Spun Rod bearing 3.8

[Jeffrv]

I have just spun #1 rod bearing. It didn't run long damaged and not under much load, so the crank, while damaged wasn't all that bad. It did have some scores, which I was able to polish out to an acceptable limit( not perfect)
I know the proper way to address this is to have the crank resurfaced, but for several reasons that just is not feasible, I have to work with what I have in frame.
The other journals are in good shape, and I have replaced them with standard bearings. The best I could find for #1 was a .001 undersized bearing, was hoping for at least a .002, but I guess they don't make them. In fact, parts for this engine are becoming an issue in Canada it seems, rather surprising as GM stuffed the 3800 into just about everything they made save full size trucks.
Now it has a noticeable play up and down on the crank, with an audible clunk as I do that.
Using plastigauge I seem to have about .004 clearance, about twice the GM spec, of .0022.
I am wondering if anyone out there has had any similar experiences with large bearing clearances, and the eventual outcome. Perhaps thicker oil helped, or has anyone found any bearings that might be more appropriate? Or have had similar clearances, did the engine last?
any input welcome, thanks
Jeff

[Stealthee]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but a lot of guys have had problems when doing backyard rebuilds on the 3800. One of the theories is about the block "twisting" when the girdle is removed. (I may be misremembering because its been years, and I am half asleep.)

Back when I was on the Grand Prix forums there were many, many people that did home rebuilds and the engine didn't even last past the start up. Some of these weren't even spun bearing issues, just "rebuild while down" type of things.

[ctesla]

Jeff,
Stealthee is right.. those 38s are a pain for shade tree tech.. not saying you can't; i'm just saying it may be the mom grocery getter, not the highway clipper anymore.. OR, it could have a very quick start and stop life..
if anyone were to make your bearing, it would be Michigan/Clevite 77..
if you can afford, it might be better for a crank kit; but if not, at minimum i'd get newer bolts and threadlock the 'p' out of them, as GM always built strong bottom ends for that 100k, zero maint.(in theory); so as close to 0 tolerence is best, or it won't be just rod#1..

[Jeffrv]

Thank you both both for your input, I realize cutting corners does come with significant risks. I am dismayed by your reports that back yard repairs seem to have such a poor success rate. I have several options to consider before deciding on exactly how I will proceed, and will update when done.
Once again, thank you
Jeff

[ctesla]

Jeff, i am not saying they are not rebuildable.. it is just way easier and cheaper to swap a salvage yard one in.. "These engines are fussy to rebuild.. You have to follow the directions in the service manual carefully and use the torque specs and steps.... And in rebuilding there are things that you should have learned from an old back in the day gearhead... Its amazing what you can learn from a guy who has rebuilt many engines and the little things you look for during the rebuild... Little things like clearance, not touching the face of the bearings with you fingers.. They have to be installed carefully and lubed very well... Any of the things you do can make this engine live for ever or spin a bearing in a hurry... In the end, it is cheaper to find a low mileage motor and give it a few updates.. Less headache too
if you cannot find a Michigan/Clevite 77 bearing for your swap, Sealed Power is another popular brand that caters to specialty sizings.. and EPWI or EPGI (engine performance warehouse/ engine parts group) in denver or wheatridge, colorado carries ALL sizes made; AND crank kits, if you want to just drop and do all..
if you can't find the size for your #1, you could have a shop weld it up, and then grind it down to the closest available size;--
but if it were me, i'd look for a 3800 in a recycle yard near you with probably less miles than yours, that is pulled/palleted and usually warrantied by salvage center for
X-days/X-miles for maybe $300-500??
put it on a stand, do all your mods (or just freshen-ups) prior to dropping in, and then rebuild yours on your own time; or strip what you want and then scrap it..

[Jeffrv]

Thank you for your thoughts ctesla, I have sent an email to enginerpower, awaiting their reply.
Unfortunately, things a bit different here in Canada than the US. Most scrapyards here dont remove engines over 8 years old, just scrap them then and there. 1995 was the last year for the Series 1 3800, so the chance of finding a decent 26 year old engine here to put in are rather slim.
While most jobbers do list parts for this engine, nobody has stock anywhere. It was for that reason we purchased to 2108 Chrysler pacifica a little over a year ago, as the rationale that renting a car when waiting for parts was cheaper than car payments got a bit thin. Many US jobbers have the parts, but shipping here can get outrageous. E bay has changed their shipping policy, may benefit seller but buyer take a pounding- set of con rod bearings listed for just under $30, but over $60 shipping!.
In the end it will come down to the economics. While I do enjoy very much driving this van, it is not a collector car worthy of sinking a huge pile of money into.
I would appreciate all who can chime in on what I would expect to need to replace if the engine were pulled. Obviously, bearing, and the crank refinished. #1 con rod shows some somme so it will have to be replaced, so heads come off. Would it be unreasonable to hope for cylinder bores to be reusable with only a cleaning? Almost 300K KM on it, regular oil changes at 5K KM, AC or Wix filters. Also lifters, cam? I would plan on refreshing at least valve guides and seals, perhaps refinish valve faces and seats, change out timing chain, oil pump.. Any thoughts on cam and balance shaft bearings?
Gm also calls out that the engine cradle to body bolts be changed out once removed, not sure where those are obtainable from.
Finally, not even sure if I can even remove the engine. I dont have access to a hoist so it will be by devising some way of lowering the cradle onto a wheeled platform and then lifting the body off it, by jacking and cribbing. Again, any input from anyone who has been there, done that will be most welcome
Sorry for the lengthy post.
Jeff

[Stealthee]

I'm not sure it would work exactly the same, but when we pulled the engine/subframe out of my cousin's 07 Civic Si we unbolted everything up top, then suspended the engine (we had a hoist) then once suspended undid the subframe bolts. We then placed a furniture dolly under it and lowered the assembly onto the dolly.

At this point we backed the hoist up and chained it to the front crash bar (we had removed the front bumper cover) and lifted the car high enough to then roll the subframe assembly out from under it.

We had placed the rear tires up on ramps so that we didn't have to lift the front super high too. Once the assembly was out from under it we lowered the car back onto jack stands.

You have to get the front pretty high for the engine to clear the bottom of the vehicle. I don't think you'll have enough height to do it with a jack. I also don't know how you'd expect to lower the engine /subframe onto a dolly without a way to suspend it.

[ctesla]

Jeff,
i feel your pain.. US during bush and obama admins had 'cash4clunker' scrap plans with planned obsolescence of non-OBDII vehicles which killed many OEM parts.. granted we still have many recycle yards that held out, but even many aftermarket components are not being made after 15-20yrs after corporate production ceased..
that said, i also know that a friend visiting from the Great White (not the 90s rock band), asked me to order an HP/Compaq laptop battery for him, as cost up there AND the shipping/taxes/tariffs; i told him i'd just buy him a new computer, jeez!
so, you are backed into corner even prior to the logistics of yanjking a whole engine; even if you found one.. that being said, your U-body engine (L27) was used in Lumina APVs (if FWD, not RWD), Olds Silouette, some Bonnevilles, Park Avenues, and Olds 88s and 98s.. so shop around.. might find one that grandpa/ma have parked in the back, when they bought a cruze or a lincoln, haha..
as far as if you were to pull and swap; if your home has a garage, a hoist can be rented; but honestly, all GM FWD vehicles, it is almost easier to disconnect everything on the K-frame, and jack/lift the car/vehicle away from the entire wheel-to-wheel: struts, eng/trans, all of it; right in front of you, and easy to walk around/work on, and then reinstall as a complete unit..
-- IF, you decide on rebuild; rather than lower end crank kit only and running the rest at current mileage, while having it out some components could be re-used such as pistons, and just hone the walls, and replace rings; but once you are here, you have to decide mild rebuild, or go a little extra for all new and know an extra 200-300k (but frame, suspension, transmission all still aging??) can be attained from engine..
but yes, at minimum timing set, oil pump; and if motor's cracked open, new cam and bearings for sure..
as to your 'cradle' bolts (K-frame), i think they are GM#10407148 ; three to five bucks ea.. i can double check this if you want; but you 'can' re-use old; just hi-strength red threadlock the crap out of them..
if you are going to hold on to the poncho, PM/DM me and i can get you an alldata dvd service disc for your vehicle..

[Blue Bowtie]

All of that having been said, it is possible to replace main and rod bearings in place, although it is no picnic.





It was marginally successful, and using the original oil pump it made a fully hot pressure in DRIVE with AC and all accessories on at 25-26 PSIG after the bearing replacement. It was marginally successful since it had around 149,950 when the bearings were changed, and I only had it for another 7 years and drove it up to 225,010 miles when I sold it, so I really don't know what the long-term success rate was.

[Blue Bowtie]

Incidentally, that was a 1995 LeSabre, using Mobil1 10W30 and a PF-52 filter. According to my notes, the worst main bearing was #2 (the thrust main). The rod bearings were all about equally worn. I ordered stock bearings since most of the wear was in the shells, not the journals.

If you go that route, be ABSOLUTELY certain that you follow the factory directions for torquing the cap bolts, NO shortcuts.

If you have a 1996 or later K engine:

1. Torque each cap bolt evenly to 26 ft/lb, working from the center caps outward;
2. Turn each cap bolt an additional 50°.

If you have an older K or L engine, the procedure is different:

1. Evenly torque all cap bolts to 52 ft/lb to seat the caps and shells, working from the center caps outward;
2. Back off each cap bolt 360° (a full turn);
3. Torque each cap bolt to 15 ft/lb;
4. Torque all cap bolts to 54 ft/lb;
5. Turn each cap bolt an additional 35°, working from the center outward;
6. Repeat the 35° additional turn in TWO MORE steps (a total of three passes) for a total of 105° after the 54 ft/lb stage.

[Jeffrv]

Thank you for the replies. Blue Bowtie, may I ask what prompted you to change the bearings out? With mine it was a sudden knock after a high RPM stint. Opening up the pan showed junk in the pan, and #1 rod clanked on the journal. There was not evidence of issues with any other bearing, both con rod and mains. I did change #,s 2 thru 6 con rods with new standard bearings. # 2 journal had a bit of scoring and was lightly polished; the rest I just cleaned and put new bearings in. The mains show no issue, and no excessive end clearance, so I am assuming they are OK- I left them alone.
It is the older L VIN, series 1 3800. 1995 is a dogs breakfast for the 3800 engine- both series 1 and series 2 with used depending on the car line. I believe only series 1 was used on the U body line
The issue is between the bearing spinning in the con rod, and scoring on the crank journal, I now have excessive clearance on the new bearing, at about .004 inch, enough that I can feel and hear play on that connecting rod as I move it.
Ctesla, I have taken your advice and contacted engine pro asking if they have custom bearings sizes available, and awaiting reply.
Jeff

[Blue Bowtie]

My motivation was my daughter running it low on oil for about a 50 mile trip, then reporting a strange noise. I thought I had trained her better than that.

[ctesla]

Bowtie is right.. bearings can be swapped in engine in; just a big pain, and that's why i mentioned just a crank kit.. i do not know if engine pro is open (stupid-vid); so if they do not return email/call, their are a couple other parts jobber and dealers that might help..
and GREAT pics Blue Bowtie.. i couldn't find any for a series I..

[Jeffrv]

Ok, bit of an update. I have sourced engine kits, and had a chat with the local machine shop I deal with. Parts and their labour going to be at the upper end of the budget, so I am asking for input from those who have done up these engines before I make the final decision.
1) Camshafts- your thoughts on reusing rather than replacing, including bearings
2) Balance shaft- None of the engine kits list bearings for that in any of their kits-is this something not normally serviced? Are the bearings ( is there a front bearing, cant see one shown in my manual) a pain to change, or better off leaving everything alone?
Reason I am asking is should the engine need to be hot tanked, bearings have to be removed. I suspect engine should be OK enough that a good varsol cleaning might suffice, and can leave, any experiences?
3) Piston pins. Machine shop indicated pistons are pressed into the rod, and the wear takes place between the pin and piston. They seemed to feel that even if I don't have to rebore oversize, it would be a good idea to change the pistons and pins with new. If its a rebore, well, a moot point.

This van will not be used as a full time daily driver, mostly summer use only, as such I am having difficulty justifying a full on rebuild. however, I don't want something to bite me in the backside a year or two down the road, so will do what it needs to make it reliable
That's all the questions for now, I am sure there will be more, thanks
Jeff

[maxwedge]

A good used engine is your best bet here. Debris from that spun bearing and resultant crank damage went all through that engine.