Code P1870 again, new valve body already

1998,5.7L, 4L60E, 4x4, 3.42 rear end. 115,000miles on truck. Previous owner installed reman trans at 70,000 miles due to "sun gears exploded,.. manufacture defect in original tranny".
Getting hard shifts after 30-mile highway drive. After the second 30-mile trip I get check engine light and code P1870 (trans. slipping). Trans oil is clean, not burnt, and no major debris in pan.
Trans shop installed valve body kit $280. Still same problem.
Then Trans shop replaced valve body with re-manufactured VB (no $ charge). Says trans fluid is clean, very small amount debris (maybe brass) found in pan. Same problem P1870 code on after two highway test drives.
If I reset the code and drive around town, or short hwy miles, the code does not set, only after 2 consecutive trips of 30+ miles. I understand from reading many internet sites, that this is the proper funtion of the P1870 code setting logic.
Trans shop #1 suggests to change Torque converter, but says he will take a long, 30 minute drive with a scanner before starting, in case something else shows up.
Trans shop #2 after my description says for sure it needs a rebuild because 3rd/4th clutches are slipping.

Any advice??
Can the scanner really determine which component, such as Torque converter is causing the slip? I just don't want to buy a TC and then come back for the whole tranny rebuild.
How hard is it to drop the tranny and replace Torque Converter DIY? Shop wants about $300 labor + 160 parts. I see rebuilt TC's for sale for about $125-150

Code 1870 leads to internal lose of transmission pressure.

No band aids there.

Rebuild or replace it and be done with it.

Thanks , but I'm just trying to make a fact-based diagnosis of the problem.
From what I've read, P1870 is set when the PCM senses slippage between crankshaft and driveshaft. Your advice would make sense only if this if is incorrect, so please correct me if needed.
Does P1870 sense crankshaft-to-driveshaft or does it sense transmission-input-shaft to driveshaft??
When slippage is detected, the PCM raises the pressure to try to limit the slippage.

My question is if a high-end scanner is able to provide enough information to determine if the slippage is in the torque converter or if the slippage is in the transmission itself.

A typical trans rebuild includes a new Torque converter, so the question is usually not answered (was the trans slipping? or was the torque converter clutch slipping?)
The total rebuild solution does not find the source of the problem, and the conventional wisdom of "replace it all" is only to the benefit of the mechanic that was unable to make the diagnosis. Why spend money on parts that have not failed???

Thanks , but I'm just trying to make a fact-based diagnosis of the problem.
From what I've read, P1870 is set when the PCM senses slippage between crankshaft and driveshaft. Your advice would make sense only if this if is incorrect, so please correct me if needed.
Does P1870 sense crankshaft-to-driveshaft or does it sense transmission-input-shaft to driveshaft??
When slippage is detected, the PCM raises the pressure to try to limit the slippage.

My question is if a high-end scanner is able to provide enough information to determine if the slippage is in the torque converter or if the slippage is in the transmission itself.

A typical trans rebuild includes a new Torque converter, so the question is usually not answered (was the trans slipping? or was the torque converter clutch slipping?)
The total rebuild solution does not find the source of the problem, and the conventional wisdom of "replace it all" is only to the benefit of the mechanic that was unable to make the diagnosis. Why spend money on parts that have not failed???

To answer your first question.
Yes a good scanner will pinpoint where the slippage is.

But the root cause of slippage is internal transmission pressure leakage.

There is a lot of band aids like valve body and converter replacement if the converter is where it is slipping.

But it always goes back to internal pressure leakage as the root cause.

And the only long term fix is to fix the internal leakage.

Which will take a transmission rebuild or replacement.

Good Luck

Diagnostic Information on DTC P0894 and P1870 #02-07-30-001A - (02/11/2004)
Diagnostic Information on DTC P0894 and P1870
2000-2004 Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003-2004 HUMMER H2
with 4L60-E or 4L65-E Automatic Transmission
This bulletin is being revised to include additional model years and additional diagnostic information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 02-07-30-001 (Section 07 -- Transmission/Transaxle).
Diagnostic trouble codes (DTC) P0894 and P1870, Transmission Component Slipping, may have different root causes. The following diagnostic tips are provided to assist in accurately repairing the condition.
Corporate Bulletin Number 01-07-30-023A, dated November 2001, is intended for 1996-1999 vehicles with more than 32,000 km (20,000 mi). This bulletin addresses wear in the valve body TCC isolator/regulator bore, which can cause DTC P1870. This wear condition is not the cause of DTC P0894 or P1870 on any 2000 model year vehicle built after January 15, 2000, or any 2001 or newer vehicles as the valve body used on these vehicles has been revised to prevent the wear condition.
Corporate Bulletin Number 99-07-30-005, dated March 1999, should be used to help with diagnosis of these DTC's. This bulletin will help to determine if the DTC is caused by the TCC system or by a slipping internal transmission component such as a clutch or band.
Slip speeds greater than about 250 rpm at steady state driving are caused by a slipping clutch or band.
Slip speeds below 250 rpm at steady state driving are usually caused by the TCC not applying but may also be caused by a slipping clutch or band.
A plugged or restricted TCC apply fluid orifice (238, located in the pump) may cause DTC P0894 or P1870, especially in low mileage vehicles with less than 8,000 km (5,000 mi).
A converter clutch valve (224, located in the pump), which does not have full travel of 13 mm (0.5 in) or is stuck in the off position may cause DTC P0894 or P1870. Inspect the valve for chips, debris, nicks or burrs. Also, inspect the springs (225 and 226) to make sure they are not limiting valve travel. A spring that is not fully wound may catch in the bore, limit valve travel and cause DTC P0894 or P1870.
A cracked or leaking TCC solenoid (part of harness 66) may cause DTC P0894 or P1870. Use solenoid test kit J 44246 to test the operation of this solenoid.
A cracked or leaking TCC PWM solenoid (396) may also cause DTC P0894 or P1870.
When attempting to diagnose a DTC P0894 or P1870, it is important to also refer to the appropriate Service Manual for further possible causes of this condition.

The thing with this P1870 code is that it inhibits TCC lock up when this code is active. As MT-2500 stated, a high end scan tool is required. The scan tool can command the TCC to lock up and then it can be determined, in the hands of a knowledgeable person, if the problem is the in the TCC components, which there are several, or other internal issues.

In the trouble shooting tree for this code there are 13 different steps, 10 of which require inspections of internal components.

One question for you. Does your tranny shift into reverse??

One question for you. Does your tranny shift into reverse??
Yes Reverse works fine. All shifts seem to work fine until P1870 comes on then hard shifting starts.
Tonite I took a short drive 2 miles pulling small boat and the backed into garage, uphill driveway into garage.. About 30 minutes later I crawled under truck..engine oil pan and trans oil pan were cool to touch. Removed small access cover to Torque converter and stuck fingers in to find Torque converter was very hot. Is this a clue??
I have appt. with Trans shop #1 Tuesday. He said he will take for a long drive with scanner connected, and he invited me to ride along. Maybe I'll learn something if I can make time to go along.

Trans. Shop #1 thinks they got it fixed. It was a bad sensor that turns on TCC. $50.00 sensor was much better than $1400.00 rebuild. Need some highway time before I'm really comfortable that it's fixed.

Trans. Shop #1 thinks they got it fixed. It was a bad sensor that turns on TCC. $50.00 sensor was much better than $1400.00 rebuild. Need some highway time before I'm really comfortable that it's fixed.

Hi herkyhawki
Am having the same problem it drove me crazy, could you please give us more details about the sensor you changed? and if that solved the issue?

thanks

Thanks (not) for bringing back a bad memory.
I'll skip the longest part of the story that included me buying a torque converter that I probably did not need.
The tans. shop finally figured out it was not the sensor, but a valve in the tranny. I don't rmember what it was called, but was not a solenoid valve. It was a $130 spool-type valve that has something to do with locking up the torque converter. Transmission has worked perfectly ever since, and code never came back.

Thanks (not) for bringing back a bad memory.
I'll skip the longest part of the story that included me buying a torque converter that I probably did not need.
The tans. shop finally figured out it was not the sensor, but a valve in the tranny. I don't rmember what it was called, but was not a solenoid valve. It was a $130 spool-type valve that has something to do with locking up the torque converter. Transmission has worked perfectly ever since, and code never came back.

Am sorry bringing back this bad experience, am living it right now, i had changed the whole tranny with a used one but it did not fix the problem, I know the valve you are talking about it is the correction kit for the worn TCC valve, I hope you never face such a problem in the future.
I'll buy this kit and see if it would solve the problem

Thanks Man

Am sorry bringing back this bad experience, am living it right now, i had changed the whole tranny with a used one but it did not fix the problem, I know the valve you are talking about it is the correction kit for the worn TCC valve, I hope you never face such a problem in the future.
I'll buy this kit and see if it would solve the problem

Thanks Man


P-1870 means "Transmission component slipping". A very common problem with these transmissions which sets a P-1870 is 2 valves in the valve body, the TCC regulator and isolator valves. The reason for the problem is these valves wear out their respective bores, the converter clutch apply oil passes by the worn valves lowering the apply pressure of the converter clutch. The clutch then starts slipping and chattering, sets a P-1870 and maxes out the line pressure causing harsh shifts. You replaced your transmission with a used transmission which most likely had the same common problem. The way I usually fix these is with a kit from Sonnax. The valve body is removed, both tcc regulator and isolator valves are removed, their bores reamed, sleeves installed with new valves. This is what needs to be done and will cure 95% of P-1870 issues.


transman

P-1870 means "Transmission component slipping". A very common problem with these transmissions which sets a P-1870 is 2 valves in the valve body, the TCC regulator and isolator valves. The reason for the problem is these valves wear out their respective bores, the converter clutch apply oil passes by the worn valves lowering the apply pressure of the converter clutch. The clutch then starts slipping and chattering, sets a P-1870 and maxes out the line pressure causing harsh shifts. You replaced your transmission with a used transmission which most likely had the same common problem. The way I usually fix these is with a kit from Sonnax. The valve body is removed, both tcc regulator and isolator valves are removed, their bores reamed, sleeves installed with new valves. This is what needs to be done and will cure 95% of P-1870 issues.


transman

Transman thanks for your paticipation here, but what I would like to clearify is: I have a 4L80e tranny, and sonnax sales only the TCC regulator valve kit (which is sold in either valve/spring kit or valve/spring/sleeve kit),

And since you are TransMan, could you please guide me on how to ream the valve body, since the installation of the Sonnax kit needs a special tool, that is not available in my country and it gonna cost about 200$, is there anyway to ream the valve body without using Sonnax tool?

Am much leaning toward the sleeve kit.

Here are the kit that am referring to:

1- Regulator Kit: http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=3624&pl=3

2- Regulator Kit with sleeve: http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=4975&pl=3

3- Special Tool (which I cant afford and not available in my country): http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=4976&pl=3

check this out http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/4L80E_transmission_parts_s/96.htm?searching=Y&sort=5&cat=96&show=30&page=1

check this out http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/4L80E_transmission_parts_s/96.htm?searching=Y&sort=5&cat=96&show=30&page=1

I have just emailed them looking for the sleeve kit, and that was just 5 min before your post, :)

Transman thanks for your paticipation here, but what I would like to clearify is: I have a 4L80e tranny, and sonnax sales only the TCC regulator valve kit (which is sold in either valve/spring kit or valve/spring/sleeve kit),

And since you are TransMan, could you please guide me on how to ream the valve body, since the installation of the Sonnax kit needs a special tool, that is not available in my country and it gonna cost about 200$, is there anyway to ream the valve body without using Sonnax tool?

Am much leaning toward the sleeve kit.

Here are the kit that am referring to:

1- Regulator Kit: http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=3624&pl=3

2- Regulator Kit with sleeve: http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=4975&pl=3

3- Special Tool (which I cant afford and not available in my country): http://www.sonnax.com/part_summary.php?id=4976&pl=3


What country are you in?? Your profile says Royal Oak Michigan. Are you currently not in the USA???
Whats the year, make,model and engine size of the vehicle you are referring to?? We'll get this figured out for you, I just need this other info to look up the proper parts. Reaming the valve body requires special reamers that are quite expensive. Give me the above info and I'll check it for you.


transman

What country are you in?? Your profile says Royal Oak Michigan. Are you currently not in the USA???
Whats the year, make,model and engine size of the vehicle you are referring to?? We'll get this figured out for you, I just need this other info to look up the proper parts. Reaming the valve body requires special reamers that are quite expensive. Give me the above info and I'll check it for you.


transman

am from the middle east, I used to be in royal oak MI but not anymore, BTY i have full access to the service manual of my car from www.alldatadiy.com, my car specs are:
Silverado 2006, 4WD, MT1 (4l80-e), U (6 Ltr V-8 gas),

In my country there are no ASE tech nor a certified technicians, and I have not seen any one able to repair or ream the valve body at all (even the trans guru wont do it), furthermore the valve body cost double than it is in the US :(

You should do some testing first.
Did the transmission places test it out for where the slipping is?

Most of the time internal transmission pressure is the main cause of that code.
The valve body kit may help for a while but is usually only a band aid on real problem.

First thing Run a good transmission scanner test Find out what and where the actual slipping is.
And what is setting code.

VCM problems and some sensors can set that code.
If you have all data go threw the flow charts and TSB for that code.

am from the middle east, I used to be in royal oak MI but not anymore, BTY i have full access to the service manual of my car from www.alldatadiy.com (http://www.alldatadiy.com), my car specs are:
Silverado 2006, 4WD, MT1 (4l80-e), U (6 Ltr V-8 gas),

In my country there are no ASE tech nor a certified technicians, and I have not seen any one able to repair or ream the valve body at all (even the trans guru wont do it), furthermore the valve body cost double than it is in the US :(


Oh man, sorry to hear that. You are going to end up paying one way or the other. Can you find another transmission or take the one transmission back and exchange it for another used one?? Did they give you any kind of warranty on the used one like 30 days?? Also, when you installed the used trans did it come with a converter or did you use the original converter from the trans you took out?? I dont think there is any way you are going to come out of this cheap, the valve body kits will have to be shipped probably very expensive then you dont have anyone to install it. An entire valve body will probably be your best bet if you cant find another trans.


transman

Thank you guys for keeping up this thread, I do really appreciate all the advices here.

Am sorry I did not clarify all the repairs and what I have done to solve the problem, here are more explanations for the whole story from the beginning.

Problem Statement:

The vehicle runs and shifts prefect once it is started, but after highway drive when the car comes to full stop (engine still running) then it would shift very hard/harsh 2-3 and 3-4 shifts, but if the engine is shutdown for 5 min then it would be perfect until another highway drive.
During the highway speeds I can't feel any TCC lockup.

Diagnosis made:
1- I have run OBD2 and it shows P0894 "Transmission Component Slipping", this code is equivalent to P1870 on older GM cars, (there are no p1870 in the service manual of my 2006 HD silverado)

2- Run Tech2 and reflashed the PCM to factory setting.

3- There are no technician who is willing to run a comprehensive tech2 diagnoses simply because they either do not know how or they can't read english although I have offered them a big money (trouble what they ask for a regular scan) (guys do not laugh am really serious here :)


Repairs done so far:

1- changed AFT (was very nice red/pink color) with the filter.
2- Changed the force motor, TCC PWM sol.
3- Flash the Cooler.
4- I have removed the 20 pin connection and the PCM harness and I went through each wire looking for shorts, and there was non.
5- Changed the whole transmission with a used one but I have experienced the same problem, which lead me to a conclusion that the used tranny was defected, so I returned my original tranny.


What really am leaning to is the following:
after searching all over the WWW and contacting guys having the same problem, Am thinking that the Sonnax kit would be a cheap try to do, but
there are two Sonnax kit, the first one is a bolton solution but it would work only if the bore is unworn, the second kit needs the valve body to be reamed by using the special tool (200$), so am in the process of figuring out how to ream the valve body without the special tool!!


This trouble is a nightmare specially when you deal with non certified technicians and with high cost parts!!!

FYI:
-OEM T/C cost above 1000$ and they are special order that would take three week for delivery (this is stealership price)
-OEM Valve body costs approximately the same as the T/C
- junk yards T/C costs about 300$, and I dont think it is a T/C problem since there are no T/C DTC shown at all, beside there are no TCC shudder that I can feel.
- I have tried to rent Tech2 from technician but they all refused, although I did not ever work on tech2 before, but I think I can handle it :rolleyes:

So Much Thanks in Advance

Transman, I have changed the whole tranny including the TC, but since that did not solve the problem I have returned back my original tranny and TC (there was 30 days warranty, as you mentioned ),,, regarding shipping small items from the US such as VB, small things that is not a problem for me I have a Post Office Box in the US and they would ship anything with a very reasonable price and within 5 days, so when it comes to buying such things, the shipping wont be a problem

Shade Tree,

You CANT ream that valve body without the special reamers so dont even try. They are expensive but if you mess up the vb you're looking at a whole lot more.




transman

This post started with a 98 transmission.
Yours is a 2006 4L80E right?
Be aware that the Newer transmission have different problem.

This TSB pertains to the 4L-60-E
In it it advises that the newer valve body's have been improved and do no longer have the valve problem.
In other words yours should already have the newer valve body unless the transmission shop slipped you a older one.

Diagnostic Information on DTC P0894 and P1870 #02-07-30-001A - (02/11/2004)
Diagnostic Information on DTC P0894 and P1870
2000-2004 Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003-2004 HUMMER H2
with 4L60-E or 4L65-E Automatic Transmission
This bulletin is being revised to include additional model years and additional diagnostic information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 02-07-30-001 (Section 07 -- Transmission/Transaxle).
Diagnostic trouble codes (DTC) P0894 and P1870, Transmission Component Slipping, may have different root causes. The following diagnostic tips are provided to assist in accurately repairing the condition.
Corporate Bulletin Number 01-07-30-023A, dated November 2001, is intended for 1996-1999 vehicles with more than 32,000 km (20,000 mi). This bulletin addresses wear in the valve body TCC isolator/regulator bore, which can cause DTC P1870. This wear condition is not the cause of DTC P0894 or P1870 on any 2000 model year vehicle built after January 15, 2000, or any 2001 or newer vehicles as the valve body used on these vehicles has been revised to prevent the wear condition.
Corporate Bulletin Number 99-07-30-005, dated March 1999, should be used to help with diagnosis of these DTC's. This bulletin will help to determine if the DTC is caused by the TCC system or by a slipping internal transmission component such as a clutch or band.
Slip speeds greater than about 250 rpm at steady state driving are caused by a slipping clutch or band.
Slip speeds below 250 rpm at steady state driving are usually caused by the TCC not applying but may also be caused by a slipping clutch or band.
A plugged or restricted TCC apply fluid orifice (238, located in the pump) may cause DTC P0894 or P1870, especially in low mileage vehicles with less than 8,000 km (5,000 mi).
A converter clutch valve (224, located in the pump), which does not have full travel of 13 mm (0.5 in) or is stuck in the off position may cause DTC P0894 or P1870. Inspect the valve for chips, debris, nicks or burrs. Also, inspect the springs (225 and 226) to make sure they are not limiting valve travel. A spring that is not fully wound may catch in the bore, limit valve travel and cause DTC P0894 or P1870.
A cracked or leaking TCC solenoid (part of harness 66) may cause DTC P0894 or P1870. Use solenoid test kit J 44246 to test the operation of this solenoid.
A cracked or leaking TCC PWM solenoid (396) may also cause DTC P0894 or P1870.
When attempting to diagnose a DTC P0894 or P1870, it is important to also refer to the appropriate Service Manual for further possible causes of this condition.

MT,

While GM did make big improvements to the later valve bodies, they are definitely not without their problems. I have had to sleeve quite a few of them, although a great deal less than I used to do. The regulator valves in any valve body tend to wear fast mostly because regulator valves are very "busy" valves. The P-0894 almost always is in the TCC circuit. It would be nice though if he could get some more help from the trans guys over there. I guess he's kind of stuck.


transman

Thanks for the info transman618

You experience on them is a lot better info than what GM tells us.

Yes
Shade Tree Mec is in a bad spot on trying to fix it.

Here is several USA transmission parts places he may be able to get a rebuilt valve body for it.

For good used or reman parts, VB's rebuilt and tested some use Carlyn for almost all of there "hard parts" and they ship everywhere. (800)220-1774. For soft parts, solenoids (most), mounts, axles and more other stuff then you can shake a stick at call (800)220-0020 Part-Rite and ask for Bill.

Part Rite 800 225 0070


Also Transtar
http://www.transtarindustries.com/
1-800 446 7171 St Louis Mo. 800 no.

Good Luck Shade Tree Mec
and let us know how it goes.

777 Stickman,
My reverse was lost, got the P1870 code, a little whining noticeable. You asked this question like you knew what was up and that wasn't the last poster's issue but IS mine.

What are my courses of action here?

Replace parts?
Replace entire transmission?

Thanks

welcome to our forum NEW member.



with issues you have start a new post. give year model mileage. also include any work done and/or things checked .

problems like this usually mean the transmission needs a rebuild. having a recommended shop rebuild your transmission with the proper quality parts and a good 1 year minimum warrantee. no warrantee or a short one usually means crap job/parts.

only use the new dexron VI fluid. dexron III has been deleted for use in these transmissions.

WHOH! That was near 3 years ago and I'm not really a tranny guy. With rev gone could be the sunshell or something else??

My suggestion to you is post a new THREAD with all the needed info such as year, model, motor, tranny, code numbers, symptoms. etc. The more info you supply the better will be the replies you get.

Hi all. New member. I have a 2000 Chev S10 2.2L w/4L60E. Problem is random shift to third at highway speeds. only between 60-65 mph. Other than that it shifts fine, no clunks, no slipping, or hard shifting, has reverse. Code is P1870, intermittent Check Engine light, Intermittent issue. When random shift occurs, still have trans grip when accelerating. Also when shift occurs, release throttle & shifts itself back to 4th, drives fine for a minute or so then downshifts again. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a scanner capable of reading trans data. Any ideas & suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Trans was rebuilt about 18 months ago, recent fluid/filter service, cleaned throttle body, checked brake pedal switch operation & voltage, have yet to check shift solenoid & TCC solenoid voltages. Thank you for your time.

Hi all. New member. I have a 2000 Chev S10 2.2L w/4L60E. Problem is random shift to third at highway speeds. only between 60-65 mph. Other than that it shifts fine, no clunks, no slipping, or hard shifting, has reverse. Code is P1870, intermittent Check Engine light, Intermittent issue. When random shift occurs, still have trans grip when accelerating. Also when shift occurs, release throttle & shifts itself back to 4th, drives fine for a minute or so then downshifts again. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a scanner capable of reading trans data. Any ideas & suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Trans was rebuilt about 18 months ago, recent fluid/filter service, cleaned throttle body, checked brake pedal switch operation & voltage, have yet to check shift solenoid & TCC solenoid voltages. Thank you for your time.

This post is old and need to be put to rest.
Start a new thread and give all info.
And remember you are going to need a transmission capable scanner to get codes and read out data to repair it with out the old shot gun repair of throwing parts at it.