2003 winstar gl 3.8l coolant leak

hi all,
recently had the old girl in the shop to change manifold gasket as there was a bad oil leak. the mechanic did the work and then i had to take it back as it was still leaking. he said he had to change the gasket again as he had incorrectly istalled it so all i had to pay was gasket. all was fine no more oil leak. but everytime i accelerated i heard this air rushing sound which i assumed was the cat converter as it has a hole in it. then i am traveliing at 100km/hr when in the rear view mirror i see nothing but white smoke, my engine temp going to the high, blinking engine light.
i stopped immediately, antifreeze was all gone, so waited for engine to cool down and did a stop start back home. any help would be greatly appreciated

sorry 1996 3.8 gl

>antifreeze was all gone, so waited for engine to cool down and did a stop start back home.

Oooo. Let's hope you're OK. No coolant will usually mess things up in a big way. Not only is it essential for keeping the engine cool (warped heads, blown head gaskets), but it also keeps your transmission oil from overheating.

The first place to start is to put coolant in the resevoir and the radiator. You could start with water, just because it might leak out. After filling it up, make sure there is no water leaking out. Also, check your engine oil level and your transmission fluid level. Look at the motor oil that it isn't milky. Make sure the transmission fluid smells sweet, not burnt.

If everything checks OK, no leaks, oils look OK, go ahead a start it, letting it warm up from idle. Watch and listen for sounds of boiling, water leaking out, etc. If you see anything, stop it immediately and when the engine is cool, check the water level. It's normal for a "dry" engine to have some air space after filling it, so refill the level to the top. If repeated attempts continue to show air space, or the bubbling is immediate, there's a good chance that you have a bad head gasket, and it is pumping air into the coolant channels through the leak.

Be sure not to remove the radiator cap when the engine is above boiling, or you could be severly burned from the explosive boiling of the water. The boiling point in pressurized cooling system is higher than at ambient pressure. Taking the cap off will allow the entire volume of cooling liquid to immediately start boiling, blowing hot coolant out of the radiator cap opening.

If you're able to idle it to warm, even to the point of the cooling fans cycling, then you should drain a bit more than half the water (if you siphon it from the radiator into a 1 gallon jug, you can reasonably meter the amount, based on the total capacity of the coolling system), and replace the water with 100% coolant (not the 50/50 diluted mixtures). Use a specific gravity coolant guage to make sure you have the concentration at 50%, then add equal amounts of coolant and water to top it off.

You lost your coolant for a reason, so you'll need to carefully find the reason. It could be a leak, it could be due to a head gasket problem, or it could be that it was to low to circulate for some other reason.

I agree with the above. ... plus there is an outside chance that the thermostat is plugged or not working for other reasons ... and this will cause "coolant dumps". Too bad your mechanic did not thoroughly check things out before allowing you on the road.

During the checkout period, you may want to remove the pressure cap on the reservoir. If you have the means, you may want to remove the thermostat.

Hello Shammy-

I'm going out on a limb here and will assume a few things:
1- You weren't experiencing coolant issues before your visit to the repair shop.
2- That it was the intake manifold gasket that was replaced.
3- That while you lost coolant - you didn't mention seeing any coolant in the engine compartment - or on the ground around the vehicle.

If those three things are correct - then I'm gonna take another guess that your mechanic made another mistake - and now you have coolant leaking into the combustion chamber - and the white smoke you see - is the result of it being present during the combustion cycle and being sent out the tailpipe as steam.

If that's the case - the 1st thing you need to do is get another mechanic - and get the gaskets installed properly.

Good Luck-
Glenn

Those are good additional points. Especially the one regarding your mechanic. Also, I'm a little confused about your comment that you had a hole in your cat. I think that, depending on the size of that hole it would sound more like you're muffler wasn't working right than a steady woosh of air blowing out a hole.

As mentioned, the white smoke is telltale that coolant was getting into one or more cylinders. The white smoke is steam from the boiling of that coolant. Since he replaced a manifold gasket, and there are passages that carry coolant from the block into the lower intake manifold through that gasket, then then that is most like the initial cause rather than a head gasket. If there is any issue with the head gaskets, it is likely a result of overheating the engine.

hi all and firstly thankyou all very much for your helpfull replies.
If memeory serves me it was the intake gasket as the original problem was oil leaking. when he first chenged the manifold gasket the oil was leaking worse than before so i took it back and as he had already chrged me $800 for the same job he only charged me for parts which was $100. then everytime i accelerated i kept hearing this whooshing/ sucking air sound which I wrongly presumed was the cat converter as the mech had told me there was a hole in it and needed replacing. so far I have paid this mechanic $3600 for various work to the vehicle and am now stuck with a dead car. I am no longer willing to sink any more money in a mechanic, more to the point my wife screams ~you bought a 96 car for $1500 and you spent $3600 on repairs and you want to do WHAT!!!! so my wife is now preparing divorce papers as she says i could have brought a new car but i refuse to give up on my old girl. I am adamant i will do the repair myself and have ordered a workshop manual.

I presume it would be to my advantage to go down to the lower intake manifold gasket and replace parts and work my way up.

Thanks for your patience guys.

1. nope
2. yes
3. no no sign of coolant on ground or in engine compartment

ps thanks

You most certainly need a vehicle specific manual if you are going to do this repair.
I use the online manual www.alldatadiy.com which is the factory manual.
A generic repair manual that covers a couple of vehicles is not going to cut it.

Here is a link to the first of a series of pictures of the lower intake manifold gasket repair on my '96 3.8L.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2529449750011220610bclxqN

I would buy genuine FORD/Motorcraft parts......the gaskets are not super expensive.
You can see in that first picture.....there are 4 gaskets......Left and right intake manifold gaskets and the front and rear "end seals".

The Gaskets are marked Left and Right.
The Left side is the FRONT bank of cylinders.
The Right side is the Rear bank of cylinders.
The FRONT is the passenger side......where the alternator is.
The Rear is the driver's side.....
These locations are carried over from the rear wheel drive......they turned the motor sideways for front wheel drive.

You will need a torque wrench.....that measures INCH Pounds (most measure ft/lbs).
I recommend you get a "beam" type....not the "clicker" type as you may not feel or hear a "click" when you should at these low torque values (I broke a bolt using the clicker version).
Getting those bolts tightened to the correct torque values is critical.

When cleaning the surfaces.....do NOT use any metal tooling (including razer blade)....use only nylon or wood tooling and a good solvent.
The reason for this is that you are cleaning alluminum surfaces.....alluminum is very easy to scratch.....and coolant will wick through the scratches.

Also, when you are cleaning.....put pieces of shop towel into the intake ports.....to prevent junk (fluid and particles) from falling down into the intake.

When you put the new gaskets in place......they are to be "dry fitted".....do not try to "help out" by adding any sealant....except a small dab at the ends of the end seals as I show in the pictures.

My '96 had a obnoxious "quick connect" on the driver's side heater hose connection.
You need a special tool to press the nylon tabs in.......which you can rent/buy at AutoZone.
I would buy a quick connector "repair kit"......my '96 was 3/4" (I bought a 5/8" and it was too small).
The nylon clips on my '96 broke.....even using the proper tool....they were very brittle after many years and miles.
There are washers in the quick connector....which I show in my pictures.......
The washers are critical.......as improper assembly will result in serious leaks.
In all honesty.....I ended up cutting the quick connector off.....bending the hose bracket to get the length I needed.....and sliding the hose onto the nipple in the lower intake manifold.....and using a traditional screw type hose clamp to hold it.
I just could not feel confident in the quick connector.

It is a shame that your mechanic botched the repair job....and is not standing behind his work....
I don't need to take it to a shop to have it botched up.....I can do that all by myself at home.

You MUST replace the motor oil and filter BEFORE you start the motor after doing this job.

hi all, ok got everything off i.e upper manifold/lower manifold and could see where the gasket had blown throwing all coolant into engine. am in process of cleanibg all parts to look like new, but should i replace any parts while it is stripped and also is it worth my while to strip it further down to say remove valve heads and cylinder block as the interior of the engine is soo grimey and brown in color or am i being too ambitious as an amateur?

once again thanks for all your advise, you guys are great.

shammy

I would leave the heads in place.......the Post '95 3.8L head gaskets are much better....they thickened up the narrow places that were failing starting with 1996.
The head gaskets are more tricky than the lower intake manifold gaskets....and you are messing with the valvetrain.......more opportunity for error.

I would give the bypass hose and pipe a look.....I have it pictured in the pictures that I referred you to.

Clean things up the best you can....but avoid getting fluids and particles down into the intake.

Also....be careful with cleaning around in the upper part of the crankase......as if you dislodge too many particles....and they get down in the pan....they can clog the screen on the oil pump pickup screen....resulting in oil starvation.
I have read about this happening.

If your valve cover gaskets are leaking......(mine did not seem to be....so I left them alone)...this is as easy of time as it gets for replacing them.

I would leave the heads in place.......the Post '95 3.8L head gaskets are much better....they thickened up the narrow places that were failing starting with 1996.
The head gaskets are more tricky than the lower intake manifold gaskets....and you are messing with the valvetrain.......more opportunity for error.

I would give the bypass hose and pipe a look.....I have it pictured in the pictures that I referred you to.

Clean things up the best you can....but avoid getting fluids and particles down into the intake.

Also....be careful with cleaning around in the upper part of the crankase......as if you dislodge too many particles....and they get down in the pan....they can clog the screen on the oil pump pickup screen....resulting in oil starvation.
I have read about this happening.

If your valve cover gaskets are leaking......(mine did not seem to be....so I left them alone)...this is as easy of time as it gets for replacing them.


Thanks for your help, i was trying to get the coolant crossover tube off but cant seem to do it. by your pics: http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2410726000011220610oqcCUN

it looks like it unscrews, would you mind clarifying how this tube comes out.

thanks again

Shammy

The 96 has 2 diffrent style lower intake gaskets, 1 is about 1/8" thicker than the other one. You should get your gaskets from a Ford dealer and have them look it up by your VIN number.

I was given the wrong gaskets first time I went to the dealer, I needed the thin ones and was given the thick ones. I managed to get the intake on and some of the bolts in but it was sitting way to high and I know I would have broken the intake if I torked it down.

I wonder if since you are on the 2nd set of gaskets if your vehicle requires the thick gaskets and you have the thin ones.

As I recall.....the tube just slides in......there is a gasket on the passenger side...and the driver's side must just press into place.
Then, there is a screw/bolt that holds the unit in place......you can see the little tab that the bolt goes into in my picture......

If you look at the metal pipe.....follow from the right side....to the left.....just before the tube bends up.....and you can see the tab.
Just to the right of the tab, you can see the "O" ring gasket that seals where it passes into the lower intake manifold.

Sometimes those o-ring fittings on tubes can be very difficult to remove. Someone recently posted about losing a water pump body when the upper outlet tube was removed. On my '99, I had to use a crow-bar to remove/destroy the coolant crossover tubing that "plugs" into the lower intake manifold. The new one slid right into place.

I don't know how accurate it is....but the parts guy at the dealership when I bought my lower intake manifold gaskets told me that the thicker size would also be used if your head gaskets had been done....and the heads had been machined......
This would lower the heads somewhat......and as the heads are 2 separate units......this would make the spread that the single unit lower intake manifold would have to span slightly wider.
It seemed to make sense.
I know that I read someplace that the 1997 went to a different style head gasket.....bimetal vs the composite used on the 1996.....it is possible (I don't know) that the 2 style head gaskets could be slightly different in thickness......which could be another difference in thickness......
We are only talking 1mm difference in thickness......which milling the heads.....or head gasket thickness.....either one could account for.
As advised.....use your VIN when buying parts through the dealer...to help them accurately determine the correct part.

Actually, as the block or the heads are "surfaced" ... the heads are lowered a bit on an angle. But the enclosed angle between the heads stays the same .... so using the same thickness gaskets, the intake manifold stays the same height away from the crankshaft. But relative to the heads, the intake has shifted upward .... not a significant amount, and accounted for within machining limits.

Using thicker gaskets would aggravate this shift between the heads and intake ... better (in theory) to have thinner gaskets and let the intake lower along with the heads.

Do not change thicknesses of gaskets unless directed by Ford service documentation.

I went by what the parts person at the counter at the dealership told me.....he asked me if the heads had been off......If no....then 3mm, If yes....then 4mm.
I can only go by what they told me.....which may have been correct or not......I don't know if he was reading this or thinking it up.
It is the same person who gave me "general purpose" RTV for the corners.....which was the wrong stuff (not sensor safe).
The parts system at the dealership is the best that I have seen as far as a parts breakdown...and identifying the parts.
I thought of buying a short term membership on motorcraft website....and copying the diagrams to my computer....but it would be a LOT of stuff.
I agree......stick with the documentation.....wrong part.....not so good repair.
For these gaskets....there is not much room for error.
The new gaskets from FORD, however, are greatly improved.....so this should be a 1 time repair.

Think of the damage that fellow can do .... and personally believe he's doing a super-good job all the while ... serving the customer very well.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" ... especially to others.