Brake Line Failure

[drzoidberg]

Rear passenger side brake line failed tonight, developed a pinhole leak, causing the pedal to hit the floor suddenly (rusted thru, by the grace of God while I was sitting at a stoplight and not trying to stop going down a 15 deg hill at 45mph, like normal) and by the time I could pull over 1/2 mile later, the reservoir was empty and no doubt air is in the master cylinder/ABS now. Since I was at walmart I managed to cobble together an epoxy fix that got me home, but it was hemorrhaging fluid again.

Anyway, it looks like that whole set of both wheel rear brake lines is on the verge of total collapse, and needs replacing, as well as a complete brake system bleed.

So, my questions for the experts are:

1. Is it possible for a person to bleed the ABS system without needing a computer to specially cycle the ABS?

2. Is it feasible to replace those lines yourself, or is it something that is virtually impossible without a lift?

3. Rought idea of cost if I took it to a place like Midas/Firestone for replacement of those lines + ABS bleed?

Thanks.

[drzoidberg]

Forgot to mention, '98 (really 97) Windstar, 3.8L, ABS, Air Suspension, rear Drum brakes.

[wiswind]

You can buy the flexible hoses that go from the hard line to the caliper or wheel cylinder.
I replaced my front ones last fall and it really improved my braking performance.
However, when you get to the steel lines......it is more work......you need to buy the steel line and a flare tool.....and fittings.
You can do it yourself.....but it has to be done right......and how hard will depend upon the actual location the defective line is at.
At the least......you would cut the defective part out....and slice in a new steel line.
I am NOT an expert......but I would say that the hoses are a resonable DIY job.....but could be difficult if the fittings don't come off easy (rear wheel cylinder connection is not likely to be easy).
Steel lines are a more advanced level of work......customized lengths, bends and connections are what you are dealing with.

Then you have to bleed all the air out of the system.
Unknown if you have air into the ABS system.

Brake lines can rust from the outside as well as the inside.
Many forget about the inside......which can be prevented by regular bleeding at each wheel to remove the old brake fluid......and any moisture that is in it.
Every 2 years is a good interval.

[northern piper]

I can't answer any of your questions regarding the ABS aspect but replacing the brake lines, rigid or flex, is a dirty, frustrating job but do-able. I did mine on my 2000 3.8 a year ago on a gravel driveway with a pair of car ramps. Fortunately the rigid lines are available in pre-bent form and the flex hoses are also available. I'd personally suggest you replace the wheel cylinders within the drums and work from there to the front of the van. You'll likely get to a point around where the rigid lines drop near the front that are in pretty good shape. Mine was ahead of the front cat. About 2 days before you attempt the job spray copious quantities of PB blaster on all fittings so that they come apart, particularly at the connection where you want to "save" the sections moving forward.

Once the new stuff is in, bleed in proper order (BR,BL,FR,FL) a few times. I'd cross my fingers that the ABS is ok but as I've said, I've never had the fluid down as far as you. While your at this, make sure your e-brake is in good order. That's your only hope if this happens again and one of the benefits of rear drums..

[Mama's T-Bird]

Just my experiences...2003, 90 miles from home, brake line up front got pin-hole, leaked on cat-converter and actually started small fire. Drove it 2 miles to local small town mechanic, fixed for $85--no problem with ABS. Last summer, took out seats and picked up full load of wood from my brother, rear brake line broke. Being cheap, drove it 45 miles home with no fluid (you can stop with no fluid and pressure, but it's hard and dangerous. Replaced brake line, bled brakes, no problem with ABS. Brake line on my 97 Windstar is 3/8" IIRC. Auto stores sell it in 3-4' lengths with male/female fittings for around $10. You'll need a flaring kit as Northern Piper mentioned. Runs about $20. You can also get a pipe bender--I bought a hand-held one for $10, but never used it--just carefully formed the brake line with my hands. The flexible 6-10" sections from the brake bleeder to the steel line looked OK so I just replaced the steel line. As mentioned, soak all the fittings down good with WD-40 or PB Blaster, etc. If possible, take brake line off in one section, then you'll have a pattern to use to form the new one. Read the flaring instructions, then cut a small section of the new tubing and practice flaring (all you're really doing forming a lip on the end of the tubing--remember when you flare the pieces you're going to use that fitting must be on first). My Haynes manual actually says if you have ABS to bleed in this order: LF, RF, LR, RR. Since I had no brake fluid whatsoever in my lines, I bled the RR first, then did it the way the manual said. Haynes said to pump the brake 25 times for each bleed, but after 5-6 pumps fluid was gushing out. Had wife do slow brake pumping under my command ("pump, release, pump, release")--brake pumping was done with car ignition turned off, no power on. Still no problem with ABS so far. Also noticed you posted same post on FORD/Forums/Windstar---don't know if it's considered kosher internet wise, but can't blame you for trying to get as many responses to your problem as possible. Good Luck.

[drzoidberg]

Thanks all for the suggestions.

I ended up taking the thing to a local Firestone about a mile down the road. I didn't have the time/tooling/access to work on it in the driveway and needed to get the thing operational again. Plus, I figured, it's easy, how much can it be? Boy was I wrong...

Ended up being $400, since they had to replace both steel hardlines all the way back from the proportioning valve, which is what I figured. What I didn't figure is that they would gouge me about 4x street price for the parts, and then quote me 2 hours labor (i.e. the amount of time to do a proper job), and then just run the lines wherever they felt like, zip-tied to whatever random wiring harness, etc. they could find near the edge (not along the original chases for the brakes/ABS harnesses) of the car to run it along. If it took them 30 minutes, I'd be shocked. (Of course they still charged me for the 2 hours). I complained to the manager, but he acted like that was completely normal for them. He claimed it was "impossible" for them to re-run the lines where the originals were. I also don't think they bled it right, since the pedal is a little squishy. Guess I should have just done it myself...maybe time for a nasty letter to Firestone corporate, for all the good that will do.

As far as posting on multiple forums, I don't know who comes up with these internet "rules," but they should run them through a common sense test. Different forum = potentially different group of individuals. Seems like a pretty good idea to post both places to me.

[wiswind]

Posting on different forums....I am not aware of any rules against it.
You might get into trouble linking to or directing people from one forum to another.
I post on several forums....
The way I look at it......if you get the help you need....then you can share it on the forums that you posted on.....and that will help many more folks.