Smell Radiator Fluid inside & outside when using Heater

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaack.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=668825&highlight=radiator+fluid+heater
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=365048&highlight=radiator+fluid+heater

The closest info in this subforum I could find is at the above links, though didn't particulary answer the question I'm scared to ask (for those of you who know what I've been through).

Here's a good reference too: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system2.htm

For those that know I have a new 1995 3.8L Jasper engine that was installed earlier this year (February). Since then I have driven it about 2000 miles. I'm in South Louisiana and its getting a lil cool and since I still have not resolved why my van attempts to stall, but never does at idle or at stops in Drive I was experimenting with various A/C / Heater settings yesterday.

When I use A/C mode and turn the temperature dial to WARMER or HOT, I get conditioned hot air, but I swear the temperature dial does not adjust the temp of the air and that I'm only getting "TOO HOT" air instead of a controlled temperature when using the Heater setting. Curiously enough the temperature control adjusts fine when using any A/C mode.

Problem:
When I used the Heater mode (FLOOR directed vents) just for a couple minutes I definitely smelled a strong smell of radiator fluid. This would be the first time I've used the heater since the engine was installed. As soon as I smelled this I pulled over and inspected for leaks. I smelled it outside the van too, but again saw no leaks anywhere and I'm always overly thorough, though I wish I would've had a flashlight to shine in the shadows. Will give it an even closer look today/tomorrow.

Here are the doozies: All new heater hoses. New radiator. New thermostat. New water pump. New Radiator Cap. New radiator cooling fan dropping resistor. There are no noticeable leaks to speak of. Nothing on the pavement. No drips during hot operation and I believe I got all the air out of the system with the "vehicle tilt" method after the engine was installed. After the engine was installed back in Feb/March I had noticed the coolant overflow jug was nearly 2 inches below the FULL COLD line. I'm going to check tomorrow, but I think it may be below that line again.

Another thing: I noticed under the new heater hose end where it meets the engine that there is a lot of RUST! This is a brand new engine! Could this thing be seaping/leaking out there when I'm on the road and evaporating/burning off as soon as it comes out?

Water pump - I had a really bad squeaky belt on my original Ford engine and it turned out it was the water pump going bad cause as soon as I replaced that the squeaking stopped. 2 engine installs later (due to water pump/cooling system failure; 1st replacement engine was a dud) my belt is squeaking quite a bit yet again and this had stopped when my 1st replacement dud engine was installed before.

Could something from the previous cooling system failure have been stuck in the cooling system? I know for sure when I was overheating with my original engine that I used the heater to take some edge off the engine bay. Could something have lodged in the heater core passages during that time? If air is getting into the cooling system could this explain why the water pump might be squeaking again?... if its the water pump squeaking that is.

Scared - About the head gaskets, though they are supposed to be the new MLS (steel) kind in this engine. I'm gonna hope this is a last resort thought.

Workaround - If its the heater core can I just not use the heater and the van should be ok?

Thought - Could my almost stall problem be caused by this indirectly? IE: it only "almost stalls" when hot at idle or stopped in drive. ONLY WHEN HOT. On the road it really drives wonderful though.

Maybe it is some coolant residue that you are smelling now because the air is flowing over the heater core....
If it is leaking there.....you should see some coolant come out someplace (might run out the drain that the A/C water comes out.....in the firewall).

Squeaking might be from oil/coolant getting onto the belt....only solution for that would be a new belt....make sure that all the pulley surfaces are clean before installing the new belt.

There is a Idler pulley right next to the water pump.......and the power steering pulley, and the alternator pulley.......
My idler pulley was making a groaning noise....only above a certain RPM.....so I could not detect it by spinning it.

All of those pulley's you mentioned have been replaced and the alternator pulley was replaced explicitly as a preventative measure from what I'd heard on the forums while the original alternator is still in there.

I just went and looked in the coolant reservoir tank and there is NOTHING IN THERE. NOT A DROP. HOW COULD THAT MUCH COOLANT DISAPPEAR AND I NOT SEE WHERE IT WENT?

What is this likely to mean?

A couple months ago I verified that the reservoir and overflow tube were NOT leaking. Guess I have to go over the entire coolant system again.

EDIT: IF I'd NEVER used the heater since the engine was installed wouldn't that mean that the heater core and associated hoses/pipes were all empty? Wouldn't it be standard procedure when refilling a completely empty coolant system to turn ON the heater while you are doing it? I'm thinking that if they never turned on the heater then all that missing coolant may have went into the heater core, but the fact that I smell it in and out of the cabin isn't good of course.

Most leaks get worse over time which I think is happening.. If its a spray leak leak then it dries up quick.. I would look around the exhaust for stains or all the hot places were the hoses run around.. I think since its a new engine with the works a hose may be looses because of the break in of new hoses...Also look for where the hose runs into the water pump. Great hiding places for leaks.. Just my 2 cents..

I've been studying the coolant system diagrams and service info again and come up with a few things.

1. I believe the heater core passages were empty since February (engine install) due to not having used the heater at all since then and because the engine was disassembled for replacement twice in the same month. I think the missing coolant (that I don't see in the reservoir now) went into the heater core passages when I turned on the heater a few days ago.

1.a. Scary thought - that when I used the heater to cool the original Engine when it was overheating (October 2007), that some debris in the coolant system got caught in the heater core or related passages and perhaps I reintroduced that debris into the newly refreshed system when I turned on the heater switch a few days ago.

2. If the missing amount of coolant leaked out somewhere I would have noticed it for sure unless it is actually one of those high pressure slow leaks that burn off on the road. Gonna do high RPM testing to see if this is the case too.

3. Smelling coolant inside the cabin and outside the vehicle clues me to believe that it could be a loose hose (as suggested by you guys). I'm willing to bet the hoses were NOT retightened after they got hot the 1st time after installation.

4. I'm gonna pull the van up on ramps and inspect for leaks at the heater core inlet/outlet and anywhere else if I can see it. I'll also check inside the cabin flooring for coolant as well. A lot of other threads for other vehicles have reported wet cabin flooring when the heater core was leaking. Also, I'm going to let it heat up at least 15 minutes and turn it off to listen for hissing sounds. I'll be paying special attention to the rusted spot on top the engine where the water hose meets the thermostat housing.

Crap......loss of coolant is a hole other can of worms.
As far as the heater core, coolant flows through there ALL the time, regardless of the temperature and airflow settings.
The blend door position determines how much air flows over the hot heater core, which controls the temperature.

I would top off the coolant, making SURE that you fill the radiator also (remove radiator cap and make sure.....squeeze the upper radiator hose if the coolant in the radiator is low....to push the air out of it.)
Then closely monitor the coolant level to see if coolant usage continues.....and look for any signs of leakage.

Hopefully there is nothing serious wrong.......remember, you have a waranty in force on the engine, so let the shop know if the coolant loss continues.

External leakage should leave white or green, etc (depending upon coolant type) stains or puddles under the vehicle.

I really am thinking away from an internal engine leakage, but who knows.

Going to try this today/tomorrow before looking for my leak. I thought the official fill/bleed procedure would be worth posting up.

From Service CD:
Filling and Bleeding Procedures:

1. With the engine off, add a 50/50 coolant mixture to the bottom of the filler neck.

2. Wait 5 minutes, as the coolant level in the radiator (8005) will drop. Slowly add more coolant until the coolant level remains at the filler neck.

3. Install the radiator cap to the first notch to keep coolant spillage to a minimum.

4. With the engine off, fill the radiator coolant recovery reservoir (8A080) to the FULL COLD mark with a 50/50 coolant mixture.

5. Add 1 quart of 100% coolant to the radiator coolant recovery reservoir to bring the level above the FULL COLD mark.

6. Start the engine and allow to idle until the upper radiator hose (8260) is warm (about 5 min.). This indicates the water thermostat (8575) is open and coolant is flowing through the entire system.

7. Carefully remove the radiator cap and add coolant to the top of the filler neck with a 50/50 coolant mixture until the coolant level remains stable.

WARNING:
WRAP A THICK CLOTH AROUND THE RADIATOR CAP AND TURN IT SLOWLY TO THE FIRST STOP. STEP BACK WHILE THE PRESSURE IS RELEASED FROM THE COOLING SYSTEM. WHEN CERTAIN ALL THE PRESSURE HAS BEEN RELEASED, PRESS DOWN ON THE RADIATOR CAP (STILL WITH A CLOTH), TURN AND REMOVE.

8. Reinstall the radiator cap securely.

Crap......loss of coolant is a hole other can of worms.
As far as the heater core, coolant flows through there ALL the time, regardless of the temperature and airflow settings.
The blend door position determines how much air flows over the hot heater core, which controls the temperature.

On that howstuffworks link above it shows that the fluid only flows through the core when the heater is turned on. Is it different in our vans than in their animated diagram?

BTW - not sure if this will end up related or not, but to those who've been following along I've restarted my other thread at post #129:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5849490#post5849490

Now if you have a small leak in the heater core but yet cant find it. you can buy a double male end hose connection and bypass the heater core to see if it does not leak.. You may have to drive it around a bit to see if it works. But its a simple test to rule the heater core out.. Just unhook the hoses from the heater core and connect them to the double male hose connection. you are just bypassing the heater core all together..

Now if you have a small leak in the heater core but yet cant find it. you can buy a double male end hose connection and bypass the heater core to see if it does not leak.. You may have to drive it around a bit to see if it works. But its a simple test to rule the heater core out.. Just unhook the hoses from the heater core and connect them to the double male hose connection. you are just bypassing the heater core all together..

You mean like a regular garden hose "double male end" connection?

Does anyone know if the heater core hoses are easily accessed?

well on my 2001 its better to pull the cowl off.. The front hoses connect around the Passenger side firewall area going into the heater core.. The bypass hose connector they sell at most Auto parts stores.Just tell the guy you want to bypass the heater core. Hey I see some use a proper size PVC pipe cut short of course to do this. But Advanced Auto and other parts places all ready have them in a kit with hose clamps.. I think they call them inline hose repair kits. There around 2 to 3 bucks. It may not be an easy option if you have to pull everything off to get to it.. If you can get to it with no trouble then it is an easy way to rule out the heater core.. I will say I have not tried this on a Windstar yet.. But other cars that were hard to locate leaks.

PICTURES AT BOTTOM OF POST.

I do believe that you are getting outside air coming in when you turn to the HEATER; correct?

The reason I ask is because this thought that its the heater core immediately when I use the heater can be kinda misleading. I would like if ya don't mind Wiswind, if you could verify if there is a valve vs constant flow of coolant through the heater core cause my finding today/tonight have me thinking that the heater core section may have had a clog and/or that the gasket material used when putting everything back together was not fully dry yet before the shop put in new coolant.

Things noticed tonight:

1. Thorough Inspection of all coolant/heater hoses everywhere revealed no traces of coolant leaking or spraying. With my hands I followed the hose as far as I could behind the engine and I felt and saw nothing and I would've felt something with left over radiator fluid leakage.

2. Noticed wetness on the A/C lines where they bend near the windshield washer fluid filler spout. I could not for the life of me figure out where in the hell this would be coming from and my A/C works great aside from the long pause and LOUD clunk of the a/c clutch when its first kicked on after sitting more than a day.

After I cleaned the a/c lines off the residue that came off was GREEN. AH HA! Whats that folks? Radiator fluid aka coolant. Baffled at how that could be there I began to think well if this was all pressurized and hot what could spew over to the a/c lines from here. THE VERY LAST THING I WOULD'VE CHECKED CAUSE ITS NEW AS IS THE RADIATOR, THE RADIATOR FILLER CAP. MY BRAND NEW FORD OEM RADIATOR CAP AFTER A CLEAN SYSTEM WAS INSTALLED AND FILLED WAS LEAKING FROM THE BOTTOM MOST POINT AND HEAVILY CORRODED WITH JUNK.

This to me is ODD and makes me think that the heater core was full of gunk and that it didn't come out till now when I used the heater the other day, but Wiswind says the coolant is always going through the heater core regardless in our vans.

So if thats the case then the only thing that was not removed during the engine swap (and I indeed had asked them too) was the external tranny cooler. At the end of it all the tech had told me not to worry about it and that it was probably fine even though I'd read otherwise that after an overheating you must ALWAYS replace the tranny cooler cause they are supposedly impossible to clean out. So maybe some gunk dislodge from there?

OR

Is the gunk I'm seeing on the cap and stuck inbetween its gasket material that they didn't let harden before filling the system when they put the engine back together.

OR

Is this gunk I'm seeing from the overflow container.

I blew in the EMPTY overflow container hose to make sure air came out into the reservoir and it did just like last time, but it makes you wonder why I have a leak at the Radiator CAP and not from the overflow container instead since the radiator cap is new.

I pinched the overflow container hose all the way down it from the radiator and it made a crackling sound the whole way. I dunno if this means its mostly clogged up or if that was just the sound of an old rotten lil hose. I do know that my overflow container is empty and full of debris and the only things it could've come from are the heater core, tranny coolor, and perhaps the tranny itself and associated passages (unless I'm missing other stuff; I do have rear air too; dunno if that means i have rear heat stuff).

Lastly, I am wondering if the new FORD OEM RAD CAP IS NOT FITTING WELL on the Ready-Rad radiator I bought from Advance Auto. The manufacturers site for that radiator is here:
http://www.pliii.com/catalog?searcher%5Byear%5D=1995&searcher%5Bmake%5D=FORD&searcher%5Bmodel%5D=WINDSTAR&searcher%5Bengines%5D=1141614&searcher%5Bpart_type%5D=Radiator&search_vehicles=SEARCH

It seems to me like a snug fit, but why'd it leak out the bottom?

Action Plan
I did not have a chance to refill the system tonight, but will later or tomorrow. I'm gonna clean up the Radiator cap well, remove the reservoir and clean it well, clean and/or replace the overflow reservoir hose, then do the fill/bleed/burp procedure and watch it for a while and see what happens. I'm gonna run the heater too while I'm taking care of business and check for leaks in the cabin, but I doubt I'll see anything in there.

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/VanCoolantLeakRadCapSpout-0003.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/VanCoolantLeakRadCapSpout-0004.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/VanCoolantLeakRadCapSpout-0006.JPG
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/VanCoolantLeakRadCapSpout-0009.JPG

2 Indirect nuisances may be resolved by fixing this leak.

Belt squeaking and the a/c clutch engaging very abruptly and late after van has been sitting for more than a day. I can hope.

searcherrr

I know that heater core hose tubes can crack if too much force is used in removing or installing hoses. I would used a cooling system psi tester. Most auto parts stores will rent them. This will also you to pressurize the system let it set and check for leakdown. During this you can check for leaks without the engine being hot.

Regards

Dan

searcherrr

I know that heater core hose tubes can crack if too much force is used in removing or installing hoses. I would used a cooling system psi tester. Most auto parts stores will rent them. This will also you to pressurize the system let it set and check for leakdown. During this you can check for leaks without the engine being hot.

Regards

Dan
Damn, they rent everything cool like that huh? I would've never thought I could rent a cooling system pressure tester, let alone thought of one existing. I'm pretty sure though it is the radiator cap and/or reservoir related. Its funny (but not too lol) because the reservoir and reservoir tube are like 2 of 3 things in the entire cooling system that haven't been replaced.

I'm gonna do my fill/bleed of the system after I clean out the overflow jug, overflow hose and radiator cap and see if it holds pressure and if not I'll go rent that thingy yer talking about. I think actually what happened here is the radiator cap reacted as it is supposed to..... in the even of too much pressure/heat its supposed to release fluid/pressure right? Doesn't the fact that it came out of the cap rather than the reservoir tell us anything.... like that maybe the reservoir passage was clogged?

On the windstar, the coolant does NOT have a valve in the heater loop....coolant always flows through the heater core.
The temperature adjust causes the blend door to move.
The diagram that you saw on "how stuff works" is how things used to be on older cars.
I think that they found that having the coolant sitting in the heater core all summer, not flowing, caused clogging problems.

The idea of renting a pressure test unit sound very good.
You can pressurize the system.....and the coolant will not be so hot when it comes out....so it will not evaporate right up.
Of course there is the chance that the issue is temperature dependant....but this is still well worth the try.

searcherrr

The rear Aux. heater does have a coolant flow valve. Wiswind's windstar doesn't have rear Aux. heat so he wouldn't be famular with this. Check your rear Aux heater.

Regards

Dan

Aaaaaahhhhhhh yer both kinda right. I looked a little closer in my FORD service manual program in the "climate control" section and Windstar's with AUX air have an additional heater core, evaporator core, and vaccum valve for controlling duct flaps. OUCH for maintenance price tag, but I bet those additional items may go 300k miles or more before needing service cause of limited use in the rear.

I remember now seeing two coolant lines going underneath the firewall (underneath or through; can't recall) and wondered what they were for so that answers that.

I looked harder though and there is no mention of a valve for the AUX AIR, just a duct flap like Wiswind says, that lets air come on back there. There's also no mention of a valve to on/off flow in the "engine cooling" section either.

I wish I would've thought of this back during when my engine overheated, but using the PRIMARY and AUX heater selections would've probably helped a lot to cool the engine down.

In any case I worked on the leak today. I removed and thoroughly cleaned out the overflow reservoir and connected tube. Before doing all this, the reservoir was bone dry except for a very slight puddle at the bottom of it and the radiator was FULL at the base of the filler neck.

Thinking coolant was low in the system elsewhere besides the reservoir I followed procedures to fill the reservoir to the FULL COLD line and then added a quart of straight coolant. It did not change level in either direction as it got to full hot, so the reservoir is overfilled now and i'll have to drain/siphon it later. I carefully opened the radiator cap when it was fully hot and rad fans were on and the fluid was still at the top level at the base of the filler neck.

I guess this means that maybe the blockage to the reservoir was uni-directional. IE: Towards the radiator it worked, but going back to the reservoir it didn't causing it to exit at the rad cap. When I was flushing the reservoir I noticed the water didn't come out easily till I cleared the gunk so maybe that is all it was. We'll see.

Test for 20 minutes while revving. No leaks anywhere. Then I drove it around town about 10 miles with a blue shop rag taped around the base of the rad cap cause now I know for sure my squeaky belt from day 1 has been because of this. Checked the rag while out and at home and no drip drops. YAY!

Will the radiator fans always run when the A/C CLUTCH is engaged?
OR
Will the radiator fans always run when the A/C SWITCH is engaged?

So pending driving on a > 5 mile trip looks like "for now" the leak is solved, but I'm not gonna believe this issue is completely done with.

Though if by some miracle this is resolved this easily FOR ONCE the moral of the story is that this wasn't on the surface what I read it probably was everywhere on the net (the heater core). The fact that I smelled radiator fluid when I used the heater the other day was simply because the vents were bringing in outside air while the leak was happening at the rad cap.

No leaks yet.