Transmission disengages between 1st and 2nd

1998 3.8 Windstar 147K. No previous indications of a problem. Problem occured 5 minutes into first drive of the day while pulling away from a stop. Vehicle pulled away normally through 1st gear, trans seemed to begin to shift into second gear, but just disengaged as if being shifted into neutral. Coasting down to to a stop reengaged 1st gear as if normal, but pulling away results in the same symptoms.

Reverse works normally. Selecting gear 1 holds in gear 1 normally. All other gear selections result in no shifts past first gear. Trans fluid looks normal, speedometer and tach operate normally, and no warning lights present on dash. Problem always present, not intermittant.

Any ideas?

Hello-

The first place to start is by checking the fluid level. Could be your just low on fluid. If that's okay - how long has it been since your last transmission fluid/filter change. The consensus on this web site is at about every 20K - 30K miles you should be doing that maintenance. If you take care of those two issues and still have the problem - the next reasonable thing to do would be to replace the TRS (aka neutral safety switch). A faulty switch or connection can cause some pretty unusual symptoms - and not throw a code. After that the next most likely and least expensive would be to replace the shift solenoid 1. If you have experience maintaining your vehicle - you could do all those jobs in a long weekend for about 125 bucks.
If you did all that and still had the problem - you need to get to a transmission shop ( you may want to do this 1st depending on your level of experience) and go for a ride with the transmission analyzer hooked up and find out what the computer is doing while that tranny is fumbling for 2nd gear. If the computer is functioning properly then you more than likely have an internal issue and may be looking at a transmission rebuild.

Good Luck-
Glenn

Normally, when you select the 2nd gear on a Windstar, it should start in 2nd gear.
If it disengages suddenly in 2nd, or past the 1st gear in Drive, the problem is obviously the 2nd gear.

I don't think it's the TRS. Your torque converter seems to be good too.

Glenn says that it can be the shift solenoid 1-2, I think it's that. It's the 1st thing to check. Common failure also.

If it's not that, it can also be the 2nd gear piston clutch. But I doubt.

Thanks.

A co-worker that is an ASE MM, although mostly GM products, suggested I try a wide open throttle through first gear to try to skip second gear. He has seen the sun ring on the the front planetary set strip in one catastropic moment (no slipage leading up to the event) causing 2nd, 4th, and reverse to be lost. In that situaton the PCM doesn't detect the failure until it sets a code for extended high RPM driving.

I tried WOT to 5800 rpm (44 miles per hour) and it didn't go into third.

More questions:
Is this an electric solenid or hydraulic solenoid?
How would I check it?
Does anyone have an ATSG schmatic for this transimission?

I suggest you be VERY careful with the WOT test at 147K miles. You could be looking to replace the engine as well.

Check a recent thread from Jeckler on a hard 1 -2 shift. It will have all the solenoid information you need.

Glenn

Is this an electric solenid or hydraulic solenoid?
It's an electro-hydraulic solenoid. We are not in 15th century to have pure hydraulic system.


How would I check it?
It's located in the trans pan. Here's a photo of the precise location:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a187/swartlkk/2000%20Bravada/trans_solenoids.gif?t=1245450041

Your part is the 367a, at the left of the trans (the picture is mirrored from the reality) when you're facing the car.

To check it, you disconnect the wires, you apply current on it with the 12V battery, and you must hear a click noise.

Does anyone have an ATSG schmatic for this transimission?

Yes, there's the schema:

http://www.geocities.com/serge_saati/shift_solenoid.jpg

It's the shift solenoid 1.


If you want to skip the 1st gear, try that instead:

Put in 1 manually.
Go at 40 mph (not necessary WOT)
Release the accelerator at 15%.
Put in D directly.


You should get in 3rd.

Excellent response, thanks. Looks like I have my Saturday worked out.

About the 15th century comment: I guess I deserved that, but I'm really not a dolt; I just don't take anything for granite. I manage a maintainabilty engineering group for an company that reverse engineers engines, trans, axles, electrical systems, phenumatic, and hydraulic systems for the US military.

I really appreciate the schematic and advice, thanks again.

I was just joking. LOL

I was just joking. LOL

I know, it had to be said.

BTW, How do you like your 99? I love my 98 and I don't know how I'd feel not having the huge driver door as a trade of the driver side sliding rear door on the 99. Unfortunately, the time is drawing near when I'll need to replace it and I don't know what mini van, ford or otherwise, I'll end up with.

I like the 99 very much. Very comfortable to drive, a lot of space inside. The driver door is not so small.

When you'll replace your van, I don't recommend you a Ford again. They looks very well, but they have very bad transmission that break often. I know many peoples who have their 04-05 Freestar 4.2L needed a transmission rebuild after 50k miles only.

I suggest you a new Toyota Sienna. At least you'll have something that last, you'll have the quality.

On the rear of the tranny case, there is a "lo-range" servo and a "hi-range" servo. Behind some heat schields. They are entire hydraulic units ... pistons, springs and seals. I had a failure with a circlip breaking in the lo-range servo. Possibly was a freak ... but gave symptoms similar to yours .. IIRC.

Not the easiest things to reach ... best to lower the rear of the sub-frame a bit.

Have the same problem. Looks like this:
http://rapidshare.com/files/373797851/wolnobieg1.mp4
http://rapidshare.com/files/373797942/wolnobieg2.mp4
Oil level is OK, running about 17k miles. Previous change was made after 15k miles.
I called this a "freewheel" as I remember such clutch in oldie cars.
This happens only when engine/AT is cold. After a while (up to 1 mile) it starts to work without any problems. I heard (can't find post) that shift valve should be changed every 60k miles. wiswind - are you still using Auto RX?
The topic is quite old but maybe someone will write how problem was solved...

PS> I found this: http://www.aa1car.com/library/transmission_ford_ax4s.htm although theres no answer to topic, might be usefull...

Your transmission is done. The problem is not the second gear clutch, but the 1-2 piston clutch. Or maybe the 1-2 shift valve. It takes time to shift to the 2nd.

The original poster had replaced his Windstar by a Freestar. I think it's how he gets rid of the problem.

I found that Ford recommends replacing EPC every 90kkm (60k miles). Could malfunction of EPC cause such problems and only when engine/AT is cold? As its getting warmer every day, the tranny starts to shift earlier.

No, I don't think it's the EPC. Cause this one controls the torque converter, which affect all gears, not just the second. TC is like the clutch of a manual car. You can't even run in 1st if it malfunctions.

In an automatic, you have many clutches bands, but it's not a clutch bands problem.
It doesn't slip. So I think it's a piston clutch problem. The one who activate the clutch bands.

Or the shift valve that activate the piston clutch.

I don't know why it happens only when it's cold. Maybe because there's more pressure when it's getting hot, so piston clutch activates more easily.

I bought and replaced all solenoids (3xshift, TCC and EPC) and no improvement. This was to be done (as it might help) before taking the tranny out. The mechanics says that I probably don't have proper oil pressure. But why this happens only when it's cold and stops after driving for about 1 mile? Oil was clean, no signs of burning, no mess in the oil pan...

Have you taken a look at the two servos on the rear of the tranny?

The mechanics says that I probably don't have proper oil pressure. But why this happens only when it's cold and stops after driving for about 1 mile? Oil was clean, no signs of burning, no mess in the oil pan...

Because like I said, when oil heats up, pressure increase. So yes, maybe the trans oil pump was weak, but it would affect all gears, not just the 2nd. So it's not that.

It's why I said I think it's a bad 1-2 shift valve. It might be stuck (caused by deformation or perforation). When it heats, the pressure helps to open.

It's why I said I think it's a bad 1-2 shift valve. It might be stuck (caused by deformation or perforation). When it heats, the pressure helps to open.
I've replaced all three shift solenoids. Unless there's other valve that should be replaced... "caused by deformation" - don't know the English name but is it the 'Main steering board" that could be deformed by overheating the tranny? The problem is not the second gear clutch, but the 1-2 piston clutch. Or maybe the 1-2 shift valve. Where is the piston clutch?

12ounce - aren't those two servos responsible for reverse and OD function? If yes, could it cause problems only between 1 and 2 gear? What other functions have those servos?

wiswind wrote in his very useful "General Windstar Information": A very common, inexpensive failure with the transmission not shifting correctly is caused by the Transmission Range Sensor ( TRS) which is also called Neutral Safety switch. For more information on this, do a search on " TRS "...
I was thinking of that, but if it's TRS then problems should be on all gears not only shifting 1-2. Searching forum I found that TRS is responsible to pass information what gear is selected while my tranny behaves like loosing a gear. When I slow down it engages 1 gear whithout any problem, and then again looses it till 1 mile driving.

The two servos can be thought of as hydraulic "amplifiers" ... they convert a small oil signal from the control circuits into larger forces that engage the clutches. They are necessary in all clutch engagements and shifting. They are bi-directional and only two required for 4 forward speeds and reverse. They consist of o-ring seals, springs, cyls, pistons .... pretty easy stuff, just hard to get to.

I've replaced all three shift solenoids. Unless there's other valve that should be replaced... "caused by deformation" - don't know the English name but is it the 'Main steering board" that could be deformed by overheating the tranny? Where is the piston clutch?

Ok then, I think your problem is definitively the 1-2 piston clutch pack (not band). It's located inside the transmission near the planetary gear sets. You need an overhaul to replace it. Very hard to do it. So I suggest you to replace the whole transmission instead.


wiswind wrote in his very useful "General Windstar Information": A very common, inexpensive failure with the transmission not shifting correctly is caused by the Transmission Range Sensor ( TRS) which is also called Neutral Safety switch. For more information on this, do a search on " TRS "...
I was thinking of that, but if it's TRS then problems should be on all gears not only shifting 1-2. Searching forum I found that TRS is responsible to pass information what gear is selected while my tranny behaves like loosing a gear. When I slow down it engages 1 gear whithout any problem, and then again looses it till 1 mile driving.

I'm sure the problem is not the TRS in your case. Like you said, it would happen to each gear (include 1st) and rev up would not help. I remember in your video, when you rev up, gear change helps.
TRS problem would cause the transmission to go down in neutral, not in 1st.

Your problem is obviously not electric. Unfortunately not. It's purely mechanical.

And like I said, when fluid heats up, pressure increases, and it helps actuating piston clutch to activate the gear sets.

>But why this happens only when it's cold and stops after driving for about 1 mile?

I have not torn down the ATX, and I'm only familiar with the repair of automatic transaxels in principle rather than practice, so for ultimate help I defer to the other posters.

However, I think one possible explaination for this symptom is a bad seal in the hydraulic path. For example the servos metioned by 12Ounce, which are hydraulic pistons, have rings to seal the high pressure fluid in the chamber. I think the function of the servos is apply the force that holds the bands on the planetary gear assemblies, which is how the different gear ratios are realized. If the servos are leaking, then the applied force is low, and the band doesn't grab the gear.

Since the hydraulic fluid gets thinner as this heats up, a leak around a seal would be more noticable at higher temperatures. There are probably other wear points in the transmission that would allow fluid to leak, for example, the valves in the valve body.

A transmission shop should have a control unit that will override the PCM and allow the mechanic to actuate the individual parts of the transmission to isolate problems like this one.

However, I think one possible explaination for this symptom is a bad seal in the hydraulic path. For example the servos metioned by 12Ounce, which are hydraulic pistons, have rings to seal the high pressure fluid in the chamber. I think the function of the servos is apply the force that holds the bands on the planetary gear assemblies, which is how the different gear ratios are realized. If the servos are leaking, then the applied force is low, and the band doesn't grab the gear.

I 100% agree with that. A blown ring seal of the puston clutch could be the cause.
However, the transmission still need to be removed and rebuilded.

I've translated the whole thread for my mechanic. To give him a clue...
> If the servos are leaking, then the applied force is low, and the band doesn't grab the gear.
Since the hydraulic fluid gets thinner as this heats up, a leak around a seal would be more noticable at higher temperatures.
Maybe I'm wrong but: if the ATF gets thinner at higher temp, then such a leak should be more noticeable when hot, not when cold. Unless it's not a leak, but blocked channel, valve etc. which prevents fluid in getting where it should.
If the "main steering board" (whats the proper name?) is deformed then this could be a cause. When it heats up, it gets its proper dimension/position/flatness/diameters and allows the pistons to work properly and the fluid will pass through. But usually such overheated AT behaves opposite way - shifts properly when cold and have problems when temperature goes up.
I found on the forum a test: drive with 1st gear up to 40mph and switch to D. This should cause the tranny to switch form 1 to 3.
But I'm a bit afraid of such experiments. Is there any other way to force the tranny to switch from 1st to 3rd gear?
Is there a way to put tranny (safely) in limp mode? Then it should run only on 2'd gear and I'll check if it gets it when cold.

PS. if there's any misspelling, grammatic mistakes let me know via private message and I'll correct my posts.

When ATF heats up, it gets thinner and it expanses. So pressure increases and it helps, even if the leaks increase a little bit inside.

About the blocked channel, it makes senses theoretically. But it's not probable. I never heard about a blocked transmission channel. It may be blocked if your ATF was black and if your transmission slips, which indicate burned clutch bands. But if it's clean and no slip, no reasons to be blocked.

About the valve body deformation when it's cold, it just makes no senses. A slight change in temp would not not cause to deform completely and reform at each time. Valves body in Windstar are made to resist to transmission temperature.

The tricks to passes directly from 1 to 3 may works, but it's not good for both engine and transmission. Cause you will rev up at 5500rpm, and the rpm drops is too much while gears change, and it's not good. There's no other ways to bypass the 2nd gear.

Have you taken a look at the two servos on the rear of the tranny?

Back with the same problem. Servos have been replaced but problem still exists. What was strange that next morning after replacing servos the tranny worked perfectly. But after few hours problems returned. During work they replaced servos, and of course disconnecting battery, connectors to tranny and a reset was performed. I thought that maybe reset helped but disconnecting battery overnight didn't help. Could such problems be caused by wrong electrical connections? Where are those connectors? Maybe I'll try to clean them up with some contact cleaner and then WD-40? Next week I'm appointed for tranny rebuild but maybe some other suggestion before they take everything out.

Do a final test drive. When it's cold, drive the van in 2nd gear position. It'll run in 2nd all the time. Do few mile below 25 mph.

If the the problem disappears, it's something electrical. But I doubt it'll be.

The job was done a month ago so its persistent. I don't know if there's a difference between AX4N and AX4S but in mine tranny, if I put it in 2, it switches between 1 and 2. The rest is normal: positon 1 - only 1st gear, position D with overdrive blocked makes changes 1-2-3, and putting overdrive on makes all changes 1-2-3-4. When tranny looses gear I can force it to engage 1st gear by switching to 1 or simply slow down till it engages 1st gear on its own. And still this happens only during first mile driving.

sorry to bring this thread up again.. but my van has symptoms similar to what the OP has. Driving along shifts to 2nd but seems to slip into neutral for just a second. Now the fluid was slightly down so I've topped that up and it is time for a fluid change. So, I'm wondering if anyone has found like is mentioned in this thread that the 1-2 shift solenoid does often fail. Any thoughts?

No, a bad shift solenoid will never cause the transmission to shift in neutral. It would just be stuck in 1st if it's the 1-2 shift solenoid.
When it shift in neutral, it's always by the hydraulic, so you have an hydraulic problem. It could be the 2nd gear piston clutch which could be cracked.

That is a service guide of the Windstar transmission if you need to know where the parts are located for example:
http://ford-windstar.ru/manual/AXOD-HB.pdf

thanks Serge. I just added the proper fluid and took it for a quick drive. It drives ok but for just a second between 1st and 2nd the rpm jumps ever so slightly. This is the first time it happened so I'm going to keep an eye on it. It hasn't had a fluid/filter change in about 30,000 km so I think I should do that. Is a 2nd gear piston clutch crack common? Does it really mean we're soon to need a new trans?

No, actually cracked piston clutches are usually a problem of older Windstar (1995) because they were built in aluminium. They were redesigned for 1996+.

In newer Windstar, the most common causes are:
-worn trans oil pump shafts which is caused by poorly designed pump shaft bearing
-Cracked or Broken Transmission Case which is caused by the final drive differential which has a weak ring gear and causes a lot of trans fluid to leak out
-worn boost valves for main line pressure and torque converter clutch application

In your case, the most probable cause is worn main line pressure boost valve. This valve controls pressure within the main transmisson hydraulic circuits, so all gear shifts can be adversely affected. The valve piston is cylindrically shaped and is designed to fit snugly within an aluminum sleeve. Because the pressure valve is fairly short relative to its height, its leading and trailing edges tend to wear out the sleeve. The height to length ratio, known as aspect ratio, has a directly proportional impact on the rate of wear between the valve plunger and the sleeve. Assuming the height remains constant, the shorter the valve, the faster it wears out.

When you shift from 1 to 2, there's a lot more of engine breaking than when you shift from 2 to 3 and even more than 3 to 4. So when you shift from 1 to 2, the engine breaking require to the 2nd gear piston clutch a lot of force to engage which require more hydraulic pressure. If the valve of pressure line is worn, the pressure will not be enough, and pressure will drop when piston clutches is trying to engage so it will disengage, the pressure will increase cause the draw will be reduced and the gear will re-engage and so on...

When you shift from 1 to 2, there's a lot more of engine breaking than when you shift from 2 to 3 and even more than 3 to 4. So when you shift from 1 to 2, the engine breaking require to the 2nd gear piston clutch a lot of force to engage which require more hydraulic pressure. If the valve of pressure line is worn, the pressure will not be enough, and pressure will drop when piston clutches is trying to engage so it will disengage, the pressure will increase cause the draw will be reduced and the gear will re-engage and so on...

Unless if you press a lot of gas (at the moment where the gear is being shifted) to give more rpm to the engine, it'll be much easier for the piston clutch to push the clutch bands to grab the gear because there will be no more engine breaking if the rpm is high and you will have more rotary speed, more inertia moment. The remaining obstacle will be the heavy weight of the vehicle that will still require some pressure to activate the piston clutch. Which is not very important in 2nd gear.
Try that, press more gas and see if it still fall into neutral for 1 second or not.

Hi Serge

thanks for the info. I left the van inside last night to warm it all up. I topped up the trans fluid. My wife is driving it today so I'll get the report from her... : /

I hope it was a fluid issue as it was down a bit and with the short drives, very cold days I'm really crossing my fingers that things are ok. I'll let everyone know.

IF it is the piston you refer to, I'm guessing that this isn't a do it yourself repair? I do have a 2 post hoist but have never done any ATS work.

A number of weird things can happen. I once had my Winny tranny operate only in 1st and reverse ... all of a sudden... while on a trip of a few hundred miles. I limped home, staying out of traffic, ... took the shift boost pistons out, and found a circlip had broken on one. Lucky find! I almost missed it.

can you elaborate on the shift piston repair job 12ounce? I'm just trying to figure out my next steps. I plan on replacing fluid and filter this weekend so when the fluid's out is when I'd like to do work..if it's something I can tackle myself

The two servos are on the rear of the tranny ... the fluid does not have to out to service. Both servos have caps held in place by three screws. If you remerely remove the three screws ... spring loaded stuff will pop out and get lost. The original screws are just not long enough.

Remove one screw from each cap. Find longer screws, by an inch or so, with the same threads ... or longer screws/studs along with nuts. The idea is to provide a way to safely back the caps off ... without losing control.

One of the servos is a bit high up on the tranny ... lowering the subframe a bit might help. Inspecting the pistons and replacing the O-rings and seals ... reassembling ... a good days work.

I'm betting we're talking about what's pictured in the following 2 diagrams right?
48079

48080

where did you get parts?

You can buy the parts from ATSG: https://www.atsg.us/atsg/

And from Sonnax: http://www.sonnax.com/quick-search

so my wife reports that there's still the higher revs for 1/2 second as the trans switches from 1 to 2. I spoke to my ford service advisor today about replacing the 2 servo o-rings and gaskets. He doesn't feel that will have any effect at taking care of the apparent slip.

Can someone confirm this for me? I'll do the job if it'll help but don't want to if it won't. Serge, you spoke about the main line pressure boost valve.

Is this the same component? I'm kinda confused here...
Need some help here guys! :headshake

I spoke to my ford service advisor today about replacing the 2 servo o-rings and gaskets. He doesn't feel that will have any effect at taking care of the apparent slip.

Serge, you spoke about the main line pressure boost valve.

Is this the same component? I'm kinda confused here...
Need some help here guys! :headshake

No they're two different things. Don't confuse the main line pressure boost valve piston and the servo.

The first one is used only to regulate the trans fluid pressure into the main transmission hydraulic line of the valve body. The second one are used to actuate pressure to cylinder clutch to lock the clutches bands together to engage the gears.

ok, so then what is the best route to take here? Replace the gaskets on the 2 servo piston clutches?

If so, and I know I'm asking a lot here, but what parts off the diagram would be needed? My parts guy at Ford while helpful isn't knowledgeable and will order what I ask for. He isn't offering ANY advice on which parts. I don't want to pull the whole thing apart and not have what I need, nor do I want to buy stuff I really don't.

Any help here really appreciated!

Since I had a Ford dealer nearby, I was able to remove the servo pistons first and then decide. But if you get all the soft parts for the two servos, to the right in your upper diagram, you should be OK.

Change also the main regulator boost valve along with its aluminium sleeve. They are inside the rear of the valve body. Or replace the entire valve body.
The boost valve is n°20 and is located in bore n° 37 of the valve body in the following pics.

48081

48082

The aluminium sleeve is located at right of the boost valve (n° 20).
The 3 springs you have to re install are located at left of the boost valve (n° 20).
The main regulator spring retainer is located at left of the 3 springs.

Fix also the fluid leak issue.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/359/shudderon12upshift.png

Figure 43 is actually my first pic showing the main regulator boost valve with its springs.
The main regulator spring retainer is located at left of the 3 springs.

thanks Serge and 12ounce... I know that the servo work can be done with the transmission in the van but what about the boost valve and springs? Are they able to be replaced with the trans still in the van? I haven't got a good picture in my head of where they are in relation to the transmission.

Yes you can remove the valve body with the the trans in the van.

Using terms relative to the vehicle:... the servos are on the rear of the tranny, ...the valve body is under the sheet metal cover on the left end, up close to the left wheel well metal.

that's great news Serge. Is there any documentation about how to do this? I realize I should have taken a good look before asking all these questions but right now my van is in the garage letting snow melt off of it.

All the trans info I have shows a complete tear down.. which is out of my league. My impression is the whole valve body needs to come out to replace the boost valve springs. Is this a do-able diy job? I've tackled full suspension, exhaust, brakes, diff, po174 jobs etc.. but never a trans.

The body valve removal is a very hard and complex job (level 5). It's not a DIY job. Not recommanded to do it if you have never do it.

ugg.. that's what I was fearing, but hoping wouldn't be the case.

So, I guess I'm back to just doing the servos and crossing my fingers?

When my tranny was well worn and finally giving up the ghost, but I was still in denial ... I removed the valve body cover, and I think I remember dropping the valve body and doing some work on the bench. I know I spent over $300 (back-then dollars) for varous pressure regulators, valves, ect. .... and I got nothing for my effort. (The successful servo repair was a different event.) The tranny at this time had over 200k miles on it, had already had a pump shaft replaced earlier .... it was just worn out. And I was not up to replacing the various disc packs myself. So, for less than $2000, I swapped trannies with Ford ... did the replacement myself. So far, am a happy camper some 150k miles later.

well, I dropped the pan, replaced the filter and pumped out the fluid (full fluid exchange). I used Ford Mercon V and at the advice of the Ford service dept added 2 bottles of AT-205 seal slip repair fluid. The fluid has to be in the van at operating temp for 5 hours and 30 km.

I've driven the van a little bit (5-8 km) and honestly only noticed a marginal difference :banghead:

I can only hope that upon hitting the 5 hr/30km mark things will improve. Time will tell. Particular thanks to Serge and 12Ounce; really appreciate the help you guys gave. I owe ya both a beer or 3..

I've always been told to give any transmission-related "fix" like that 250 miles (400 km) to take full effect. I'd definitely drive it a bit more before giving up and swapping for a rebuild.

yup...100% agree. I just hope that this solves the slipping. Funny, the tranny has never given any problems until 5 days ago. Never pulled a trailer, generally light loads always, fluid changed regularly, 190,000 km (126,000 miles).. crossing fingers and toes here..

would any of the symptoms I'm having possibly be VSS related?

No it's not. It's not electonics, it's a purely hydraulic problem, low pressure arriving on the piston clutch. It's probably the circlip of the servo like 12Ounce said, or the o-ring seals or springs of the servos, or piston accumulator, or o-ring of piston accumulator or the regulator valves of the valve body. Or maybe the seal of the piston clutch.
And yes, if I go to Toronto we can have a beer! :cheers:

thanks Serge... I was almost 100% certain that's what you or 12Ounce would say... I'd heard from someone else that my problems might be the VSS... (I wasn't convinced at all ...). I'm doing the servos tonight... and hoping for the best.

and yep, a beer on me anytime is good!