Replacing the coolant crossover pipe

[krivasauto]

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[fhofstra]

Stan -
I too, wish you hadn't lost the writeup you worked on. My 2000 GLS may need this work done on it when warm weather returns next Spring. As someone else said, this thread is collecting some good info.
It is maddening to find yourself "logged out" without any warning, and your writeup lost. I learned to copy everything -- often -- to the clipboard while writing a post, and then save the clipboard contents often, to a text document on my desktop, just in case you need to be able to copy it back quick, after a surprise logout. At least you don't have to recreate it all.

[carbon02]

Krivasauto--

I noticed that you revised one of your pictures on 12-11-09 as to where to pry with the crowbar. Were you able to do it without loosening the rear exhaust manifold?

I know your probably working on it now, and you'll update us when you have a chance.

My 2000 Intrigue had a puddle under the drivers side last night. Only seems to leak when it's really cold outside. I haven't confirmed 100% that it's the crossover, but there appears to be dried coolant on the bolt heads. Any interest in seeing a white Chistmas in Snowy Minnesota? I might have to figure out how to get this to go till spring or park it till then.

Best of luck from all of us that are still following this. Nice start on the EBTCM as well.

Carbon02

[krivasauto]

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[carbon02]

Hey Guys-

The cold weather has caused my 2000 to leak, and I've been calling around for quotes if this is the issue. (I'll discuss that leak and location with pictures in a separate post. )

I called a former Oldsmobile dealer, probably the largest in the Twin Cities area and spoke to a tech/service adviser. He mentioned having to remove the entire intake manifold. I mentioned does the rear exhaust manifold need to be loosened/touched and he said no. The only thing I can think of by pulling the intake manifold would you have enough room to remove all the bolts except the "middle bottom" and then rotate the cross over enough to slip new gaskets in there? Maybe the cross over really doesn't have to come completely out from under the big exhaust pipe? I thought I'd throw that out there.

[krivasauto]

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[suburbanstevie]

Hello all,

It is stunningly amazing that I hit upon this thread at this time. Just a week or two ago I didn't hit anything close on Google about changing the crossover seals.

I am an owner of a 1999 olds Intrigue with the same problem this post is discussing. I am planning on fixing the leak probably around the holidays. I have bought all the seals, including the exhaust manifold set because that is what I assumed needed to be done (remove the right exhaust manifold). I wait with great anticipation as to if using a pry-bar really works to make this repair go easier.

I did spend a little time under the car with extensions and ball-swivel adapters to see if I could get a 13mm socket on all the manifold bolts (6). And basically concluded that I could if the exhaust pipe to the catalytic converter is removed. but if I don't have to remove it that would be awesome.

thanks to all for your input.

[krivasauto]

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[suburbanstevie]

My apologies to Stan. And thank you Krivasauto for correcting me.

I will give this method a try, but if while pulling on a crow-bar I get the feeling like I am breaking something, I will stop and go the longer route by removing the manifold.

Maybe will start this weekend and try to finish before the holidays.

later, Steve

[krivasauto]

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[suburbanstevie]

Krivasauto and others,

Just wanted to get off a quick post about how the job went, will offer a more detailed post possibly this evening. Big questions, ANY LEAKS?... none. Did I try prying the right manifold (RM) crossover?...yes, but it didn't move enough to be of any benefit, so ended up removing the RM anyway. How many hours?...about 14 hours.

I will explain further why it took so long, but basically I'm a slow mechanic who takes my time to make absolutely sure I don't mess anything up, 'cause I don't want to have to do it again.

Why the prybar trick didn't work? The left manifold (LM) extends up into the RM about an inch. So after I did remove the RM I relized why I could only pry about 1/4inch easily then hit a stop. I was hitting the LM. Was 1/4" enough to get the crossover off? maybe if I had another arm (pulling the prybar at the same time I am pushing on a wrench). On my car there is only 3/16 inch clearance between the top of the problem bolt (center bottom) and the RM crossover. And the bigger issue is the engagement of the bolts into the heads is about 3/4-7/8 inches!!! It would have been impossible for me to make the prybar trick work.

I will write more later, and will offer tips also. Like, when removing the two exhaust nuts (RM to pipe) use a 1/2" (SAE) socket with a 1/2" drive. the 1/2" socket is a little snug on the 13mm nuts but it worked excellent, especially after I split my Craftsman 13mm deep-well 3/8" drive socket. I used a standard height socket from a more robust manufacture than Craftsman.

later, Steve

[krivasauto]

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[suburbanstevie]

Krivasauto and others,

I’d like to offer a reason for the long time (14 hours), some observations of the whole job, and finally some tips that I did or should have done.

Why did it take me so long? I am a very methodical person, who does things step-by-step. By profession I am a mechanical design engineer, specializing in high-speed rotating machinery typically for aerospace applications (over 31 years experience, thus you can figure about how old I am). Am I a “gearhead”? No, but I would rather be tinkering in the garage with the stereo on, changing the oil on a car before participating in “house-cleaning day” with the Misses. This was definitely the biggest repair I’ve done in a long time, as the last big repair I did was rebuild a TurboHydramatic tranny with the help a friend. Mostly I just do oil-changes, plugs, and brakes on my vehicles. I was a little worried about this project.

So why did it take me so long? As I said in the previous post I did not want to make a mistake. I do such things as wire brush all the bolts that have corrosion damage, and carefully scrape the old gaskets off (see below trick that I used), and as I remove stuff I carefully organize it on the garage floor (with its respective fasteners) in the order I removed it (so I know how to put it back on). And if a lousy song shuffles up on the iPod playing over the garage speakers, I don’t hesitate to get up and hit the skip button.

Before I took on this job I did buy a complete set of official shop manuals I found on Amazon. They were used and I got them for about $65. I already had the Chilton manual I bought from the local auto parts store but obviously it didn’t discuss the crossover manifold. The manuals proved to be a very good reference for me. The Fel-Pro gaskets I ordered are (all from Kragen Auto parts):
#35722 (qty 3), crossover manifold (3X $7.00)
#70788, EGR ($2.49)
#61304, Throttle body (paper) ($.99)
#61305, Throttle plate (molded rubber) ($2.49)
#MS96346, Exhaust manifold SET (left, right, crossover donut, and the EGR oring for the pipe going back into the intake manifold) ($22.00)
#61310, Exhaust pipe ($7.50)

Is this a complicated repair? Not really, when you think about it there is really only a handful of fasteners and about 5 things to remove (exhaust-12 fasteners total, throttle body/intake-9, crossover/EGR stuff-14, engine cover-2, water hoses-3, and a few electrical plugs-7). But honestly, the exhaust removal and assembly took about 7 hours on its own (2.5 hours to remove and 4.5 to put back on).

I started by removing the obvious stuff on top: negative battery terminal, intake duct, linkage from the throttle body, engine stabilizer, drain the coolant, throttle body (3 nuts), then the throttle body plate (three studs using a 5mm socket, and the little screw hidden under the paper throttle body gasket). I only took one of the little hoses off the throttle plate, leaving the smaller hose attached between the crossover manifold and the throttle plate. I did this solely thinking that the less hoses removed the better chance I won’t have a leak. Removed the other two hoses (to radiator and heater). The heater hose I ended just cutting off, as there was still enough length to be able to reattach.

Tried the pry-bar trick, but as mentioned above it didn’t do the trick for me. And realizing that I wanted room to properly clean the sealing surface, and to be able to get my hands in there, I decided to remove the right manifold (RM).

From underneath began removing the 3 foot pipe attached to the RM, using penetrating oil and the ½” drive sockets (1/2” SAE). I did not remove any O2 sensors, only disconnected the one connector. The hardest fasteners to remove on the hole job were the two nuts between the pipe and the RM. The manifold was easy to remove the 6 bolts. you will need to remove the tranny dip-stick pipe (one screw) but have a container ready to catch about a pint of tranny fluid (I wasn't ready!).

The crossover bolts were difficult as on one of them (lower left) I almost rounded the head. Hindsight I wish I had used a ½ SAE socket instead of the 13mm, as it probably would have gripped the bolt better. Two of the bolts were heavily corroded from the leaking fluid. The seals literally crumbled into pieces. Then put it all back together.

The most difficult part in putting everything back on was the RM. First put the donut on the LM pipe, position the RM on the LM pipe, and crawl under the car for a couple of hours trying carefully to finger-thread the 6 bolts in. I believe I may have cross-threaded possibly 2 of the lower bolts, but literally gave up trying to get the bolts in. If you have smaller hands and arms it should be much easier for you. Try your hardest not to drop the bolts as some will fall to the ground but I had one fall between the transmission and the engine and could not retrieve it. Luckily my local hardware store had one! When putting the RM back on you will want to work slow and carefully. The three top bolts are easiest, but the bottoms are the hardest. I used about 20" of extensions for all these bolts, and as long as you had wobble ends you can get to all 6. Everything finally torqued down OK.

My tips:
1. Use Anti-sieze on all the fasteners.
2. Use GM sealant ($17, requiring a caulking gun) on all coolant gasket surfaces.
3. I used an electric Palm sander on several sealing surfaces to clean them up. This is a wonderful trick I’ve done many times in the past.
4. I used a Come-along to pull the engine forward, to facilitate access to the RM bolts. Tied one end to a stud in the garage, the other to a crow-bar wedged in the motor stabilizing bracketry. Ust be careful you don’t pull too much as to flip the car off any jack-stands.
5. As discussed earlier, a ½” socket may work better on difficult 13mm bolts.
6. I used several Wobble extensions, and a wobble impact “Ball” adapter (Craftsman 3/8” drive)
7. You will need a little mirror to find bolts you dropped.
8. And get one of those little grabber gizmos (about 2 feet long) that has the little metal prongs that flair out.
9. Jack-stands for the whole car (4). Be careful!!!!
10. Manuals I found very useful
11. And most importantly, a Radio playing your favorite music.

I want to discuss one more topic… Sealing. I generally put either GM Sealant (the best), or Permatex sealant (I think either 2A or 2B? the black one) on all seals for coolant, trannies, oil pans. Years ago a mechanic told me you never have to put goop on gaskets as long as you torque them correctly. But I use sealant (goop), and have never had a leak. Someone may say, I don’t need to put sealant on the crossover seals as they have built-in rubber gaskets. I would rather put the sealant on the mating surfaces and be safe, than to put everything together (14 hours) and discover a little weeping leak.

That’s my experience. I may have left something out, please feel free to contact me with any questions. Sorry I didn’t take pictures, but my hands were dirty and it would have added another hour to my effort. Hey it took me over an hour to write this!!!

Let me know how your crossover repair goes, and good luck and be careful when under the vehicle. Steve

[carbon02]

Surburbanstevie--

Thanks for your additional comments on this. It gives me the idea that without help, I don't know if I'm going to tackle this project. That rear manifold being under the car would drive me crazy!

I'm glad your Intrigue's back up and running.

I'll be following this discussion even if I don't do this till spring. Still debating what to do with the 2000 Intrigue.

Happy Holidays to everyone.

Carbon02

[krivasauto]

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