3.8 coolant loss help

I have a 1997 buick lesabre with the 3.8 v6 (k) engine. It ran hot the other day and I could see white smoke on acceleration, but not everytime I accelerated. The oil does not have any water in it. But Water is getting on top of my pistions. I removed the plastic cover (throttle body?) from off the top of the intake. The top of the intake is full of water. Is this normal? Could it be head gaskets or intake gaskets? I am puzzled as to why water would be in this plastic cover. The acceleration linkage and air cleaner attaches to this cover. Any help you guys can give will be appreciated.

I think your describing the upper intake manifold. It sounds like water is getting in through your inlet for air for the engine. Perhaps the air is humid, and was allowed to cool, releasing water. dry out your intake, air filter box, and connecting hoses, and see if they get wet again.

Are you sure its not coolant?? Look closely at the large hole underneath near the throttle body! If it looks like it is melted than replace the whole intake, upper as well as the lower intake. The lower intake has a tube coming out of it which is the EGR passage. The heat in this tube melts the plastic intake. The new lower intake has a smaller size tube to prevent the melting.

I just changed the lower intake gaskets a month or so ago. Also replaced the thermostat and radiator hoses. I was proud of myself.

Am looking to buy a 97-99 Lesabre, I read somewhere that Buick/GM took steps to correct the potential coolant loss problem by using a metal intake rather than plastic so the potential melting problem is avoided?

Am I better off with a 99 or no?

Thanks

A metal upper intake is new on the 2004 models only. No retrofit is made.

The melting of the intake was addressed in 1999, but they have new coolant leak concenrs with the 2000 to 2003 which is covered by a recall. No recall for pre 2000 models.

I have a 1997 buick lesabre with the 3.8 v6 (k) engine. It ran hot the other day and I could see white smoke on acceleration, but not everytime I accelerated. The oil does not have any water in it. But Water is getting on top of my pistions. I removed the plastic cover (throttle body?) from off the top of the intake. The top of the intake is full of water. Is this normal? Could it be head gaskets or intake gaskets? I am puzzled as to why water would be in this plastic cover. The acceleration linkage and air cleaner attaches to this cover. Any help you guys can give will be appreciated.

MY WIFE'S CAR IS A 1999 BUICK LESABRE AND WAS USING COOLANT UP AND WE SAW NO LEAKS. I SUSPECTED AND INTERNAL LEAK. I TOOK IT IN AND THE UPPER PLENUM (AIR INTAKE MANIFOLD IS CRACKED BY THE EGR. THIS IS USUALLY A PROBLEM FOR THE 3.1 V6 ENGINES. OURS IS THE 3.8. GM SAID NO RECALLS PER DEALER LOOK-UP ON ITS SERVER TO GM. IT IS A PIECE OF PLASTIC! I WAS SHOCKED TO SEE A PLASTIC INTAKE MANIFOLD WELL THEY CALL IT UPPER PLENUM. IT HAS A LOWER FOR A HEAT SHIELD. WELL GOOD BAIT AND SWITCH ON A CAR THAT IS NOW CHEAPENED IN MY MIND. $1200.00 APPROX TO REPLACE BOTH UPPER AND LOWER, NEW PLATNUM PLUGS, SQIURT OIL IN CYLINDERS, A SHOT OF ETHER IN EACH, AND NEW OIL AND OIL FILTER.
THEN GET IT RUNNING AND CHECK COMPRESSION TO SEE IF CYLINDARS WERE RUINED BY GETTING WASHED DOWN.
GOOD LUCK AND PUT PRESSURE ON GM FOR A RECALL!!!

1999 Buick LeSabre leaking coolant internally, misfiring on computer. Replaced ALL gaskets but not the plastic manifold plentum junk thing. (Car for Sale) Put back together and ran great for 2 minutes then filled back up with water, Water seen in different pistons and now water in the oil Pan. Need to win lottery or get help knowing what to do to fix this car.

very same problem here also....plastic intake manifold cracked and allowed coolant and water to go out engine and exhaust....was 100 miles from home....1998 lasabre 3800 v6....total towing and replacing everything was around 600 bucks...this is a sleeper...they know about it.... bulletin #01-06-01-007A (7-18-2001) Doc ID 812024....need to get a class action suit going...i just read over 34 seperate post at another car place about the very same problem...

mrsboatdoc@yahoo.com

I've worked for GM dealers for the last 27 years and owned only GM products but it seems that since the mid 1980's their quality has gone downhill. They will use less reliable parts if they can save $2, and when it breaks down after 36,000 miles they issue a service bullitin explaining the way it should have been manufactured the first time. The customer is responsible for the cost.
When you contact corporate headquarters they pass the buck back to the dealer. :screwy:
I have the 3.8 engine and intend to change the upper manifold before it goes. Also see KenCo.com for a repair to the EGR port so you won't have to change the lower manifold to the new improved design.
Other than that I love my BUICK.

very same problem here also....plastic intake manifold cracked and allowed coolant and water to go out engine and exhaust....was 100 miles from home....1998 lasabre 3800 v6....total towing and replacing everything was around 600 bucks...this is a sleeper...they know about it.... bulletin #01-06-01-007A (7-18-2001) Doc ID 812024....need to get a class action suit going...i just read over 34 seperate post at another car place about the very same problem...

mrsboatdoc@yahoo.com


Traded my 2000 in with 41K on the clock, loved the ride, the power...other than that, the car was junk..rattles in the dash, squeak from the drivers seat, a bad steering gear, a bad tie rod, interior trim came off the door, the alternator going, I got out before the coolant issue reared it's ugly head. And the dealer told me all of these things were normal. Another quality GM product, the same folks who used the cheap tail gate support cables for their trucks...used to love GM..now i won't buy another one.

very same problem here also....plastic intake manifold cracked and allowed coolant and water to go out engine and exhaust....was 100 miles from home....1998 lasabre 3800 v6....total towing and replacing everything was around 600 bucks...this is a sleeper...they know about it.... bulletin #01-06-01-007A (7-18-2001) Doc ID 812024....need to get a class action suit going...i just read over 34 seperate post at another car place about the very same problem...

mrsboatdoc@yahoo.com

Is this a problem on 90's as well?

I think it applies to GM products with the 3.8 litre "K" engine. On my 95 lesabre the 8th digit of the VIN is the engine code. If it is a "K" and you have the plastic upper intake check your EGR valve plumbing. The hot exhaust gas hose will melt the plastic intake. Also search the pontiac bonneville directory for coolant loss for more info. I am not sure which model years are affected by this.

Bulletin 01-06-01-007A refers to 3.8 engine vin K for the following models
1995 - 1997 Riviera
1995 - 1998 LeSabre, Park Ave, Bonneville, Eighty Eight
1996 - 1998 Regal
1998 Lumina, Monte Carlo, Intrigue
1997 - 1998 Grand Prix
1995 - 1996 Ninety Eight

The bulletin instructs you to replace BOTH the upper and lower manifolds. The kit from KenCo will save you replacing the lower. It's expensive for 2 little parts but saves you a lot of work. The dealer I got it from did not recommend the Dorman replacement manifold. They said it didn't last like the GM ones. (Once you eliminate the cause of the failure). I saw a Bonneville with only 60,000 that melted right thru to the coolant passage. Engine was locked solid. Had to take out the spark plugs to see if it would turn. The overflow jar was full but the radiator empty :eek7:

I just bought a 99 lesabre and had the same problem within 3 days. I have the car back at the dealer. I have done some research since and found that the problem is in the design of the plastic Plenum. They are not necessarily cracking, but there is an egr valve that slips into a hole in the plenum. The egr easily exceeds 500 degrees and eventually causes the hold to deteriorate. Close to this hole are water jackets that cool the top end of the engine. Pitting starts to occur and eventually lets coolant be drawn into the lower intake. This is because GM wanted to save .20 by not putting a metal sleve in the plenum. Ken-co has designed a fix for this, but will not sell to the public. You can call them to find a dealer near you that will sell it to you. Less than $50 if you can install it yourself. The good news is you only have to do it once. If you get it fixed at the dealer, expect to fix it again sometime after about 30K miles. I like the car and want it back, so I hope the dealer will make it right. Mine ended up with coolant throught the engine and it has to be torn completely down. I will try to let you know how it goes.

Doug

Bulletin 01-06-01-007A refers to 3.8 engine vin K for the following models
1995 - 1997 Riviera
1995 - 1998 LeSabre, Park Ave, Bonneville, Eighty Eight
1996 - 1998 Regal
1998 Lumina, Monte Carlo, Intrigue
1997 - 1998 Grand Prix
1995 - 1996 Ninety Eight

The bulletin instructs you to replace BOTH the upper and lower manifolds. The kit from KenCo will save you replacing the lower. It's expensive for 2 little parts but saves you a lot of work. The dealer I got it from did not recommend the Dorman replacement manifold. They said it didn't last like the GM ones. (Once you eliminate the cause of the failure). I saw a Bonneville with only 60,000 that melted right thru to the coolant passage. Engine was locked solid. Had to take out the spark plugs to see if it would turn. The overflow jar was full but the radiator empty :eek7:

Has G M corrected the intake plenum and TCC and oil consumption problems in the current models? I would be hard pressed to buy another LaSabre.
Thanks,Fred

they have not corrected the problem, they still have plastic upper intake plenums and they will all leak at some point or another it a poor design on a good motor. thanks engineers..

My VIN has an L for the 8th digit, does this mean I do not have anything to worry about? Also, if the hot EGR tube is what is causing the problem, couldn't you just remove the EGR system and plug the hole?

Has G M corrected the intake plenum and TCC and oil consumption problems in the current models? I would be hard pressed to buy another LaSabre.
Thanks,Fred

That was fixed in 1999. The 2000 and up had a sealing recall around the air intake. They put coolant antileak back in like they used to do at the factory but had quit in 2000 and put on larger bolts to hold the intake and throttle body together.

Thanks for everyones input. I was glad to find a solution for the coolent leak in the intake for my. I replaced the upper manifold in an afternoon. It is holding after 2-days. I hope I never have to do this again.

Coming from a engineering background I was shocked to see the how the coolent ran from the lower intake manifold to the throttle body (through the PLASTIC upper manifold). This must have been a bandaided last minute solution by the engine manufacturer. My guess is the throttle body iced up and wasn't found till too late. The quickest and cheapest solution was probably to route the coolent through the upper intake manifold. The real solution could have been to short the intake manifold and lengthen the throttle body. The coolent should never have been run to the throttle body this way. The coolent and the EGR exhaust port probably should run through metal-to-metal surfaces only. Another factor that could cause the upper intake and throttle body gaskets to is wear from vibration. My throttle body had a one bracket supporting it to the lower intake or head. Combine the vibration with heat and you know the rest, a hybrid engine that runs on gasoline and Dex-cool.

A posible design fix could have to design the manifold so the coolent doesn't leak into the intake and leak. A couple extra gasket linings would have done this.

Also, the EGR is definitely shouldn't be close to a plastic surface. Maybe this should have been ported directly to the throttle body, therby reducing the need for the coolent to supply the heat.

From the original design of the TPI (Tuned port injection) motors built in 1985, GM did a fine job running the coolant through the throttle body (all aluminum) and the EGR was built into the aluminum intake. Therefore, we never had a problem until the invention of plastic intakes. I assume that a co-op Engineering student in training, designed a plastic intake and convinced his boss and Sr. staff that they could increase their bonus potential with a new cost savings idea, and they all jumped on the gravy train. I spent 40 years inside "Corporate America" and know how the system works. Penny pinching is the only way to increase the "bottom line" and get those big bonuses. :iceslolan

Plastic is cheap, and the throttle body still needs heat to keep the throttle plate from freezing in extreme temperatures, therefore the design was implemented without long term testing. :mad:

Ford also jumped on the gravy train and used a similar design, however at least they had enough balls to do a recall their cars with leaking intakes! :grinyes:
GM will never have a set like Ford! :lol2:

I almost forgot, my car was a 1998 Buick Lasabre custom, V6 3.8L (k) engine, 42000 mi.

I think I blame the wear on the gaskets more from the vibration and not the EGR heat. The gaskets near to (between upper and lower intakes) and on the throttle body were worn smooth (compared to the newly purchased manifold). This was probably due to the upper (plastic) intake manifold supporting the throttle body's weight. No signs of melting plastic around the EGR exhaust outlet, however, this still cannot be considered a good thing. I probably could have gotten away with a new gaskets ($50.00), but replaced the whole intake manifold instead ($150.00). The longest part of the ordeal was removing/re-installing the fuel rails and injectors. The changeover took about 5 hours.

Thanks again for everyone’s help.