2010 Accord EX - Wheel Alignment Question

[RidingOnRailz]

First, Honda's specs, from the Service manual for 2008-10 models:

Front Toe: 0", +-0.08" (Honda specs angles in inches - most machines use degrees)

Last May, my local shop fulfilled my request for a hair of toe-in on the fronts: L +0.04" and R +0.04".

This positive toe(in) transformed my Accord from a "nervous hunter" of corners to a rock steady cruiser at 30mph on roads and at 60mph on interstates. I no longer had to provide minor corrections every few seconds of travel time. The steering wheel had a strong centered feel, and exhibited strong self-centering from turns.

Since then, a few nasty pot holes later, it lately felt like the car was (literally) drifting back into old habits.

So earlier this week, I had the shop align again, but this time, it felt like no change from before. After giving it a few days, I pulled out last year's alignment sheet and the one from last Monday, and I noticed a difference:

On the more recent sheet, they toed in the front left 0.5°(most modern align machines are in degrees) and toed OUT the front right, -0.5°.

When I talked to the shop today about it, the supervisor explained that the technician was "just trying to achieve the total toe I wrote down that I wanted", and that when going down the road, the toed-out side doesn't stay like that, and that the front wheels are centered by the other alignment angles(caster, etc).

What I wrote: "Front L & R toe in +0.04"

What I wanted: The front Left and front Right each toed in 0.04"(or degrees).

So maybe the tech thought I wanted TOTAL front toe of 0.04". (Which amounts to 0.02" of toe in per side.)

The supervisor said he would oversee a redo next week, at no charge. I apologized to him for my note being unclear, and he said, not a problem, "we know you were satisfied last year", so we want to make good.

What do you guys make of the tech aligning it they way they did, toe in on one side and *almost* as much toe out on the other?

[maxwedge]

For one thing, toe in is the last part of the alignment, caster will not change toe, .camber will, but all this is corrected by the last step. The way you requested is correct, toe the same on both sides, which based on the thrust angle should set the wheel straight also.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by maxwedge

For one thing, toe in is the last part of the alignment, caster will not change toe, .camber will, but all
this is corrected by the last step. The way you requested is correct, toe the same on both sides, which
based on the thrust angle should set the wheel straight also.

You're preaching to the choir, as far as order of prep and sequence of angles is concerned.

But apparently, this technician interpreted my note to mean "how much total front toe" I wanted, not the angle of toe-in per side I requested.

And the supervisor said actually, the way they do alignments, they look at total toe, not side to side. He said that way they know the total angle doesn't exceed or undermine spec. Of course they look at side vs side, if something indicates way off from the other, IE: Left caster = 3.5 and right caster = -1.2(!).

They know something definitely needs attention in that latter example.

[maxwedge]

Sorry about the unnessary explanation. Did the printout show thrust angle, if not they did not program the equipment for a true 4w alignment.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by maxwedge

Sorry about the unnessary explanation. Did the printout
show thrust angle, if not they did not program the equipment for a true 4w alignment.

Yes. T/A -0.05deg. I like it slightly negative, as it counters the left pull designed into most cars since 2000.


The funny thing is, the sheet they give the customer rounds everything up or down to the nearest 0.5 or 0.1! So a toe angle of less than 0.05 prints on the sheet as "0.0" 0.8 as "0.10" etc.

I told the supervisor that I'm used a much more detailed and complex print out, and for just a second, he looked at me as though what I said offended him, but he said that's the software we use on the alignment equipt. we have.

Both his shop - a popular one in this area - and where I live, are in a relatively affluent part of my state, and so they probably tailor the alignment results sheet so that someone with little knowledge of cars beyond the drivers seat can understand what was done.

EDIT: I just looked at the bottom of the sheet, "John Bean" Aligner equipt is used at this shop. But I feel the two important factors on any equipment are the operator and technique.

[maxwedge]

Agreed on all points, I instructed for Hunter about 30 years ago. Basics don't change. Make them do it over, with the wheel straight ahead there should be no offset in the toe.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by maxwedge

Agreed on all points, I instructed for Hunter about 30 years ago. Basics don't change. Make
them do it over, with the wheel straight ahead there should be no offset in the toe.

Thank you.

The first part is to make sure they understand my request(!)

I have a feeling the techinician who aligned my car last week is not the same one who did it last year. Last week's tech interpreted "L and R +0.04" as the amount of Total Toe I wanted, not toe-in angle.

Fortunately, no crooked steering wheels with this shop. I have a feeling that if I give them any instructions beyond my preferred toe-in settings, they might not appreciate me telling them how to do their job. So far my relationship with them is good. Don't want to rock the boat.