93 Pontiac Sunbird died and wont start
LameBMX
03-24-2008, 11:00 AM
1993 pontiac sunbird
2 liter 4 cyl.
had previously been running rough on occaision, running it at 70 on the eway for 5-10 minutes would clear this up.
i was doing 80 for about 5 minutes on the turnpike when she cut out .. would not even attempt to sputter. turned over normally. on side of turnpike determined i had spark at a cylinder and hear fuel pump running. so i towed it home and did some research.
been a long time since ive worked on cars but i started to look at it. determined i was gettin spark from both coils (2 and 4 tested) plus it makes no sputter what so ever which would imply both coils failed at once.
unfortunately i dont have the fuel rail pressure relief valve to test fuel pressure, but when i removed the fuel pressure regulator and turned the key i got a steady stream of fuel coming out of the rail. while not precise it appeared more than enough to support the engine running.
a mechanic friend mentioned checking the timing. i pried back the top of the timing belt cover and confirmed the timing best still existed and turned with the engine being cranked.
i tried an old trick and placed a fresh clean paper towel over a sparkplug hole without the plug in it and turned it over. normally a vehicle will push out enough fuel to notice some dampness and of couse smell. the towel got neither on it. another friends mentioned trying starting fluid. after kicking myself in the butt a few times for forgetting that one i picked some up. car will run on starting fluid.
at this point it appears the injectors are not firing. injectors have 12v on them as they should to function. TPS is .8v to 5v with a smooth rise following accelerator depression. CPS crank position sensor had 490ohms on the windings and please bear with me i can retest of anyone asks but its really cold out there.
cps output was either
.5v dc meaning approximately 0v off and 1v on
or it was
1v dc meaning approximately 0v off and 2v on
and i forget its input voltage.
with tps ruled out and cps vaguely ruled out i replaced the ECM.
still no change. i double check and am getting power to the ecm (actual voltage at the fuse was 6v and the battery is too dead to even click when trying to turn over so that seems appropiately) resistance is approx 1.5 ohms from protected side of fuse to power pin on ECM. i could not find a schamatic so if the ECM has another pin for power its not getting any juice.
im thinking about getting a new CPS but im out of ideas especially if that dont work.
any additional help in getting it running would be appreciated!!!!
2 liter 4 cyl.
had previously been running rough on occaision, running it at 70 on the eway for 5-10 minutes would clear this up.
i was doing 80 for about 5 minutes on the turnpike when she cut out .. would not even attempt to sputter. turned over normally. on side of turnpike determined i had spark at a cylinder and hear fuel pump running. so i towed it home and did some research.
been a long time since ive worked on cars but i started to look at it. determined i was gettin spark from both coils (2 and 4 tested) plus it makes no sputter what so ever which would imply both coils failed at once.
unfortunately i dont have the fuel rail pressure relief valve to test fuel pressure, but when i removed the fuel pressure regulator and turned the key i got a steady stream of fuel coming out of the rail. while not precise it appeared more than enough to support the engine running.
a mechanic friend mentioned checking the timing. i pried back the top of the timing belt cover and confirmed the timing best still existed and turned with the engine being cranked.
i tried an old trick and placed a fresh clean paper towel over a sparkplug hole without the plug in it and turned it over. normally a vehicle will push out enough fuel to notice some dampness and of couse smell. the towel got neither on it. another friends mentioned trying starting fluid. after kicking myself in the butt a few times for forgetting that one i picked some up. car will run on starting fluid.
at this point it appears the injectors are not firing. injectors have 12v on them as they should to function. TPS is .8v to 5v with a smooth rise following accelerator depression. CPS crank position sensor had 490ohms on the windings and please bear with me i can retest of anyone asks but its really cold out there.
cps output was either
.5v dc meaning approximately 0v off and 1v on
or it was
1v dc meaning approximately 0v off and 2v on
and i forget its input voltage.
with tps ruled out and cps vaguely ruled out i replaced the ECM.
still no change. i double check and am getting power to the ecm (actual voltage at the fuse was 6v and the battery is too dead to even click when trying to turn over so that seems appropiately) resistance is approx 1.5 ohms from protected side of fuse to power pin on ECM. i could not find a schamatic so if the ECM has another pin for power its not getting any juice.
im thinking about getting a new CPS but im out of ideas especially if that dont work.
any additional help in getting it running would be appreciated!!!!
LameBMX
03-28-2008, 11:43 AM
bump and I have replaced the crank position sensor and still turns over fine but makes no attempt to start.
any helpers please?
any helpers please?
brcidd
03-28-2008, 12:28 PM
better get a fuel pressure gage on it- takes exactly the right amount of pressure to enable the pressure regulator- if it runs on starting fluid- then you have a fuel delivery problem- not a spark problem....tell us th efuel pressure- borrow the gage from Autozone's loan a tool program
LameBMX
03-28-2008, 01:07 PM
That was one of the things I tried first.
Autozone dont have a loan a tool for it.
It does not have a schreader valve to test with, the other tester they carry intercepts the fuel line, but is not sized right to use on input side, and the fuel pressure regulator is o-ring sealed and held into the fuel rail with a compression ring setup very similar to the setup that hold distributor shafts down.
If you can point me to a part number or such that would be greatly appreciated.
Autozone dont have a loan a tool for it.
It does not have a schreader valve to test with, the other tester they carry intercepts the fuel line, but is not sized right to use on input side, and the fuel pressure regulator is o-ring sealed and held into the fuel rail with a compression ring setup very similar to the setup that hold distributor shafts down.
If you can point me to a part number or such that would be greatly appreciated.
LameBMX
03-28-2008, 01:40 PM
Nothing at advanced either.
LameBMX
03-29-2008, 05:10 PM
i was inspecting the wiring for the injectors and the wires where the injectors plugged into the main harness appeared to have gotten pinched in the motor mount. I fixed this. there was no change. vehicle still would not run.
a friend managed to get it to start and run for about 10 minutes. he kept turning the key until the fuel pump had kicked on a few times and it would start. odd thing was it ran good while it was running. i could actuate the throttle and let it sit there getting kicked down by the rev limiter. let off throttle and the hit it again and it didnt sputter. then it died again.
i went with most logical approach and replaced fuel pump, strainer and filter. it still wont start properly.
last up is the fuel pressure regulator. should be at the store in the AM and will post back if that solves the issue. if i cant save the $300 I got in it now, maybe it will help someone else.
btw some injector information ( date voltages )
engine off key on
main power - 11.86v
blue 11.86v
green 11.86v (looking all normal)
engine cranking (note i am assuming a longer starting phase + coil field collapse is causing a high reading .. will post when vehicle is running the test voltages again)
main power 11.86v
blue 9.56v
green 9.56v
i could and will do phase (dwell) if someone requests, though generally found measurements are in ms where as dwell is degrees. stupid old school based equipment. plus as long as someone has a decent multimeter dc volts will measure the same if the phase is the same. average of full voltage when not firing and a very low voltage when firing.
a friend managed to get it to start and run for about 10 minutes. he kept turning the key until the fuel pump had kicked on a few times and it would start. odd thing was it ran good while it was running. i could actuate the throttle and let it sit there getting kicked down by the rev limiter. let off throttle and the hit it again and it didnt sputter. then it died again.
i went with most logical approach and replaced fuel pump, strainer and filter. it still wont start properly.
last up is the fuel pressure regulator. should be at the store in the AM and will post back if that solves the issue. if i cant save the $300 I got in it now, maybe it will help someone else.
btw some injector information ( date voltages )
engine off key on
main power - 11.86v
blue 11.86v
green 11.86v (looking all normal)
engine cranking (note i am assuming a longer starting phase + coil field collapse is causing a high reading .. will post when vehicle is running the test voltages again)
main power 11.86v
blue 9.56v
green 9.56v
i could and will do phase (dwell) if someone requests, though generally found measurements are in ms where as dwell is degrees. stupid old school based equipment. plus as long as someone has a decent multimeter dc volts will measure the same if the phase is the same. average of full voltage when not firing and a very low voltage when firing.
LameBMX
03-30-2008, 12:02 PM
Well new fuel pressure regulator did not fix issue.
after replacement it kind of tried to start again. didnt really run well.
new fuel pump, strainer, filter, and pressure regulator.
still acts as though its not getting any gas at all.
any more ideas
after replacement it kind of tried to start again. didnt really run well.
new fuel pump, strainer, filter, and pressure regulator.
still acts as though its not getting any gas at all.
any more ideas
LameBMX
03-30-2008, 12:42 PM
well i went back to the basics and am now not getting any spark. nice.
im getting this feeling it just broke down again before it got fixed the first time lol
im getting this feeling it just broke down again before it got fixed the first time lol
LameBMX
04-02-2008, 04:19 AM
okay she runs, after all the research i hate gm even more now, 2 lines for the dis are untterly mislabeled by all the manuals I could find, their ignition module is nothing more than a couple transistors to switch the primary's, nothing like what gm has the lines labelled as. I do have a minor vacuum leak on the fuel pressure regulator, it runs and drives though a bit sluggish. all said and done though turns out the ECM I purchased was fried on the ignition control side. what appears to have happened is as I was driving the wiring at the ckp (crank shaft position) sensor got pinched by an engine mount. I tested and got spark. I tested fuel and timing by having the car run fine off of starting fluid. I could not test fuel pressure, but was able to check and determine my injectors were not getting actuated. I believe this fired the injector controls on the first ECM. My Injectors were not getting actuated. I replaced the ECM, still no change (though this new ECM had dead ignition output). I replaced the ckp then found the broken wiring and fixed that. This is the point in time it would run for a short time if I kept turning the key to get the fuel pump to prime a few times and build up pressure before actually starting the car. Fuel injectors were being actuated. Replaced fuel pump strainer and filter. still no change. I replaced the fuel pressure regulator. still no change. Knowing I had eliminated the fuel issue for certain (i hoped) i began troubleshooting all over again, it really felt like my car broke down in a different way while being worked on. checked for fuel, I was getting fuel. I checked for spark and now it was not getting spark. i tested the ignition module and ruled out the dis system. after figuring out the ignition module i knew from previous testing that my ECM was not triggering the ignition module. I warranty replaced the ecm and she ran.
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