At what point do you give up on your Windstar?

[farns]

Looking for some thoughts/advice/encouragement/etc...

2002 Windstar, 166k miles. I bought it 4 years ago, and I'm 6 months from paying off the $4000 loan it cost me to buy this van.

Have had tons of trouble, some have been resolved, a bunch more are coming. I'm trying to decide what to do, and I'd love some feedback from you guys.

I am NOT a mechanic. However, last fall, I (through a complete miracle) succeeded in killing the 0174 codes, by performing that crazy "rip the engine apart and clean it out" routine posted by pcitizen. You know the one. Here is what I'm facing now, however....

- power steering pump is going bad. I'm trying to talk myself into tackling that one.
- Front bearings are shot. I'm told I can handle that one too... Trying to learn more.
- Tires need to be replaced, but that's just normal wear and tear. Nonetheless, I'm adding it to this list to factor in the cost.
- Tranny is going out. There's a bit of a history here... 4 years ago, right after i bought it, the tranny shredded. So I buy the van for $4000, and hurry and put $2400 into it for a complete rebuild. 18 months later, it starts acting up, and even though the work only had a 1 year warranty, the shop kept trying to make it right. They never could. It performed fine, but I constantly go the "check transmission" warning on the dash info screen after about 20 miles of driving. Well tranny shop never could figure it out, and now it's needing to be overhauled. Slips going into 2nd gear, has slipped like it's in neutral a couple times while my wife is driving, scary. I've got a new shop looking into it now, and they say overhaul. $1800 to $2500 depending on what they find.
- on top of that, we've been chasing "check charging system" errors for almost 2 years now. 2 new alternators, a new battery, and can't find anything wrong, we still have that little ghost in the machine.
- I'm sure I should replace my rotors and pads in the front while I'm doing the bearings, so there's another chunk of cash.
- door lock motor in the driver sliding door is out, we have a hard time getting the door open.
- anything else? LOL....

Here's my deal... Financially, a newer car is not really an option. If I'm going to replace this, I'm going to replace it with something on a similar level. So let's say I'm $3000 and who knows how many hours to fix all this... Which I'm going to have to borrow anyway... Do I stick with my guns and keep putting money into this van? We have 4 kids, ages 1-9, so I'm going to be in Van world for a while... I'm trying to tell myself that I just do this, and plan on keeping it another 3-5 years. That $3000 is cheaper than a new vehicle. But what else is about to go wrong? What are the "Murphy's Law" factors that I need to consider. This is a huge decision for our family... no money, no credit cards, trying to find out right now how to pay for these repairs. I just paid off my F-150 3 months ago... I'm probably going to cough up the title to finance this mess.

I would appreciate some thoughts from somebody not as emotionally fried on this issue as I am.

Farns

[12Ounce]

I feel for you. I almost advise you to get some tools and jump in!

I don't know what I would do if I had to buy car service from someone else. My '99 runs well at 340k miles .... it is expected to go to 500k, with my help.

I would recommend replacing the tranny with a Ford reman. My experience doing this has been good. Before that I had tried rebuilding (by Ford) ... the results were good, but better with the wholesale replacement. YMMV!

[olopezm]

Hi Farns,

I'm sorry to hear all of your problems, seems like a hard situation but let me tell you that the only difference between you and me is that I don't have children and have no current job... Other than that we are in the same situation with a bunch of things needing to get fixed XD.

OK, no onto your question; let me tell you that I've been contemplating the same scenario, to keep investing in my windstar or just sell it and get a new vehicle and so far the windstar wins all day long. Why? Because I now know what's wrong with it, what needs to be done and if there are any "hidden" problems or not. We are the second owners of this minivan and have put lots of money like many other people in the forum. Getting a new car is not an option, just like you, but why getting a second hand vehicle just to find out it will be the same story or perhaps even worse. People around here is not very careful with their cars, over here is like "get in the car if it starts, you're good to go; if it doesn't then take a taxi, sell the car and let someone else deal with it..." And no, there are no laws to protect customers form this kind of problems... Pretty messed up, huh...

I'll give you some hope, there is a chance that you don't need the transmission to be overhauled and instead just replace the Transmission Range Switch (TRS), if it hasn't been done, which sits on top of it and can be done by yourself in a couple of minutes. I know from the forum that many users have experienced slipping problems because of this component and were quoted with a full transmission overhaul which wasn't really needed.

AFAIK, bearings are not hard to be replaced in these models (99-03) because you only remove the 3 bolts holding them to the knuckle and it will come out easily, no need for special extractors. Removing the halfshafts, I don't know but have seen some videos in the internet in which they use a soft mallet and the halfshaft nut (which shouldn't be reused) to remove it from the hub. Try searching youtube for "halfshaft replacement". I don't know if the bearings can be replaced instead of the whole unit...

Your charging problem, you mention you have replaced all of the main components, but haven't checked or replaced the actual wiring, which degrades form the inside out with time and use. You can test everything with a digital multimeter if you're up to.

Rotors and pads need to come out when doing the front hub bearing so if you need them, it would be a good time to replace them.

Door lock motor gone, why not just installing any regular "lock cap" available at most autoparts stores and unlocking the door by yourself, then opening it electrically .

Cannot comment on steering pump since I've never done one on mine, but have done it in other cars, which wasn't difficult at all, but have read the problems with the pulley in windstars.

Hope this helps,

Oscar.

[Windstartled]

I give up on any vehicle when the frame isn't sound anymore and/or the body is deteriorated either due to accident or wear and tear. This is not fixable no matter what. In this regard and recalls notwithstanding, the Winnie is pretty reliable on the long run. In fact, the 2002 Winnie was rated most dependable minivan on the market by JD Powers in 2005, based on three years service.

Transmission and engine are self-contained components that can be fixed or replaced independently from the vehicle itself. That is the reason why many people will choose to replace those parts and keep the vehicle even though they could have purchased another used van for the same amount of money. In other words it is misguided to blame a vehicle for tranny issues if the van is in fairly good shape otherwise.

[farns]

Originally Posted by olopezm

Hi Farns,

Door lock motor gone, why not just installing any regular "lock cap" available at most autoparts stores and unlocking the door by yourself, then opening it electrically .

Thank you for the input Oscar,

I forgot to mention about the door lock... it's not about being able to do it electically, it's about being able to do it at all. The default state of the mechanism is to be "locked". So we would pull up on the little lock knob, and it would just pop right back down into locked position. Then it fell off, and now we have nothing to pull up. So our only way to open that door is to unlock it several times until it stays unlocked, and I know we're just wearing out the other motors in the process.

[Windstartled]

Originally Posted by farns

Thank you for the input Oscar,

I forgot to mention about the door lock... it's not about being able to do it electically, it's about being able to do it at all. The default state of the mechanism is to be "locked". So we would pull up on the little lock knob, and it would just pop right back down into locked position. Then it fell off, and now we have nothing to pull up. So our only way to open that door is to unlock it several times until it stays unlocked, and I know we're just wearing out the other motors in the process.

Regarding the lost knob I think it's time for you to get acquainted with the fascinating world of junkyards, they'd give it to you free of charge. You'd be amazed at what you can find there, anything from cigarette lighter for free to complete -and working- transmission for about $200 including 30-day warranty if it doesn't work

Problem with your lock is likely due to front electronic module (FEM) issues. This you can easily replace yourself, it has three bolts and computer-type connectors. You must however choose a replacement FEM that comes from a van of the same year and trim level as yours otherwise you will need to have it flashed at the dealership.

[12Ounce]

I would a slightly different guidance on the door lock. I think it is time to remove the internal trim panel and really see what's what! It may be a broken clip ... or something that needs to be reconnected. Latch innards can be very fascinating!

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by Windstartled

Regarding the lost knob I think it's time for you to get acquainted with the fascinating world of junkyards, they'd give it to you free of charge. You'd be amazed at what you can find there, anything from cigarette lighter for free to complete -and working- transmission for about $200 including 30-day warranty if it doesn't work

Problem with your lock is likely due to front electronic module (FEM) issues. This you can easily replace yourself, it has three bolts and computer-type connectors. You must however choose a replacement FEM that comes from a van of the same year and trim level as yours otherwise you will need to have it flashed at the dealership.

I'm nearly sure the problem would be the REM (rear electronic module) instead of the FEM which will only control the lighting and driver's door. REM controls the rest of the doors. I'll make sure to check the manual to clarify.

Oscar.

[Windstartled]

Originally Posted by olopezm

I'm nearly sure the problem would be the REM (rear electronic module) instead of the FEM which will only control the lighting and driver's door. REM controls the rest of the doors. I'll make sure to check the manual to clarify.

Oscar.

That's quite possible, the modules are not precisely intuitive when it comes to distinguishing between front/rear components and I'm too lazy to fire up the shop manual atm. REM is more prone to failure than FEM but easier to access for replacement.

[farns]

Ok. so we decided to breathe life back into this thing, and get another 3-5 years out of it if possible.

Last weekend, I put in new bearings and rotors, and replaced a control arm that was failing. HUGE deal for a guy like me. Took me all day, with a bunch of borrowed tools.

Got new tires put on, and they saw my tie rods were shot, so we put in new tie rods, aligned it, and whatever else... oil change, blah blah blah. Should be done with Big-O tire for a while now. So now, on to the tranny.

One shop quoted $1800 to $2500 for an overhaul. 3 year ATRA warranty.

The shop that replaced the tranny two years ago is out of business, but I found the guy that worked there, at another shop. He's been very helpful in trying help me do the right thing. He's actually pointed me at buying a tranny from a ford dealer and having them install it. It would run me $2800 installed, with a 3 year unlimited miles warranty, good at any ford dealer or any independent who will take ford rates. He felt is was the most bullet proof plan for me, since this van has had so many tranny issues, and two rebuilds, and still has issues. He thinks it's best to just clean it all out, and replace it completely.

Ford told me that they don't care who does the install. their price is $830 for R&R. My question for you guys is, is this a hugely specialized thing? I understand taking one apart and rebuilding is extremely specialized, but just removing and reinstalling, is that any easier? Could a guy like me with the help of some smart people who are mechanically inclined remove and replace a tranny? Just curious what the implications could be.

[12Ounce]

I replaced my tranny on the '99 in the driveway ... during some misty weather. Did it singlehandedly. Don't make me confess my age.....

[northern piper]

10 years ago there was an information inequity. The 2 biggest things that fell into this inequity category were insurance (car, home, life) and auto repairs. In both instances, insurance companies and car repair places knew people weren't going to really shop around because it took so much time to do, and was difficult to compare. Auto repairs manuals were non-existent unless you wanted to shell out a large amount of cash ... so people relied on "professionals".

Add the internet into the mix and voila, the consumer is empowered.

8 years ago the only thing I'd ever done was an oil change. I had an aaha! moment when my wife's van (an aerostar) was on the lift at Midas muffler and she phoned me to say that they wanted to replace every brake component on the van (to a tune of $1250) and that they wouldn't put it back together so I could take is somewhere else for another opinion. I arrived to find the front calipers dangling by their flex lines. I knew nothing about brakes, but I did know that the caliper shouldn't be hanging free. I paid for the job, ouch, and vowed to never have someone else do a repair I could learn how to do.

I now have a 2 post, 10000 pound Mohawk lift in my 3 bay garage, a 12 foot ceiling, and have done all suspension, brakes, bearings, power steering, oil, trans fluids etc... I've also amassed a bunch of tools, compressor, welder oxy acetylene..

So my advice to you... DO IT. Learn what you need to do, ask people around you, ask people here.

No longer do common consumers, if they wish, have to bow to the dealer or mechanics that just might have less info, or drive to get it, than we do.

Ok, I'm stepping off my soapbox now.

[farns]

Holy crap are you guys both serious? I asked fully expecting to hear "no no no that's only for the big dogs to do."

WOW. Well this really has me thinking now. $800 is a lot of cash. I'd LOVE to be able to save that, or at least a portion thereof. I get that it's a lot of time and work, the shops who know what they are doing say it's an 8 hour job. So factor in the "me" multiplier and it's like 37 hours. But my time is free. I've though about this place I keep hearing about (since I don't have a cool lift in my garage) it's http://www.wrench-it.com/, just down the road from me. Have you guys ever worked with a place like this?

The van is driveable. Just slips from 1 to 2 and is getting worse. I could get it there, if I thought having access to a lift, whatever tools they have, etc... would make it possible for a noob like me to do it.

So my questions are:
- if replacing the entire tranny, is there a lot of "things" that have to connect, line up, be perfect, etc...? Or is it more of a plug and play situation once you remove all the stuff to get to it.

- Does anything have to be synced up like the computer, or some kind of timing thing or anything like that?

- Play devils advocate with me... what are the things that could happen that will make me shoot myself in the femur because that will be better than knowing I just destroyed a $2000 tranny?

[Off_Timing]

Originally Posted by northern piper

10 years ago there was an information inequity. The 2 biggest things that fell into this inequity category were insurance (car, home, life) and auto repairs. In both instances, insurance companies and car repair places knew people weren't going to really shop around because it took so much time to do, and was difficult to compare. Auto repairs manuals were non-existent unless you wanted to shell out a large amount of cash ... so people relied on "professionals".

Add the internet into the mix and voila, the consumer is empowered.

8 years ago the only thing I'd ever done was an oil change. I had an aaha! moment when my wife's van (an aerostar) was on the lift at Midas muffler and she phoned me to say that they wanted to replace every brake component on the van (to a tune of $1250) and that they wouldn't put it back together so I could take is somewhere else for another opinion. I arrived to find the front calipers dangling by their flex lines. I knew nothing about brakes, but I did know that the caliper shouldn't be hanging free. I paid for the job, ouch, and vowed to never have someone else do a repair I could learn how to do.

I now have a 2 post, 10000 pound Mohawk lift in my 3 bay garage, a 12 foot ceiling, and have done all suspension, brakes, bearings, power steering, oil, trans fluids etc... I've also amassed a bunch of tools, compressor, welder oxy acetylene..

So my advice to you... DO IT. Learn what you need to do, ask people around you, ask people here.

No longer do common consumers, if they wish, have to bow to the dealer or mechanics that just might have less info, or drive to get it, than we do.

Ok, I'm stepping off my soapbox now.

Northern Piper....I am soooo there. My hat is off to you sir.

Definitely agree with you...Don't ever go to Midas.

I grew up learning basic car maintenance by watching, and then trying.

I haven't touched transmission, but I do all my brake work, replaced exhaust, replaced a head gasket, disassembled (and re-assembled) a small block engine, and so on.....learning along the way.

My tool collection pretty much grows with every project. My latest addition, an impact gun (corded electric) and a nice set of impact sockets (all on sale for the upcoming Father's day). I keep trying to convince my wife to let me get a lift...still trying.

I don't have the technical skill you guys have, so I'm grateful you guys are here.

If it were me, and I had the time (I'm a desk jockey...long white collar hours), I'd go for it.

[12Ounce]

I had a jack ... but no lift. I would not know what to do with a lift! I raised and secured the front end of the car about a foot off ground, and lowered the subframe. Since I also rebuilt the engine .... I think I took a week or better. Really not rocket science!

I have an old posting showing this somewhere here ... but the photos are disappearing!