HHO Hydrogen fuel suppliment for better MPH & savings

[sad-lumina-owner]

Everybody's doing it.

Has anyone done it to a /94 lumina?

I'm particularly interested because I'm told its easy if your car is OBD-1 rather than OBD-2.

It seems the newer computers check to see if you've modded your car, and eventually force you to limp home in 'crippled mode' if you mess with them.

But with OBD-1, apparently all I need do is fool the ECM into thinking the mix is too rich, and my Hydrogen can slip right in and give me HP and MPG.

I can build an inexpensive 'Map Sensor - extendor' or add an EFIE (El.Fuel Inj.Enancer).

So even though mine is not a truly "old" car in the preferred sense, it may still have some hidden value in that it can easily be converted to hybrid Hydrogen power.

Joe Hydrogen car (Australia 1995)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...15378&q=&hl=en

MAP sensor Theory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijK2L...eature=related

O2/MAP/MAF sensor Enhancer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo4I3...eature=related


MAF (Mass Air Flow Sensor) Theory Pt 1 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjwBi...eature=related

[lumina_98]

I've read a lot about these HHO systems and am skepticle. Do you know first hand of anyone increase their milage rate with them? I was all spun up at one point and planning to get some stainless steel tubes and a jelly jar and build one but not sure it's worth the time and effort. The numbers just don't make any sense from a purely energy input and energy output analysis.

[sad-lumina-owner]

Originally Posted by lumina_98

I've read a lot about these HHO systems and am skepticle. Do you know first hand of anyone increase their milage rate with them? I was all spun up at one point and planning to get some stainless steel tubes and a jelly jar and build one but not sure it's worth the time and effort. The numbers just don't make any sense from a purely energy input and energy output analysis.

welcome aboard this thread:

There's alot of guys out there getting better mileage. The problem is with the newer cars having onboard computers, specifically OBD II.

What happens is you get 30 mpg instead of 20, then after about 20 minutes the onboard computer detects your tampering and re-enriches the fuel/air ratio, preventing you from any savings by burning less gas.

Its a frustrating problem, with a variety of solutions depending upon the make and model car and the number of O2 sensors, MAP and MAF sensors, etc.

A lot of guys have been successful tricking some computers (ECM/PCM) by building little MAP/MAF bypass circuits, usually just a variable resistor in series with the sensor, changing the voltage. This doesn't always work for long, because the F****G car companies are in bed with the oil companies (same owners - the rich man's network).

Basically it comes to this: If your car is pre-90s (has a carburetor instead of fuel injectors) you are a- ok. Just add the unit and gain 50% more mileage.

If you have a 90-95 car (OBD-I or less) you can also have fairly easy success, but you have to deek out the O2 sensor before the cat.converter, and/or readjust the MAP/MAF sensors with some variable resistors.

If you are stuck with a post /95 lemon, you may have to haul out the computer and sub an older one in, or reburn your EPROM.

Oil Companies suck.

[lumina_98]

50%! Hm well that's worth building one but maybe it makes more sense to just buy one. I've got an 87 with a throttle body and a 75 with a 4 barrel oil field sucking 350 to try one on. Probably it has nothing to do with energy input versus thermal energy gained by burning the hydrogen. It's probably just increased efficiency because of the oxygen mixture. Why don't the manufacturers add these? I'm at 5000 feet and how much better might this add on be here?

[Forscythe87]

Its rubbish. Any good search on google will show you that. I like you want to save gas. Id spend thousands if it meant getting 50% more gas. It reaches a point where its just smarter to get a new car if your not happy.

Everyone in the US would be doing it if it were that easy.


There is a guy down here in Tampa that managed to get a car running on water though. Dont hear much on him though.

[maxwedge]

He drowned during the process! LOL

[sad-lumina-owner]

Originally Posted by lumina_98

50%! Hm well that's worth building one but maybe it makes more sense to just buy one. I've got an 87 with a throttle body and a 75 with a 4 barrel oil field sucking 350 to try one on. Probably it has nothing to do with energy input versus thermal energy gained by burning the hydrogen. It's probably just increased efficiency because of the oxygen mixture. Why don't the manufacturers add these? I'm at 5000 feet and how much better might this add on be here?

You are laughing! Your car isn't screwed up with an onboard computer and injectors.

I'd go straight for it. You'll be surprised to get a 1/3 more mileage, especially out of the gasguzzling v8.

Its the new cars where the diminishing returns come in.

(1) on the one hand, they burn gasoline more efficiently and in a more controlled fashion to a degree, with computer and fuel injectors (but be warned that your onboard computer deliberately burns rich to produce gasses for the Catalytic Converter to work! - Yeah that's right: the car company has rigged your car to pollute and suck up gas so that you have to use the CatConv.!!!).

An alternate method of polluting less (A LOT LESS!) was more mpg and better cleaner burning (but that was abandoned in the 80s when Cat Converters were forced on everyone!).


(2) The car companies have actually rigged the cars so that your computer will detect you are running lean and will pump more fuel back into the mix that you don't need, wasting fuel, polluting, and preventing you from improving your mileage on your "new more efficient computer-car".

These are the crookedest bastards on earth. Supposedly there's an oil shortage, and they are forcing us all to burn twice the gas that we actually need.

[sad-lumina-owner]

Just to update on the NEW CAR/COMPUTER problem:

I found this post in the HHO forum:

Eric,

I will speculate that you got great gas mileage until your on-board computer
adjusted. It usually takes a couple of tanks to learn the new mix. you really
need an EFIE and a better booster. The water4gas unit is junk and a waste of
your time and effort.

Got to: http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/ and build a real booster. Plans are
FREE.

RoyD

According to the boys trying to install HHO in new cars, you have to install an EFIE control as well.

This stands for Electronic Fuel Injector Enhancer (EFIE).

It apparently uses the computer's injector signals and changes them on the sly to cut back the gasoline.

[maxwedge]

Originally Posted by sad-lumina-owner

You are laughing! Your car isn't screwed up with an onboard computer and injectors.

I'd go straight for it. You'll be surprised to get a 1/3 more mileage, especially out of the gasguzzling v8.

Its the new cars where the diminishing returns come in.

(1) on the one hand, they burn gasoline more efficiently and in a more controlled fashion to a degree, with computer and fuel injectors (but be warned that your onboard computer deliberately burns rich to produce gasses for the Catalytic Converter to work! - Yeah that's right: the car company has rigged your car to pollute and suck up gas so that you have to use the CatConv.!!!).

An alternate method of polluting less (A LOT LESS!) was more mpg and better cleaner burning (but that was abandoned in the 80s when Cat Converters were forced on everyone!).


(2) The car companies have actually rigged the cars so that your computer will detect you are running lean and will pump more fuel back into the mix that you don't need, wasting fuel, polluting, and preventing you from improving your mileage on your "new more efficient computer-car".

These are the crookedest bastards on earth. Supposedly there's an oil shortage, and they are forcing us all to burn twice the gas that we actually need.

Factless rant, modern engines are running so lean they are on the edge of of the stoichiometric curve, this also enhances cat efficiency, I don't know where you come up with these issues, but it is getting droll. My 02 Lesabre loaded with luggage made a 5k trip last winter, and got exactly 30mpg! MY 98 LTZ 3800 ex police car made the same trip, got 29, and it had 170k on it! A family member had a 94 3.1 Lumina that ran fine, was beat up, 190k, still got 30 or better on the hwy!

[sad-lumina-owner]

Originally Posted by maxwedge

Factless rant, modern engines are running so lean they are on the edge of of the stoichiometric curve, this also enhances cat efficiency, I don't know where you come up with these issues, but it is getting droll. My 02 Lesabre loaded with luggage made a 5k trip last winter, and got exactly 30mpg! MY 98 LTZ 3800 ex police car made the same trip, got 29, and it had 170k on it! A family member had a 94 3.1 Lumina that ran fine, was beat up, 190k, still got 30 or better on the hwy!

Not factless:

a catalytic converter cannot work at all, unless there are nitrogen oxide exhaust gases. So your car isn't running "at the edge of the stoichiometric curve". Dream on.

Your own testimony exposes the gag.

Your /94 vintage car gets 30 mpg. It has a crappy OBD-1 system.

Your /98 cop car gets the same. NO IMPROVEMENT after 5 years of tweaking the computer/injectors/O2/MAP/MAF.

Your /02 car gets the same.

What does that say? the big car companies made no improvement whatever in MPG over a ten year span.

Obviously they were doing something else entirely: ****ing you up the ***.

Now you can actually observe what they did, by putting on an HHO system, or in fact ANY system (E85/Nitrous Oxide whatever!).

Your new car will run about 2 weeks with huge improvements in MPG and/or HP/Torq, then suddenly it will limp home in "rich mode" as the computer pulls a 'sleeper' then smacks you down for tampering with the engine.

[maxwedge]

A cat act works using oxygen as a catylyst, second both the Lumina 98 and the Lesabre are 400 pounds heavier than the 94. So all things being equal the mileage has improved obd1 to obd11, your " theories" are bereft of 45 years experience and owner ship of 35 cars to make comprehensive comparisons. Increased emissions standards and safety add ons have hurt in the weight and fuel mileage department as well.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by sad-lumina-owner

Just to update on the NEW CAR/COMPUTER problem:

I found this post in the HHO forum:



According to the boys trying to install HHO in new cars, you have to install an EFIE control as well.

This stands for Electronic Fuel Injector Enhancer (EFIE).

It apparently uses the computer's injector signals and changes them on the sly to cut back the gasoline.

Beware take care.
Read you EPA and federal laws on tappering with it..
Before you even think about doing it.

A person can get jail time and big bucks fine for tampering with the federall emmisions.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/title2.html#iia

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/


http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa203.txt



http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa205.txt

[DnaProRacing]

interesting read. can anyone translate it to english???

[jeffcoslacker]

Originally Posted by DnaProRacing

interesting read. can anyone translate it to english???

Cats don't require NOx to operate. They do need the oxygen bank replenished if depleted, and the ECM will command a slightly LEANER mixture while cruising to recover and store unused O2 from the exhaust...

In fact reduction of NOx is favored under rich conditions, at the expense of CO and HC reactions...they do use O2 recovered from NOx catalyzation in the HC and CO breakdown, but do not REQUIRE it...it can be sourced easily through mixture control.

Three way cats are most efficient at 14.8-14.9:1 (leaner than stoich, 14.7:1) and favor CO and HC reduction when operating in this range.

Hydrogen's stoich is 34:1, byproducts of combustion are heat and H2O, the added oxygen in the exhaust stream with HHO enrichment might increase NOx levels, I'm not totally sure but seems possible.

Basically you are just displacing air with hydrogen, creating a richer burn. Hydrogen has a comparable octane rating of about 130, so it can be an efficient fuel at higher compression ratios.

The only way to really see a measurable benefit from hydrogen enrichment is if it is directly injected to the cylinder after the intake valve closes, getting around the air displacement issue....

[sad-lumina-owner]

Originally Posted by MT-2500

Beware take care.
Read you EPA and federal laws on tappering with it..
Before you even think about doing it.

A person can get jail time and big bucks fine for tampering with the federall emmisions.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/title2.html#iia

Its this simple:

Its illegal to tamper with pollution control devices, EXCEPT:

No action with respect to any device or element of design referred to in paragraph (3) shall be treated as a prohibited act under that paragraph if the action is for the purpose of a conversion of a motor vehicle for use of a clean alternative fuel (as defined in this title) and if such vehicle complies with the applicable standard [of emission requirements] under section 202 when operating on such fuel, and if in the case of a clean alternative fuel vehicle (as defined by rule by the Administrator), the device or element is replaced upon completion of the conversion procedure and such action results in proper functioning of the device or element when the motor vehicle operates on conventional fuel.

They can't and won't make it illegal to modify your car to run on alternate fuels.




Its illegal to tamper with pollution control devices, EXCEPT:

...
Nothing in paragraph (3) shall be construed to require the use of manufacturer parts in maintaining or repairing any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine. For the purposes of the preceding sentence, the term "manufacturer parts" means, with respect to a motor vehicle engine, parts produced or sold by the manufacturer of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine.

That is, they can't make you use original GM parts for replacements of any part of the system either, as long as the purpose and function of system the remains the same, namely the emission standards applicable are met.


So screw the oil companies, screw the car companies, and screw the government interferring with your absolute rights to competantly fix your own car your own way and improve MPG and Pollution too!


This is no COMMIE police state. And if they try to turn it into one, they'll have another revolution.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/


PLAIN ENGLISH:

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/peg/index.html

"In general, when Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finds that a violation has occurred, the agency can issue an order requiring the violator to comply, issue an administrative penalty order (use EPA administrative authority to force payment of a penalty), or bring a civil judicial action (sue the violator in court)."

Whoop Dee Do. "Halt, or I'll shout 'Halt' again."

If the EPA wants to go after you, they can bring a civil suit against you in court.

There you can ask the judge politely to tell them to screw off, because you're within your rights, and they have no case.

In any case, the EPA is NOT INTERESTED IN STOPPING YOU FROM USING ALTERNATE FUELS. IN FACT THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE:

Alternative Fuels

"The Clean Air Act encourages development and sale of alternative fuels. Alternative fuels are transportation fuels other than gasoline and diesel, including [but not limited to] natural gas, propane, methanol, ethanol, electricity, and biodiesel.

These fuels can be cleaner than gasoline or diesel and can reduce emissions of harmful pollutants. Renewable alternative fuels are made from biomass materials like wood, waste paper, grasses, vegetable oils, and corn. They are biodegradable and reduce carbon dioxide emissions. In addition, most alternative fuels are produced domestically, which is better for our economy, energy security and helps offset the cost of imported oil.

The Clean Air Act also requires EPA to establish a national renewable fuel (RF) program. This program is designed to significantly increase the volume of renewable fuel that is blended into gasoline and diesel."

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/peg/carstrucks.html

So rather than going after you, they are going to leave you alone or even give you monetary incentives to switch to other fuels.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa203.txt

Here again:

"No action with respect to any device or element of design referred to in paragraph (3) shall be treated as a prohibited act under that paragraph if the action is for the purpose of a conversion of a
motor vehicle for use of a clean alternative fuel "


"Nothing in paragraph (3) shall be construed to require the use of manufacturer parts in maintaining or repairing any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine. "


http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/caa205.txt

"In determining the amount of any civil penalty to be assessed under this subsection, the court shall take into account the gravity of the violation, the economic benefit or savings (if any) resulting
from the violation, the size of the violator's business, the violator's history of compliance with this title, action taken to remedy the violation, the effect of the penalty on the violator's ability to continue in business, and such other matters as justice may require.""

The EPA has no 'sweeping powers'. they have to operate under normal civil law, which means they have to prove a case against you before a judge, and an independant court will decide on fines, if any.


Lets suppose a worst case scenario:

John Doe modifies his car. Somehow he screws up the pollution control system, and fails the Emissions test. They tell him to have the car restored to its previous state. He does so and passes the E-test.

He reconnects his gizmos for more experiments. He's pulled over because steam is pouring out from his hood. The cops give him a notice to appear with said malfunctioning equipment removed, and the problem fixed within 5 working days, or he'll get a summons to an EPA hearing.

Whoop de do. He shows up and describes his device for alternate fuel use. They wisely drop the case, but inform him of liability for failng to pass the E-test, and require him to re-test the car.

And so it goes.

Jail time? Give me a break.