Wheel/Tire Balancing Question

[RidingOnRailz]

Background:

I bought a low-mileage 2010 Honda Accord back in 2020, 71,000 odometer. About to reach 86,000 miles at some point in July.

The tires already on the car were of different makes, two were even different speed & load classifications, and all were different states of wear.

So I did some research, and decided on a round of Pirelli's Cinturato P7 All Season pluses. I maintained Honda's spec tire pressures and wheel torques meticulously for over two years, but - this car just never seemed to feel planted or settled down. When I had the Pirellis put on, I noticed that the steering wheel would shimmy left-right, especially over 50mph and on highways. But not on all roads; just on level stretches of relatively smooth or newer pavement.

Spring of 2021, had tires rotated. Wiggly steering wheel went away, but the car still felt 'off'. I experimented with different cold tire pressures, higher, lower, different pressures front & rear, nothing seemed to totally cure this car's nervousness.

Spring of 2022, rotation, and the wiggly steering wheel was back. I asked the new owner of the local shop I always use, and he said, either one of the front rims is bent, or you just need re-balancing. (The tires were balanced and mounted by the dealer where I bought the car).

Last week, about a month after this most recent rotation, I went to my shop, and asked to watch my front wheels get balanced. When the tech was working on the front left(was it?) I spotted what had to be at least a 2oz clip-on weight on the inner edge of the rim, and I said to the tech "that shouldn't be there". The tech agreed "I think you're right". He removed it, along with all the old tape ons, scraped and cleaned off inside both wheels, and rebalanced and remounted everything. That large clip-on was probably overlooked by the Town Fair local to my dealer, who farms out most of their tire and wheel work to, when they performed the balancing of my then-new Pirellis.

I paid, and proceeded to the nearby parkway. Just pulling out of the shop I already felt a difference! On the 30-35mph five minute drive to the parkway, I could really hear all four tires, now making full, solid contact with the pavement. On the parkway, 40 - 50 - 60 - 75mph - only a slighty shimmy of the steering wheel, as the likely unevenly worn front left tire was re-breaking in.

On the half hour return trip on the parkway, the jiggly steering wheel was completely cured! The car went - and stayed - only and exactly where I pointed it. Even the slight left-hand drift was barely noticeable. And, this car rolls, I mean, reallllly rolls - going up hill as well as level or down hill.

This previously nervous Honda Accord felt like a completely different, and new, car! The moral of the story: Wheel techs: Slow down, clean inside of all wheels and rims, and remove all old weights before rebalancing!

So what is my question?

In the above saga, could that old clip-on lead sinker have caused the entire car to feel so unsettled, or slightly 'off', at 30 and 60mph? Could it even have contributed to the slight left-hand pull?

Finally, moderators:

How could the following tags I added to this thread:

"wheel balancing, clip on weights, tape weights"

be "too short"??? Please add them for me? Thanks!

[CapriRacer]

So, first question: Was an alignment anywhere in that sequence of events? The "Not planted to the Roadway" seems to point to toe out.

But the 2 oz balance weight would have been there when the tire was balanced - ergo, the shimmy shouldn't have been there if the balance was correct. And removing it and rebalancing shouldn't have done anything!

That leads me to question whether the balance machine was out of calibration earlier and removing the balance weight coincided with a better calibration.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

So, first question: Was an alignment anywhere in that sequence of events? The "Not planted to the Roadway" seems to point to toe out.

But the 2 oz balance weight would have been there when the tire was balanced - ergo, the shimmy shouldn't have been there if the balance was correct. And removing it and rebalancing shouldn't have done anything!

That leads me to question whether the balance machine was out of calibration earlier and removing the balance weight coincided with a better calibration.

To clarify:

The original balancing of my current wheel & tire(Pirelli) package was done in February 2020, at a Town Fair Tire that my dealer used for tire and wheel work.

The balancing I just had done was at my local shop, which I have used for many years.

At this latest balancing is when I first noticed the combination of tape-on square weights and the one clip-on edge weight on one of my wheels. My gut, Capri, and not my brain, tells me you can use one type of wheel weight or another, but not a combination of both.

I strongly suspect, and this is why I personally no longer conduct business with Town Fair Tires, that that 2(or more)oz clip-on weight was very likely overlooked and left on from some balancing years ago before I owned this car, when that wheel was check-spun and tape-on squares were added to balance it, during the aforementioned installation of the new Pirellis.


As for my alignment, I tend to be a toe-in promoter, with front, rear, and all wheel drive vehicles. However, the shop where I last had the alignment done, almost one year ago, said his "machine would not allow him" to customize alignment settings.


On the 2008-12 Honda Accord, front toe angle is specified as:

0°, with + or -0.08° tolerance.

On his second attempt, the best he could achieve was

L: -0.01°
R: 0.00°

In otherwords, straight ahead, my front wheels are toed out about the thickness of two human hairs put together. Still well within spec.

My long-time shop(where I just had balancing done), said they can set alignments to anywhere I want them, just within the spec. window.

My ideal front toe on this 2010 Accord?

L: +0.02°
R: +0.02°

Just ever so slightly toed in, but again, in spec.

[maxwedge]

The Hunter machine I have used has a generic scale that you can use to set the wheels anywhere you want basically. Once you enter a vehicle into the program that scale has settings based on the vehicle, including the important thrust angle and front wheel set back. So your guy that said he couldn't go outside the specs was wrong it seems. We set up race cars that of course prevent using a car base spec setting.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by maxwedge

The Hunter machine I have used has a generic
scale that you can use to set the wheels anywhere
you want basically. Once you enter a vehicle into the
program that scale has settings based on the vehicle,
including the important thrust angle and front wheel
set back. So your guy that said he couldn't go outside
the specs was wrong it seems. We set up race cars
that of course prevent using a car base spec setting.

Actually, I just wanted my front toe on a certain side of in spec - for toe-in. But he insisted the machine wanted him to set front toe exactly to the middle of the spec range: 0.0°. I’m a spec type guy! I respect the amount of OEM engineering that went in to most cars I’m driven.

We both know he was incorrect, but I didn’t want to argue with him since he was patient in fulfilling as much of my other alignment requests for the Accord as he did. Including a hair negative rear thrust angle to compensate for the slight left drift at higher speeds.

[CapriRacer]

I am unclear when in the sequence of events this alignment took place. Plus, what were the values BEFORE.

Balance weights? No, different type of balance weights are still weights. Their location matters and many new cars come with a place just behind the spokes for tape weights with regular clip on weight on the inner flange. In those cases, it takes a lot more weight for the ones behind the spokes because they are at a lower diameter and therefore less effective.

And one other possibility. The Town Fair balance was a static balance, while your local shop was dynamic. That difference could result in a vibration that disappears.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

I am unclear when in the sequence of events this alignment took place. Plus, what were the values BEFORE.

Balance weights? No, different type of balance weights are still weights. Their location matters and many new cars come with a place just behind the spokes for tape weights with regular clip on weight on the inner flange. In those cases, it takes a lot more weight for the ones behind the spokes because they are at a lower diameter and therefore less effective.

And one other possibility. The Town Fair balance was a static balance, while your local shop was dynamic. That difference could result in a vibration that disappears.

1. Alignment Before/After

I had alignments done in March 2020 - two months after I bought the Honda, and two more done in May 2021, the last one gratis. If I recall correctly, the front toe was out of spec when I first had the car aligned in 2020: one side was negative, toed just outside the tolerance I mentioned above.

Everything else was in spec, and I requested a slightly negative T/A to counter a slight left highway drift due to the front wheels both leaning about 1/8° to the left(left wheel positive camber, right wheel negative, but both in spec).

2. Balances, static vs dynamic:
Again, I was not present for the Town Fair, because the car was brought there by the dealership to have my new Pirellis installed. So I don’t know what type of balancing was done then.

While I was present and even photographed the screen of the balancer last week, I don’t recall if dynamic, static, or both were done. I do understand that a static imbalance can cause wheel hop, and that a dynamic imbalance can cause a ‘wagging’ effect.

Before this current balancing, the steering wheel would turn left and right, about a total quarter-inch travel, very quickly at speeds over 50mph and on smooth roads. At 60mph in a rutted, patched up lane, the jiggly steering wheel was probably canceled out. Such vibrations were reduced every other rotation.

Seriously though: After this week’s front wheel balancing, the car rides so smooth up to 80mph that you could balance an egg on top of the dashboard. Plus: the left highway drift has been reduced - not completely eliminated - but reduced to the point that I am no longer having to nudge the steering wheel rightward to keep out of the lane to my left.

These are facts Capri, since I’m the one driving the car, reporting afterwards to you what I’m experiencing.

So Capri: would static or dynamic imbalance cause such previous behavior at the wheel?

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by RidingOnRailz

1. Alignment Before/After

I had alignments done in March 2020 - two months after I bought the Honda, and two more done in May 2021, the last one gratis. If I recall correctly, the front toe was out of spec when I first had the car aligned in 2020: one side was negative, toed just outside the tolerance I mentioned above.

Everything else was in spec, and I requested a slightly negative T/A to counter a slight left highway drift due to the front wheels both leaning about 1/8° to the left(left wheel positive camber, right wheel negative, but both in spec).

2. Balances, static vs dynamic:
Again, I was not present for the Town Fair, because the car was brought there by the dealership to have my new Pirellis installed. So I don’t know what type of balancing was done then.

While I was present and even photographed the screen of the balancer last week, I don’t recall if dynamic, static, or both were done. I do understand that a static imbalance can cause wheel hop, and that a dynamic imbalance can cause a ‘wagging’ effect.

Before this current balancing, the steering wheel would turn left and right, about a total quarter-inch travel, very quickly at speeds over 50mph and on smooth roads. At 60mph in a rutted, patched up lane, the jiggly steering wheel was probably canceled out. Such vibrations were reduced every other rotation.

Seriously though: After this week’s front wheel balancing, the car rides so smooth up to 80mph that you could balance an egg on top of the dashboard. Plus: the left highway drift has been reduced - not completely eliminated - but reduced to the point that I am no longer having to nudge the steering wheel rightward to keep out of the lane to my left.

These are facts Capri, since I’m the one driving the car, reporting afterwards to you what I’m experiencing.

So Capri: would static or dynamic imbalance cause such previous behavior at the wheel?

Let me see if I have the sequence of events correct:

1) Bought car. 4 different tires on it. Felt "Not in the road" Had a vibration. Pulled a little.

2) Bought 4 tires from the car dealership. New tires didn't fix anything.

3) Aligned car, toe was out. Alignment still didn't fix anything.

4) Live with this for a year. Had tires balanced - all problems solved.

So Capri: would static or dynamic imbalance cause such previous behavior at the wheel?: Yes, for the vibration.

I wonder if the vibration was also making you feel the car wasn't planted.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

Let me see if I have the sequence of events correct:

1) Bought car. 4 different tires on it. **Car drove OK as I maintained correct tire pressures, but wanted to replace tires due to two being worn and cracked, and a third was a different load/speed rating from the others.**

2) Bought 4 tires from the car dealership. Felt "Not in the road" Had a vibration. Pulled a little. New tires **did improve grip in turns and accelerating, as would be expected **

3) Aligned car, toe was out. Alignment still didn't fix anything.

4) Live with this for a year. **Two rotations since 2020, vibration went away in Spring 2021, returned with Spring 2022 rotation.** Had tires balanced - all problems solved. **Conclusion: The Town Fair Tire used by my dealer must have botched the initial new tire balancing, in some fashion - placing a weight at some position other than where the balancer indicated to place it, using too much/little weight, etc.**

So Capri: would static or dynamic imbalance cause such previous behavior at the wheel?: Yes, for the vibration.

I wonder if the vibration was also making you feel the car wasn't planted. **CORRECT! **

See my edits **within**

Yes, that is my theory: that an unbalanced wheel/tire combo, depending on severity of vibration, can affect the performance of it’s three rubber neighbors on a car. Even contribute to a pull or drift.

Another Q: Which types of imbalance can produce a worse vibration: Static or Dynamic?

[CapriRacer]

As a general rule, vibrations only cause vibrations.

It's possible - because the human mind works in mysterious ways - that a vibration might make it "feel" like the car is "not in the road".

Also, as a general rule, static imbalance is more easily perceived than dynamic imbalance, all other things being equal - BUT - a large dynamic imbalance will be worse than a small static imbalance. The differences are not large enough to rule out either.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

As a general rule, vibrations only cause vibrations.

It's possible - because the human mind works in mysterious
ways - that a vibration might make it "feel" like the car is
"not in the road".

Also, as a general rule, static imbalance is more easily
perceived than dynamic imbalance, all other things being
equal - BUT - a large dynamic imbalance will be
worse than a small static imbalance. The differences are
not large enough to rule out either.

Well, then I guess one of the following happened in Feb. 2020, when the Pirelli tires were fitted:

1). Static-only balance selected

and/or

2). Weight - wrong size or wrong placement

and/or

3). Weight dislodged and fell off during my drive home from the dealer or shortly thereafter.

In any case, my local garage fixed the problem, and now I, the Accord, and the road, are one!

I only hope other drivers could feel the way I do behind the wheel of this car, in their rides.