98 3.8 rough idle missing? tried many things :(

[derffred]

Hi all, I have been reading many of the posts and I am still having trouble with my Windstar which has 320,000 km. I have had it for 1 year.

I have had a problem with the check engine light being on and and have tried many fixes with limited success.

as of now I am getting the engine light flashing quite often (which I understand to be a result of the engine getting a misfire.)

Here is what I have done so far....

one of the butterfly valve linkages lost the white plastic sleeve so it became un hooked, I put another in and it now works fine as it should, I did the test of with the engine running take off one of the vacumm hoses from the butterfly valve and hold my thumb on hose and watched as the other valve moved and then switch valves and do the same test, it all passed.

Next I checked all of the vacumm hose and found a hole in the pcv valve hose which I replaced (but I did not change the pcv valve, it is loose and seems ok)

on the DEPF sensor one of the vacumm hoses going to the DEPF had a cut in it I replaced the hose (and also got another sensor from the wrekers and switched it)

Put in new Plugs and new wires and changed the Fuel filter (no change)

brought the van to a garage and they did a code reading test and told me that cyl #4 had an injector problem, after reading a bunch of threads on that issue I was positive that the problem was that my egr ports were plugged.

I then added Lucas injector cleaner to the next 2 tanks of gas, no change

so today I took of the intake plenum and scraped and cleaned both the plenum and the egr ports (5 of 6 ports were plugged) and intakes, I then put the intake back on and then also added Sea Foam through the Brake booster with the van running, and after waiting the 20 minutes restarted the van (only had white exaust for a few seconds, I expected more) then ran the van on the highway for 20 km and the light came back on and flashing again

after reading some more threads it was suggested the fuel pump could be the problem so I bought a fuel pressure tester and it passed 40 psi with key on 30 psi (should be 28-45 psi) with running with vacumm hose connected and 40 psi (should be 28-45 psi) with hose disconnected, so I would think the fuel pump is ok

my next step will be to try the Berryman's B12 Cleaner, (I have heard that one is the best to use)

Other than that I am now stuck, did I miss something? what should I check next?

Thanks in advance for any help I get here.
Fred

[12Ounce]

Exactly what codes are you getting?

[derffred]

as far as the codes when this all first started it was the PO171 System too lean Bank 1 and PO174 to lean bank 2 and also PO733 Gear 3 incorrect Raio, (which I had a part replace at the transmission shop to fix the PO733)

but that was a few months back I am not sure which code the garage got when they said my #4 injector was sticking.

I hear that the injectors themselves do not fail that often.

I should maybe get the codes checked again to be sure.

[wiswind]

You are correct, the injectors do not fail often....HOWEVER, they DO built up dirt over the spray end.
I have chased my tail more than once over this....and have found that MANY fuel system cleaners do not solve the problem.
I HAVE found that the Berryman's B-12 Chemtool DOES work.......although I have had to treat a few consecutive tanks of gasoline to do the job.

From what your shop found.....I would put the Berryman's in.
My local shop directed me to the Berryman's, as they have had a lot of good results with it as well.
Fortunately......it is one of the less expensive of the MANY fuel system cleaners out there.
I use the Berryman's in the metal can.

[derffred]

so from this page
http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Default.aspx?tabid=140
do you suggest for me the B-12 CHEMTOOL® CARBURETOR CLEANER / POUR IN... even though mine is fuel injected?

or do you mean the
B-12 CHEMTOOL®
PREMIUM GAS TREATMENT
in the aluminum can?

[Ed_Strong]

I would get the coil tested and inspected for cracks which may be leading to arching.

[derffred]

My father made the same suggestion to me today, I am going to go look under the hood tonight to see if I see any arching.

I spent all day today trying to find the B-12 Chemtool line here in Canada with no luck at all (1 poster in another thread said Walmart , butthe one here does not carry it. any ideas who sells it in Canada (Toronto area)?

also today before I went out I reset the computer by taking off the battery terminals and touching them tgether for 30 seconds.
When I started it cold it ran fine for about 5 or 10 minutes but when it got to operating temp it began sputtering again, so I guess I can eliminate that the problem is a plug or a wire. (but maybe the coil?)

Any sensors that could be a problem only when the engine warms up? can the injector have problems at operating temp?
fred

[12Ounce]

As the hose-ends and hose connectors get old, leaking is not uncommon. You can use some petroleum jelly to lube them up for better sealing. Don't overlook the PCV valve grommet and hose. Any vacuum leak (after the MAF sensor) can cause your symptoms.

A PCV valve being "loose" is not sufficient to prove that its OK. Its a more complicated device than that. I would recommend a (Ford) replacement since you had clogged egr jets.

[derffred]

I am going to get a new pcv valve and gromet in the morning, since that could be a cheap fix, I am also going to clean the maf sensor (I am a bit worried since before I sprayed throttle body cleaner into the air intake and I have now read that you should not use that because it can damage the maf sensor, I read that from Radio Shack the best thing for cleaning maf sensors is spray tuner cleaner, #64-4315. edit... I since found out that this cleaner leaves a residue so I do not suggest it.

Question... when I took out the maf sensor there are 2 hex screws holding it in place but one of the screw heads has been covered with a hard plastic sealer???? I tried scraping it off with a knife but it is very tough, how do I get that off?

Oh and another thing, when I took the air intake off at the plenum there was some oil in where the hose clamp attaches to the plenum, does this mean anything?

after I do those 2 things if no change I will then test the coil pack

I do not think I mentioned this before, but I should say that not only is the idle rough but also at city driving speeds the van is also missing and I can feel the engine jerking a bit in the stearing wheel, it does get better at highway speeds but I can still get the engine light flashing every so often as well as at city speeds

[defiant79]

Originally Posted by derffred

Oh and another thing, when I took the air intake off at the plenum there was some oil in where the hose clamp attaches to the plenum, does this mean anything?

On my 99 when I got it, I had a good deal of oil in there as well (air filter was soaked pretty much with it). That led me to discover the issue with the valve covers on the 99's-01's. I'm not sure if any of the 98's had that issue or not, but that was part of the reason I had so much oil up in the upper intake. When we took the plenum apart there were pools of oil over each bolt and the EGR ports were almost completely blocked. It was a mess cleaning everything up.

Not sure if that helps you, but you may wanna check the valve cover for the same issue as the 99's to make sure that isn't causing the excessive oil to get up into the plenum. Heres the link:

http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html

[wiswind]

I use the "carborator" version..........most part stores will have it......but most will only have 1-3 versions of the product.

As far as oil in the air intake by the throttle body, this is also normal.....comes from the PCV line.
A few drops come out each time you shut down the motor.
The '98 does not have the valve cover issue......it is a matter of the location of the PCV line relative to the throttle body.....some oil will develop in the upper intake manifold from the vapors.....and runs back out when the motor is not running.


For cleaning the MAF.....non-residue electronic cleaner is what you need to use.
Some "tunner cleaners" leave a residue that is supposed to prevent oxidation.....don't know if they still do that anymore......but you will need to carefully read the label.
It should state that it leaves no residue.
I would NOT disassemble the MAF.......just spray the cleaner in the hole at one end of the cross bar.....while holding the assembly so that the fluid will flow through the cross bar and out the hole at the other end.....on the other side.
So you are holding the MAF unit so that you are looking down into it.......angled so that the hole facing you is uphill from the hole that points away from you.
Here is a link to a picture showing this
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1350...11220610bXQOkA

There is also a Input Air Temperature Sensor in the flex hose that you can clean with the same non-residue electronic cleaner.....shown in this picture
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1350...11220610OBlGGb

Of course you could have a coil pack issue, but I was focusing on the diagnosis that the mechanic gave you regarding the #4 fuel injector......which would call for the fuel system cleaner.
This is a link to a picture of the spray end of one of my fuel injectors.....with the "end cap" removed......
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1345...11220610JjMqaP

The previous picture to this one shows the dirt over the end........and it was worse when I removed it.

[derffred]

Thanks defient79, I do know that the 99-03's had a different issue with the valve cover that was not effecting the 98's, but I did have the clogged egr ports which I cleaned on Saturday took a good couple of hours, I wish that would of fixed my problem but I guess I have multiple issues.

@ wiswind
My maf sensor looks clean as does the temp sensor but maybe they have a coating on them from when I used throttle body cleaner, I will do as you suggest and spray into the tube rather than take the maf out of its holding spot.

I have read in some threads that it is ok to use a Q-tip and others say do not...thoughts?

I am going out now to get the pcv parts and the cleaner I will report back later today.

edit... Oh regarding the injectors is there much work to take them out?, does the plenum have to be removed?

I appreciate the help so far as with out you guys I would of given up by now.

[wiswind]

I would only use the spray.....best not to touch the sensor.

I would also get 3 cans of the Berryman's....and treat the next 3 tanks of gasoline.
After they are cleaned up......you should only need to treat a tank a couple times a year (depending upon how much driving you do).

[Ulsterman]

Hi Derffred - I too have the 98 model Windstar and have had all of the issues you describe. Some things I would say at this stage:
You must get the OBDII codes read each time after you make a change and run the engine. My way out of numerous problems came as a result of the codes having changed.
You say you changed the DPFE sensor for one you got from a wrecker but unless it is the newer type i.e black plastic body rather than the original aluminum you may have been no better off.
You seem to have tracked and fixed any vacuum leaks around the engine and this is the no.1 source for the 171/4 codes. You've had the cowl holding the wiper motor off of course and have checked all the vacuum connections after you removed and refitted the plenum also the hose to the brake booster.
Next I'd have a good look at the spark plugs and wires and the coil pack for the source of a misfire. Especially check #4 spark plug, usually the cyl with the only unblocked EGR port, for any green tinges indicating a leaking lower manifold gasket which was one of my fixes. Have you noticed any loss of coolant over time? You could be ready for new plugs anyway and the folks on here recommend the Autolite double platinum.
The rule is if you can to change/fix one thing, run the engine / test drive and read the codes and look on here for the diagnosis. I'll be happy to share my experience with the 98 model.

[derffred]

I have changed the pcv valve and gromet, and I bought specific MAF sensor cleaner and cleaned that and the tem p sensor too.

took the van out for a run and again it seemed to run ok for 5 or 6 minutes and then the engine light flashed on off again and I am back where I started

I dropped by the garage again to ask more details when they had it, the mecahnic said that he tested spark to cyl 4 and it was good, tested compression it was good, he said he used a stethescope and that #4 injector sounded very weak to him so he unplugged the wire to #4 injector and there was no difference so he feels that #4 injector is the problem they want $160 for the injector and $150 to install.

I tried unplugging injecors 4,5 and 6 one at a time but to be honest to me it made no real difference sound wise.

Still no luck finding Berryman's here in Canada, I did find some on ebay and that was the injector cleaner (not the carb cleaner you mentioned before)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=008

Can I clean the injector my self?

How do I take out the injector? edit... I found how to take out the injectors in the Haynes manual