18 killed in one 'friendly fire incident'.
taranaki
04-07-2003, 03:59 AM
I've just watched a news item relayed directly from a 'friendly fire' incident in which 18 people were accidentally killed by the plane that they called up to protct them.A convoy of cars and 4WD's containing American special forces and Kurdish resistance fighters was bombed by a pilot called up to provide 'air cover' against an Iraqi tank spotted ahead.
The footage was one of the most brutally honest pieces of war reporting that I have seen on television news,a British news crew was travelling with the convoy and were recording a piece to camera when the plane approached.When it became clear that they had been identified [wrongly] as the target,it was too late.There was little cover available,and the single bomb was dropped with pinpoint accuracy.We were spared the worst of the footage,but the cameraman was hit by shrapnel,and was dripping blood onto the lens of the camera.In a desparate attempt to identify the convoy,a large U.S.flag was unfurled and attatched to one of the 4WD's.The images that the cameraman captured of the burning convoy,the screams of the victims both American and Kurdish and the frantic scramble to get the wounded into secure positions as the heavily-armed burning vehicles fired off hundreds of rounds of ammunition in a terrifyingly random wall of death,the blurry images of the dead and dying as the cameraman smeared his own blood from the lens are the gruelsome reality of war.In the grand scheme of things,these deaths are just 18 amongst thousands,most of them brutal and all of them wrongful.I'd really like those of you who support the war to try and see a copy of this footage.I doubt very much that it would be shown in the uncut version on U.S.networks,but no doubt there will be uncut excerpts available on the internet.Perhaps then you will have a better understanding of what it is that I oppose so passionately.It's the pain,the futility,the sheer random horror of the killing fields,.War is evil,and the people who deliver it on their sons and daughters whiletalking of peace and liberation are deliberately and knowingly contradicting their own standards.There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war.Ioppose this war far more than I oppose the fools on both sides that caused it to happen.
The footage was one of the most brutally honest pieces of war reporting that I have seen on television news,a British news crew was travelling with the convoy and were recording a piece to camera when the plane approached.When it became clear that they had been identified [wrongly] as the target,it was too late.There was little cover available,and the single bomb was dropped with pinpoint accuracy.We were spared the worst of the footage,but the cameraman was hit by shrapnel,and was dripping blood onto the lens of the camera.In a desparate attempt to identify the convoy,a large U.S.flag was unfurled and attatched to one of the 4WD's.The images that the cameraman captured of the burning convoy,the screams of the victims both American and Kurdish and the frantic scramble to get the wounded into secure positions as the heavily-armed burning vehicles fired off hundreds of rounds of ammunition in a terrifyingly random wall of death,the blurry images of the dead and dying as the cameraman smeared his own blood from the lens are the gruelsome reality of war.In the grand scheme of things,these deaths are just 18 amongst thousands,most of them brutal and all of them wrongful.I'd really like those of you who support the war to try and see a copy of this footage.I doubt very much that it would be shown in the uncut version on U.S.networks,but no doubt there will be uncut excerpts available on the internet.Perhaps then you will have a better understanding of what it is that I oppose so passionately.It's the pain,the futility,the sheer random horror of the killing fields,.War is evil,and the people who deliver it on their sons and daughters whiletalking of peace and liberation are deliberately and knowingly contradicting their own standards.There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war.Ioppose this war far more than I oppose the fools on both sides that caused it to happen.
YogsVR4
04-07-2003, 10:02 AM
I fully support the action in Iraq regardless of the sickening sights of people dieing. The whole notion of "friendly fire" is beyond stupid. Its a traggic mistake, but its a reality of combat. It always has been and will always will be.
I totally disagree that "There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war" - tell that to all the nations on the planet who had to fight for their own freedom over the course of the last few hundred years. The war in Iraq is justified.
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I totally disagree that "There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war" - tell that to all the nations on the planet who had to fight for their own freedom over the course of the last few hundred years. The war in Iraq is justified.
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Ranger_X
04-07-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by taranaki
War is evil,and the people who deliver it on their sons and daughters whiletalking of peace and liberation are deliberately and knowingly contradicting their own standards.
Hmmmmm, well of the 535 members of congress, only one has a son or daughter in the armed forces. If you worded it as "the people who deliver it on the sons and daughters of thier patriotic countrymen" it would be more accurate.
Originally posted by taranaki
There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war
If there were no allied forces in WW2, would so many people be enjoying the freedom they do today? War is justified in many cases. If there was a full scale invasion on my country, and my loved ones were threatened in any way, I would stand and fight. The situation would have to be pretty desperate though.
The war on Iraq is FAR from justified though. Directly fighting for your lives and freedom is one thing, going half way around the world to make preemptive strikes on an "evil" man is another.
War is evil,and the people who deliver it on their sons and daughters whiletalking of peace and liberation are deliberately and knowingly contradicting their own standards.
Hmmmmm, well of the 535 members of congress, only one has a son or daughter in the armed forces. If you worded it as "the people who deliver it on the sons and daughters of thier patriotic countrymen" it would be more accurate.
Originally posted by taranaki
There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war
If there were no allied forces in WW2, would so many people be enjoying the freedom they do today? War is justified in many cases. If there was a full scale invasion on my country, and my loved ones were threatened in any way, I would stand and fight. The situation would have to be pretty desperate though.
The war on Iraq is FAR from justified though. Directly fighting for your lives and freedom is one thing, going half way around the world to make preemptive strikes on an "evil" man is another.
taranaki
04-07-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by YogsVR4
I totally disagree that "There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war" - tell that to all the nations on the planet who had to fight for their own freedom over the course of the last few hundred years. The war in Iraq is justified.
The war in Iraq has never been justified.
at the latest count,George Bush has indirectly ordered the deaths of about 1000 civilians,14,000 Iraqis who elected to fight for their freedom,and 100 or so aggressors[approximately half of whom have died in transport accidents or been bombed/shot by their own side.
As yet,there is no evidence to support his actions,nor any signs that either Bin Laden OR Saddam Hussein will be brought to justice.
I totally disagree that "There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war" - tell that to all the nations on the planet who had to fight for their own freedom over the course of the last few hundred years. The war in Iraq is justified.
The war in Iraq has never been justified.
at the latest count,George Bush has indirectly ordered the deaths of about 1000 civilians,14,000 Iraqis who elected to fight for their freedom,and 100 or so aggressors[approximately half of whom have died in transport accidents or been bombed/shot by their own side.
As yet,there is no evidence to support his actions,nor any signs that either Bin Laden OR Saddam Hussein will be brought to justice.
pontiactrac
04-07-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by taranaki
The war in Iraq has never been justified.
at the latest count,George Bush has indirectly ordered the deaths of about 1000 civilians,14,000 Iraqis who elected to fight for their freedom,and 100 or so aggressors[approximately half of whom have died in transport accidents or been bombed/shot by their own side.
As yet,there is no evidence to support his actions,nor any signs that either Bin Laden OR Saddam Hussein will be brought to justice.
Taranaki, what is your point? Was war supposed to be something of fighter jets dropping roses on the dictator and his party? There are always going to be accidents. That is why we train our troops harder than anyone else in the world to combat these mistakes and the enemy. When you said that no war is never justified, Ranger X is right with the part of WWII. You would be living under hitler controlled forces. Forget about you rights to speak out against this and that, without certain amounts of war, you would have NOTHING. War comes in many different forms, there is war for territory, (What Iraq did when they invaded Kuwait, and also the countless European colonies taken by force in past history) and there is a war full of purpose like the one we are close to ending now in Iraq (free the people, protect the world) And another this is this... Were did you get 1000 civilian casualties. I was watching the news yesterday, and coming from a clip from IRAQI CONTROLLED NEWS network, they claimed around 800. If it was more, you could count on them saying more. So i dont know were you heard 1000 but watch the fair sources, not the one's out for propaganda, unless of course you are going to claim CNN is about propaganda because it's american.
The war in Iraq has never been justified.
at the latest count,George Bush has indirectly ordered the deaths of about 1000 civilians,14,000 Iraqis who elected to fight for their freedom,and 100 or so aggressors[approximately half of whom have died in transport accidents or been bombed/shot by their own side.
As yet,there is no evidence to support his actions,nor any signs that either Bin Laden OR Saddam Hussein will be brought to justice.
Taranaki, what is your point? Was war supposed to be something of fighter jets dropping roses on the dictator and his party? There are always going to be accidents. That is why we train our troops harder than anyone else in the world to combat these mistakes and the enemy. When you said that no war is never justified, Ranger X is right with the part of WWII. You would be living under hitler controlled forces. Forget about you rights to speak out against this and that, without certain amounts of war, you would have NOTHING. War comes in many different forms, there is war for territory, (What Iraq did when they invaded Kuwait, and also the countless European colonies taken by force in past history) and there is a war full of purpose like the one we are close to ending now in Iraq (free the people, protect the world) And another this is this... Were did you get 1000 civilian casualties. I was watching the news yesterday, and coming from a clip from IRAQI CONTROLLED NEWS network, they claimed around 800. If it was more, you could count on them saying more. So i dont know were you heard 1000 but watch the fair sources, not the one's out for propaganda, unless of course you are going to claim CNN is about propaganda because it's american.
Toksin
04-07-2003, 06:20 PM
The two things that got me about that video was the horn of the one car just screaming the whole time. That sound in the background that just wouldn't stop. Also the blood on the camera.
Ugh.
Why are there so many friendly fire incidents?
Ugh.
Why are there so many friendly fire incidents?
Pick
04-07-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by taranaki
I've just watched a news item relayed directly from a 'friendly fire' incident in which 18 people were accidentally killed by the plane that they called up to protct them.A convoy of cars and 4WD's containing American special forces and Kurdish resistance fighters was bombed by a pilot called up to provide 'air cover' against an Iraqi tank spotted ahead.
The footage was one of the most brutally honest pieces of war reporting that I have seen on television news,a British news crew was travelling with the convoy and were recording a piece to camera when the plane approached.When it became clear that they had been identified [wrongly] as the target,it was too late.There was little cover available,and the single bomb was dropped with pinpoint accuracy.We were spared the worst of the footage,but the cameraman was hit by shrapnel,and was dripping blood onto the lens of the camera.In a desparate attempt to identify the convoy,a large U.S.flag was unfurled and attatched to one of the 4WD's.The images that the cameraman captured of the burning convoy,the screams of the victims both American and Kurdish and the frantic scramble to get the wounded into secure positions as the heavily-armed burning vehicles fired off hundreds of rounds of ammunition in a terrifyingly random wall of death,the blurry images of the dead and dying as the cameraman smeared his own blood from the lens are the gruelsome reality of war.In the grand scheme of things,these deaths are just 18 amongst thousands,most of them brutal and all of them wrongful.I'd really like those of you who support the war to try and see a copy of this footage.I doubt very much that it would be shown in the uncut version on U.S.networks,but no doubt there will be uncut excerpts available on the internet.Perhaps then you will have a better understanding of what it is that I oppose so passionately.It's the pain,the futility,the sheer random horror of the killing fields,.War is evil,and the people who deliver it on their sons and daughters whiletalking of peace and liberation are deliberately and knowingly contradicting their own standards.There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war.Ioppose this war far more than I oppose the fools on both sides that caused it to happen.
Taranaki, are you a god-fearing man?
I've just watched a news item relayed directly from a 'friendly fire' incident in which 18 people were accidentally killed by the plane that they called up to protct them.A convoy of cars and 4WD's containing American special forces and Kurdish resistance fighters was bombed by a pilot called up to provide 'air cover' against an Iraqi tank spotted ahead.
The footage was one of the most brutally honest pieces of war reporting that I have seen on television news,a British news crew was travelling with the convoy and were recording a piece to camera when the plane approached.When it became clear that they had been identified [wrongly] as the target,it was too late.There was little cover available,and the single bomb was dropped with pinpoint accuracy.We were spared the worst of the footage,but the cameraman was hit by shrapnel,and was dripping blood onto the lens of the camera.In a desparate attempt to identify the convoy,a large U.S.flag was unfurled and attatched to one of the 4WD's.The images that the cameraman captured of the burning convoy,the screams of the victims both American and Kurdish and the frantic scramble to get the wounded into secure positions as the heavily-armed burning vehicles fired off hundreds of rounds of ammunition in a terrifyingly random wall of death,the blurry images of the dead and dying as the cameraman smeared his own blood from the lens are the gruelsome reality of war.In the grand scheme of things,these deaths are just 18 amongst thousands,most of them brutal and all of them wrongful.I'd really like those of you who support the war to try and see a copy of this footage.I doubt very much that it would be shown in the uncut version on U.S.networks,but no doubt there will be uncut excerpts available on the internet.Perhaps then you will have a better understanding of what it is that I oppose so passionately.It's the pain,the futility,the sheer random horror of the killing fields,.War is evil,and the people who deliver it on their sons and daughters whiletalking of peace and liberation are deliberately and knowingly contradicting their own standards.There can be no moral use of the word freedom to justify war.Ioppose this war far more than I oppose the fools on both sides that caused it to happen.
Taranaki, are you a god-fearing man?
taranaki
04-08-2003, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by Pick
Taranaki, are you a god-fearing man?
You cannot fear that which you do not believe exists.There's another belief that you may choose to hold against me.
Taranaki, are you a god-fearing man?
You cannot fear that which you do not believe exists.There's another belief that you may choose to hold against me.
inferno
04-08-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by taranaki
--Somebody tell me.Will bombing Iraq ever bring the World Trade Center back?
I would like to know what the point is to using that in your sig. It seems that your opinion on the motives of the war against Iraq keep changing.
--Somebody tell me.Will bombing Iraq ever bring the World Trade Center back?
I would like to know what the point is to using that in your sig. It seems that your opinion on the motives of the war against Iraq keep changing.
YogsVR4
04-08-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by taranaki
The war in Iraq has never been justified.
at the latest count,George Bush has indirectly ordered the deaths of about 1000 civilians,14,000 Iraqis who elected to fight for their freedom,and 100 or so aggressors[approximately half of whom have died in transport accidents or been bombed/shot by their own side.
As yet,there is no evidence to support his actions,nor any signs that either Bin Laden OR Saddam Hussein will be brought to justice.
Yes - the war in Iraq has been justified.
Ordered deaths? Bizzare statement. What executive order said kill a thousand civilians? Was that the total it required or was this an order that said shoot only for women and children too :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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The war in Iraq has never been justified.
at the latest count,George Bush has indirectly ordered the deaths of about 1000 civilians,14,000 Iraqis who elected to fight for their freedom,and 100 or so aggressors[approximately half of whom have died in transport accidents or been bombed/shot by their own side.
As yet,there is no evidence to support his actions,nor any signs that either Bin Laden OR Saddam Hussein will be brought to justice.
Yes - the war in Iraq has been justified.
Ordered deaths? Bizzare statement. What executive order said kill a thousand civilians? Was that the total it required or was this an order that said shoot only for women and children too :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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inferno
04-08-2003, 10:13 AM
Oh, and to get back to the topic of the original post, I'm sure that friendly fire incidents have happened in every war since the introduction of the gun. Also, any live action scenes of people being killed/injured isn't going to exactly be pretty, whether it be friendly fire or fire from the enemy. I guess it is a good thing that you got out of the military so that you will have a smaller chance of seeing such things up close.
jon@af
04-08-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by inferno
Oh, and to get back to the topic of the original post, I'm sure that friendly fire incidents have happened in every war since the introduction of the gun. Also, any live action scenes of people being killed/injured isn't going to exactly be pretty, whether it be friendly fire or fire from the enemy. I guess it is a good thing that you got out of the military so that you will have a smaller chance of seeing such things up close.
I think that sums it up nicely. Accidents are bound to happen in some way shape or form, and when it occurs in war in the form of friendly fire it is indeed disheartening, but not unexpected. I only hope we can keep the number of those killed in friendly fire incidents to a minimum.
Oh, and to get back to the topic of the original post, I'm sure that friendly fire incidents have happened in every war since the introduction of the gun. Also, any live action scenes of people being killed/injured isn't going to exactly be pretty, whether it be friendly fire or fire from the enemy. I guess it is a good thing that you got out of the military so that you will have a smaller chance of seeing such things up close.
I think that sums it up nicely. Accidents are bound to happen in some way shape or form, and when it occurs in war in the form of friendly fire it is indeed disheartening, but not unexpected. I only hope we can keep the number of those killed in friendly fire incidents to a minimum.
taranaki
04-09-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by inferno
I would like to know what the point is to using that in your sig. It seems that your opinion on the motives of the war against Iraq keep changing.
There have been many theories advanced as to why this war was waged.These opinions are coming from both sides of the argument,and the vague excuses for the invasion do nothing to clarify the object of the exercise.
Cynic that I am,I can't help wondering what the real motives for this war were.
I would like to know what the point is to using that in your sig. It seems that your opinion on the motives of the war against Iraq keep changing.
There have been many theories advanced as to why this war was waged.These opinions are coming from both sides of the argument,and the vague excuses for the invasion do nothing to clarify the object of the exercise.
Cynic that I am,I can't help wondering what the real motives for this war were.
inferno
04-09-2003, 01:29 PM
Well, going further into that statement in your sig, catching Osama Bin Laden won't bring the towers back either, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. In my opinion, I feel that the objectives of the war haven't changed and have been stated outright since the beginning; to find and confiscate WMD and to remove Saddam's regime from power.
taranaki
04-09-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by inferno
Well, going further into that statement in your sig, catching Osama Bin Laden won't bring the towers back either, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. In my opinion, I feel that the objectives of the war haven't changed and have been stated outright since the beginning; to find and confiscate WMD and to remove Saddam's regime from power.
No WMD there to find,imposing a 'democracy' of U.S.-approved leaders on Iraq will not work,no Al-Quaeda activity detected,STILL no sign of Osama Bin Laden,and the United States still gives funding to autocrats and despots of its preferred choice[Saudi Arabia and Egypt] provided they support Mr Bush's aspirations for control of Iraq........
The families of the WTC outrage are still waiting for justice.This war never was going to bring it.
Well, going further into that statement in your sig, catching Osama Bin Laden won't bring the towers back either, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. In my opinion, I feel that the objectives of the war haven't changed and have been stated outright since the beginning; to find and confiscate WMD and to remove Saddam's regime from power.
No WMD there to find,imposing a 'democracy' of U.S.-approved leaders on Iraq will not work,no Al-Quaeda activity detected,STILL no sign of Osama Bin Laden,and the United States still gives funding to autocrats and despots of its preferred choice[Saudi Arabia and Egypt] provided they support Mr Bush's aspirations for control of Iraq........
The families of the WTC outrage are still waiting for justice.This war never was going to bring it.
Pick
04-09-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by taranaki
You cannot fear that which you do not believe exists.There's another belief that you may choose to hold against me.
I will not hold that against you. It is something that some people have no use for and others do. I just would like to find a definition of morality from a non-Christian. It seems as if you just don't believe anybody ever did anything out of pure good will or honesty. My opinion, and I don't think that that is a bad thing. It is just hard to go through life so pessimistic. Oh well, to each their own. I still respect your opinion just as much.
You cannot fear that which you do not believe exists.There's another belief that you may choose to hold against me.
I will not hold that against you. It is something that some people have no use for and others do. I just would like to find a definition of morality from a non-Christian. It seems as if you just don't believe anybody ever did anything out of pure good will or honesty. My opinion, and I don't think that that is a bad thing. It is just hard to go through life so pessimistic. Oh well, to each their own. I still respect your opinion just as much.
Pick
04-09-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by taranaki
No WMD there to find,imposing a 'democracy' of U.S.-approved leaders on Iraq will not work,no Al-Quaeda activity detected,STILL no sign of Osama Bin Laden,and the United States still gives funding to autocrats and despots of its preferred choice[Saudi Arabia and Egypt] provided they support Mr Bush's aspirations for control of Iraq........
The families of the WTC outrage are still waiting for justice.This war never was going to bring it.
What people would the U.S. be depriving of leadership responsiblities if they set up a government of their choosing? As of right now, the people have NO control. At least with our government they can live safely without worrying about getting their daughters raped and husbands/wives killed. And, how do even know that we are hoing to totally control this government? We might let the U.N. decide what should happen.
No WMD there to find,imposing a 'democracy' of U.S.-approved leaders on Iraq will not work,no Al-Quaeda activity detected,STILL no sign of Osama Bin Laden,and the United States still gives funding to autocrats and despots of its preferred choice[Saudi Arabia and Egypt] provided they support Mr Bush's aspirations for control of Iraq........
The families of the WTC outrage are still waiting for justice.This war never was going to bring it.
What people would the U.S. be depriving of leadership responsiblities if they set up a government of their choosing? As of right now, the people have NO control. At least with our government they can live safely without worrying about getting their daughters raped and husbands/wives killed. And, how do even know that we are hoing to totally control this government? We might let the U.N. decide what should happen.
taranaki
04-09-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Pick
We might let the U.N. decide what should happen.
The concept that George Bush might not is unthinkable.He has no right to impose any solution on the Iraqi people.
We might let the U.N. decide what should happen.
The concept that George Bush might not is unthinkable.He has no right to impose any solution on the Iraqi people.
bowtiebandit
04-09-2003, 08:02 PM
Somebody tell me.Will bombing Iraq ever bring the World Trade Center back?
It won't
The UN should be the ones that set up the initial government. The us has no business in it other than it's input through the UN. But then again the UN needs to grow some balls and do what it was originally intended to, whether it be for or against any nation and yes even the US.
A true league of nations needs to be established so 12 years of offenses never happens again. If they make a resolution there should be no "gray" area and serious consequences for breakng it from all nations. Just thoughts on it.
It won't
The UN should be the ones that set up the initial government. The us has no business in it other than it's input through the UN. But then again the UN needs to grow some balls and do what it was originally intended to, whether it be for or against any nation and yes even the US.
A true league of nations needs to be established so 12 years of offenses never happens again. If they make a resolution there should be no "gray" area and serious consequences for breakng it from all nations. Just thoughts on it.
Pick
04-10-2003, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by bowtiebandit
Somebody tell me.Will bombing Iraq ever bring the World Trade Center back?
It won't
The UN should be the ones that set up the initial government. The us has no business in it other than it's input through the UN. But then again the UN needs to grow some balls and do what it was originally intended to, whether it be for or against any nation and yes even the US.
A true league of nations needs to be established so 12 years of offenses never happens again. If they make a resolution there should be no "gray" area and serious consequences for breakng it from all nations. Just thoughts on it.
I agree. We should do our job and get the hell out of there.
Somebody tell me.Will bombing Iraq ever bring the World Trade Center back?
It won't
The UN should be the ones that set up the initial government. The us has no business in it other than it's input through the UN. But then again the UN needs to grow some balls and do what it was originally intended to, whether it be for or against any nation and yes even the US.
A true league of nations needs to be established so 12 years of offenses never happens again. If they make a resolution there should be no "gray" area and serious consequences for breakng it from all nations. Just thoughts on it.
I agree. We should do our job and get the hell out of there.
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