Sienna 2000 - horn works only when car is not moving

I have a strange problem with my Sienna 2000 with 123k miles.

The horn works fine when car is in "Park" with engine running or stopped. It works also when car is in running at < 5-10 miles / hour. But it stops working when the car is moving at higher speed.

The pattern is very consistent. The Van has no problems otherwise and drives very smooth with no vibration etc.

I will appreciate any suggestion to resolve this issue.

My Sienna 1999 has similar issue. Have you figured out how to fix the problem?

Not yet.

I fixed the 2003 horn by tripping the alarm using the panic button. The horn work now. Don't know why tripping the alarm fixed it.

I assume you are refering to a factory alarm system, i.e., that has a panic button, and that uses the car's horn to sound an alarm? Also, did you have the same symptoms as the beharibabu did (and I do) that the horn stopped working at higher speeds (although for me it is merely intermittent)?

Do you think an after-market alarm system could casue the same problem, too? After 8 years of not causing any problems, and given that this alarm system does not use the horn, but has its own siren?

Thanks much
DA

Biharibabu,

Did you ever solve your problem? Does the horn work sometimes at high speeds but sometimes not? That's what mine does.

Thanks
DA

I'm contacted Toyota Nation and Local to no avail. I checked the wiring diagrams, the for the steer wheel switch, the horn circuit doesn't use the computer. The horn uses the computer only for the alarm. I have concluded that the alarm activation to fix the horn was just coinicidence in my case. I've tested the relay common relay and it is working. So the problem is likely in the steering column / steering coil wire. I've tested the coil wire (which is expensive and a common problem). It's not the coil. The center shaft seems to be losing ground, I've couldn't get a straight answer from Toyota on how the shaft is ground. Looks like it might be by the C ring and washer on the upper portion of the steering shaft. Not very robust, but would explain why the horn comes and goes.

It looks like I have, at long last, solved the problem on my 2000 Sienna. Apparently, the intermittent horn was due to a grounding problem, as others here have described. An automotive electrician ended up running a wire from the ground wire of the spiral cable that goes to the cruise control system directly to the steering column shaft and that fixed it. He said the shaft ground was interimittent and suggested something about the tilt mechanism, although I may have misunderstood the tilt comment. He said it was a bad design to have the grounding set up the way it was, just as Dave has suggested.

Unfortunately, before doing that, he convinced himself (and still remains convinced) that the spiral cable was bad and first replaced that. When the interimittency returned, he assured me that the sprial cable was bad in addition to something else, the something else being the grounding problem he later found. I think he is convinced that the spiral cable was bad (I could not fully understand the tests he ran to convince himself of that), not just becasue, if it wasn't, he would have had to eat the expensive cost of the part. Between the visit to diagnose, then the second visit after the special order spiral cable came in, plus the 3rd visit to fix the ground, they must have spent 8 hrs labor, for which they could only charge me their original $140. Aftre he fixed the ground, he just did not want to try it with the old spiral cable, since the problem had been interimittent, and I was just happy that they were finally done, having watched them for 6 of the 8 hours. So, all in all, I'm not unhappy with the result.

Anyway, I thought I should add my voice to the chorus of grounding problems in these Sienna models, and perhaps other Toyotas. It seems that the problems started after the vehicle had been driven 90k miles and was initially temperature and vibration related, later only vibration related. Ultimately, with the steering pad disassembled, he could reproduce it by minute movements of the steering wheel.

How can you not be happy with the end result? It is fixed right? You said yourself that you where only charged a minute fraction of what you could have been charged for the time they put into the vehicle? Not everything is yes or no, black and white, or has one easy solution. Intermittant problems are not easy or always possible to figure out. Once you find a problem your so happy that there is something to start with you go with it. Why would he keep checking for another problem if he is confident his results prove the part is bad?

I'm not defending or saying anybody is right or wrong but you had a difficult situation to figure out and whether or not anything was broke or bad the end result is you still received a heck of a deal on a diagnosis and repair.

I don't know what axe you have to grind - perhaps you are a great mechanic who is asked to deal with tough, intermittent problems often - but I think your attack is excessive. Though I, arguably, got a deal on the extended labor, it was possibly extended only becasue the electrician initially misdiagnosed the problem as being due to the spiral cable. If he did, two of my three trips there were unnecessary. He replaced that special ordered part and sent me on my way, and that was after I had to return a 2nd time for the specially ordered part. After the replacement, if he had taken 10 minutes to road test it, he would have almost surely have seen the interimittency recur, as we did within 5 minutes when we drove home. The shop had closed for the day and so we could not immediately take it back, requiring another, i.e., 3rd trip.

I may well have paid $250 for a part that didn't need to be replaced. I will never know, but it seems like a heck of a coincidence that the new part solved nothing (creating the EXACT same symptoms as before)whereas the grounding fix solved everything.

Also, this shop was 20 miles away in a crappy part of town where I had to spend many hours, stuff I didn't feel was necessary to mention, lest I seem like an elitest. Twice during the three trips, I noticed that the electrician was looking at a wiring diagram from the wrong car, so he was a little disorganized - to be kind. Also, the main point of my post was to talk about the grounding problem.

I thought my e-mail suggested I was somewhat sympathetic to the difficulty of solving interimittent problems, in this case one that my independent Toyota shop would not even tackle. I said I was "not unhappy". Apparently, that was not good enough for you. Sorry.

In any event, the point of my post was not really to complain but to add further chorus to the issue with steering wheel grounding problems on Siennas, so I hope we can let this rest.

I wish you peace in your life!

D

I'm sorry you interpreted that as an attack?

I appreciate the response. I may have over-reacted. There is a lot behind the scenes, times when I thought they had taken my car more apart than they should have needed to, and would not get it back together. Times when i felt that, if I didn't watch their every move, they would read the wrong wiring diagram, etc, etc.

Not to mention the 6 months waiting for the problem to get less intermittent and mechanics refusing to work on it or telling me they would charge me even if they could not find it.

Not to mention a wife who lost confidence in the car, while the horn remained broken, and decided she needed a new one!

I wish he had been willing to put the old spiral cable back for a test but he wasn't and I was too drained to push it. So, I'll never know!

Yes, the car is fixed and I am relieved.

Take care.

Actually, I'm not sure this is a proper forum for this, but I'm sure someone will edit it out if it's not:

On both this problem and another problem with my Toyota (which I 90% fixed myself with his help), my frustration was noticably lessened by a wonderful, Toyota master tech who goes by SkyVisions on Justanswer.com. If you have a Toyota problem, he will be a wonderful resource for you. This is not an endorsement of justanswer.com overall, just this one guy there in the automotive forum, Ask for him and accept only him. Some of you folks may be so expert that you don't need it but, if you need some help with a Toyota, he is the man! He provided lots of guidance that helped the aforementioned local automotive electrician (not a Toyota specialist) rule out many issues that could have distracted him from solving the problem.

I wish he had been willing to put the old spiral cable back for a test but he wasn't and I was too drained to push it. So, I'll never know!

What how exactly did he fix the bad grounding on the shaft? Is there a brush on the shaft or only the C-ring to the tilt plate?

Do you still have the spiral coil?

Dave

How is the ground mad to the tilting plate and from the staft to tilting housing or other ground?

I don't understand your question Dave, and I don't think I will if you clarify it either. I will repeat what I posted earlier, that he inserted a wire which he spliced into the ground wire of the cruise control part of the spiral cable to somewhere right on the metal steering column shaft. I don't know that I can give you any more detail than that, because I glimpsed it from a distance. It seems to have solved the problem which definitely seems to have been an interimittent ground, which would seem to make sense to a layman for an intermittent horn. I recall there was some sort of a little metal screw going perpendicularly into the steering wheel shaft plate and that he just soldered a tiny metal circle to the other end of his new wire and then backed the screw out, and put the end of his new wire on and screwed it back down. I guess that he was making sure the steering shart woud be grounded by tying it into a ground wire in the spiral cable. But perhaps it is the other way around and I am confused. Sorry.

Here is what I said earlier in my post before I got off track about whether or not the spiral cable also needed to be replaced. That repalcement alone did not solve the problem one iota. After the grounding fix, all was fixed.

An automotive electrician ended up running a wire from the ground wire of the spiral cable that goes to the cruise control system directly to the steering column shaft and that fixed it. He said the shaft ground was interimittent and suggested something about the tilt mechanism, although I may have misunderstood the tilt comment. He said it was a bad design to have the grounding set up the way it was, just as Dave has suggested.

HTH,
Dean

Hi Dean,
Was the grounding wire attached between with upper spiral cable connector that goes to the cruise control switches on the steer wheel and the other end of the wire to the steering wheel plate?

So the actual spiral cable was left on the steer upper housing and the steering wheel and steering pad (air bag/horn pad) were removed? The ground jumper wire is from the spiral cable connector on the steering wheel to the steering wheel plate (Yes/No)?

I also though about doing that, but if the spiral cable ground wire breaks and the horn is used, voltage would go to the cruise control computer and radio control computer. I don't know how the two computers would react, might burn out, go haywire or nothing? Since Toyota dealer did it on your car, you might have recourse if any thing goes wrong.

Do you have the old spiral cable?

About the Sienna horn working randomly (sometimes while moving,sometimes parked,sometimes not at all etc).
As several people mention before,is due to a faulty ground. It seems that the ground for the horn comes through the steering column.
Dirt built up and dried out grease in the joints,or rust; or a combination of all creates a a scenario where the ground for the horn in faulty.

WHAT SOLVED MY PROBLEM !!!

after reading most of the postings here I concluded that cleaning the steering shaft joints should solve the problem.
There is a joint right below the dashboard.(move the driver seat back as far as you can get under there and with a rag and a can of WD-40 clean that joint by spraying and wiping as good as possible.(be generous with the WD-40).
Also there is a bearing assembly at the floor(firewall). Spray enough WD-40 there too.
The steering column has three positions for the steering wheel,adjustable by the lever on the left side of the steering wheel.
I drove the Sienna right after using the the WD-40. changing the steering wheel position several times and using the horn many times to restore the ground contact that I just cleaned with WD-40(Remember the electricity flows through the joints we just cleaned).
At the first few tries the horn started working more often than not and after a few minutes of changing the steering wheel position and honking the horn worked all the time !!!.
All You need is WD-40 and a RAG.(Maybe some other contact cleaners,degreasers may work).I had WD-40 handy and it worked.!!!

Good luck to You all. June 2010

Thanks for the update.
The local Toyota dealer's service rep and head mech. initally said that ground by the computer ground was so dangerous. About one month later the service rep said that he spoke the one of the experts and that how he does it (not the air bag ground). They also replaced the entire steering shaft, but that was too expensive.

The WD40 sound alot easier and cheaper. Do you have any degrease/contact cleaner that does not stick or leave a bad smell?

dave

I have exactly the same problem. After long and painful trouble shooting, this is what I learned.

1) The steering column of my car had a loose grounding; I confirmed this by measuring the resistance from the steering column to the chasse. It should be very low resistance.
2) I believe the ball-bearing (on the steering column) right underneath the spiral cable is the grounding point for the steering column. What I found was that the grease for the bearing was dried out and formed a coating (became an insulator) around the metal ball that broke the grounding. That explains why the horn had more problems on days that were hot and low-humidity (typical in southern California).
3) To fix the problem, I simply removed the steering wheel (there is a good web-site for instructions: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=697181 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=697181)). The bearing was right underneath the spiral cable. I used a syringe & long needle to apply the white lithium grease and solved the problem. Electrically conductive bearing grease (hard to get and expensive) may do better job, but I do not think it is necessary.
4) Be very careful when put the steering wheel back together. If not done properly, you could damage the spiral cable. You can always ask your mechanics to do this for you. It may cost you one-hour labor. At least, you do not have to end up with paying for the expensive spiral cable or steering column for nothing.

All,

Thanks for your inputs... with your help, I was able to fix what I believe to be the same problem. A few of my experiences may be helpful...

I too had an intermittent problem... the operation of the horn was clearly influenced by slight movement of the steering wheel. I wondered if I too had a grounding problem... and if that grounding problem involved the electrical path through the steering column.

In an attempt to verify this, after removing the airbag/steering wheel "cover" by loosening the 2 screws on either side of the steering wheel column, I ran a long jumper wire from the "metal face plate" under the airbag (before the airbag was removed) to ground. There are 2 screws that hold a "bracket" that sits above what I believe is the "clock spring connector". Loosening one of these screws provided a convenient point to attach my jumper. I attached the other end of the jumper to ground by loosening one of the bolts that holds the accelerator pedal to the fire wall. Sure enough, with this connection via jumper in place, the horn worked consistently, regardless of the steering wheel position.

So, believing the inputs from your discussion, I set out to determine WHERE in the steering column, the "intermittant" ground problem was coming from. I drove myself nuts trying to figure this out! I also tried bigfatton's solution of cleaning the U-joint and bearing assemblies with WD40 and a rag. No luck! I began to wonder if the steering column really is the grounding path for the horn. (My cruise control works and it's on the steering wheel... so it's got to be properly grounded!)

Ultimately, I went back to Dean's comment: "An automotive electrician ended up running a wire from the ground wire of the spiral cable that goes to the cruise control system directly to the steering column shaft and that fixed it." I started thinking... if the cruise control works, it must be properly grounded. Perhaps all this electrician did was piggy back the horn grounding path on top of the cruise control grounding path.

Unfortunately, I had no way to determine WHICH wire that went from the cruise control "switch" to the "clock spring connector. Being a novice, I was extremely reluctant to start cutting wires so that I could add a jumper. But, with trial and error, I was able to determine that the white wire WITH A BLACK STRIPE was the ground wire. I simply forced my jumper wire into the back of that connector and connected the other end to the metal face plate as described above, and PRESTO, my horn works.

Now, it completely baffles me why Toyota would provide a wire grounding path for the cruise control but choose to rely on the steering column to ground the horn. Perhaps there's a reason that'll someday become apparent when something stops working for me (or Dean)

And, I know that the connection that I made by stuffing my jumper wire into the back of that connector is marginal at best. But, for the time being, my wife is happy (and no longer harrassing me to fix the horn!) I figure if the connection lasts a while, I'll just "re-make" that connection every so often as needed. And if it doesn't last a while, I guess I'll get brave, cut that wire, and connect both ends and my jumper with a wire nut. Hell, the minivan has 175K miles on it... how wrong can I go?

I hope this helps. Once again, I know that I couldn't have gotten my horn to work (and my wife off of my back!) without your help! Thanks for posting!

Here's what solved my intermittnet horn issue on my 2000 Toyota Sienna:

I removed the air bag, the steering wheel, the clock spring and the multi-switch (it operates the cruise control and the windshield wipers). It was quite a process. Underneath all of that is a ring of ball bearings - they were badly rusted and dirty. I sprayed a solvent on them until they were shining clean. Carb cleaner will do. Then I sprayed on WD-40 to lubricate and to inhibit future rust.

The horn works now.

That ring of ball bearings is essential to maintaining proper ground, which is essential to the working of electrical components - but you must remove many things to get to them.

That was the solution to MY problem. Other problems could be fuses, relays, wiring, or (rarely) the clock spring.

Good luck.

This forum has been VERY helpful to me. Thanks to everyone for your posts.

Using your hints, I made the repair this weekend and took some pictures so finding the bearings would be easier for the next person. See this link: http://dr-fix-it.blogspot.com/2011/07/weekend-mechanic-repairing-2000-toyota.html

These are step by step instructions for what I did to restore the ground. Finding the bearings was my biggest challenge, but within an hour I had the repair made.

Thanks again for all the helpful hints!
-WM

To Weekend_Mechanic,

Nice photos. A picture really does say a thousand words.

You must be an electrical engineer because you went about this with a multimeter. I myself am a mechanical engineer - I just started removing components (from the steering wheel inward) until I reached the "legendary" bearings, which I had heard stories of but had never actually seen pictured in any way. So, when I lifted out the multi-switch, under which they are hidden, I yelled "Eureka"!

This seems to solve the problem that is not otherwise solvable. My conclusion: We need better repair manuals.

Art in LA,
Thanks for the compliments! However, I'm not an engineer, although I aspired to be one early in life and still have some "engineering" tendencies that are much closer to a "technician" level than engineer. Actually, I'm a teacher who likes to share his experiences with other like-minded frugal shade tree mechanics.

I agree with you: We need better manuals....and Toyota should use better grease (or a better design for grounding the steering wheel). This van has been GREAT for us, ther eare just two headaches I have found: getting to the spark plugs and this silly horn design, both of which still make me wonder, "Who are these people that design automobiles."

Enjoy sunny CA!
-WM

To Weekend_Mechanic,

I have a 2000 Sienna, which I bought new, and the horn problem slowly developed over the last few years. Like everyone else, I knew the actual horn was ok because it worked with the key fob panic button. I could also make the horn work - just barely - if the steering wheel was in a certain position. Thank goodness I found your web page, as the instructions worked perfectly for me. I managed to get all the trim pieces loose, most of them didn’t need to be taken all the way off - especially the kick plate cover as it has electrical wire bundles inside. Using your great instructions and pictures, it is easy to find the bearing assembly when the steering column trim is out of the way. To clean the bearing I used WD-40 (with the long straw stuck in the nozzle) and gave the bearing a couple ½ second blasts of WD-40, while keeping in mind to spray away from any electronics. I then repeated the WD-40 blasts a few minutes later. I had checked the resistance, as pointed out on your web page, and the resistance went from infinity before the WD-40, all the way to zero after a total of 2 seconds worth of WD-40 (One thing I did differently is that I did not rotate the steering wheel while cleaning, because turning the steering wheel with the engine off caused the power steering pump seals to leak on a Ford Taurus I used to own). I let the WD-40 dry out of the Sienna bearing for about 30 minutes, then put all the trim pieces back on, then I hooked up the battery, and I have been a happy honker ever since. THANK YOU for the perfect solution to the problem.

Ernie,
I'm glad to know the instructions helped and that you're now honking again! My wife was actually disappointed that I repaired our horn because she knew I would use it more! haha!
These discussion threads are a BLESSING! I used one found on another site (via goo gle) to repair my door locks this weekend. I encourage everyone to take a few minutes to post your solutions online so the rest of us can benefit. Ernie, you mentioned not turning the steering wheel while the engine is not running--I would have never guessed that could cause damage to a vehicle...thanks for sharing!!
-wm

I find it hard to believe that others have not posted about this problem in other forums. The design of the steering column in the Sienna is not unique to this vehicle. I have never seen this problem outside of this topic.

Horn works great. Ground short issue as reported above! Coil spring typically not the issue because nothing to wear out. I took mine apart after I didn't set the play and my wife drove off, forcing the steering, snapping the ribbon.
As explained by good people above it's the ground. Here's my additional information that I hope can be helpful.

I had two or three mechanics look at it but I ended fixing it myself at no cost but time. The clock spring is unlikely the culprit as it is housed and there is not much too it to wear out since it's a ribbon (as in computer) at a high cost of $300.
The ground circuit is broken by dirt and grime by now. Unfortunately you have to remove the airbag and steering wheel. 1). Dive the car straight and park to set the steering true straight. 2). remove the Red positive cable from the battery. 3). Loosen throughly the two Torx screws that hold the airbag in place. If you have radio controls, remove that first. Tip: If it doesn't loosen, apply outward pressure to the assembly so the screw will take and unscrew. The airbags has horizontal clips, so, jiggle side to side and lift one side up and it should remove. Unhook the cable. 4). Unhook all cabling and remove the steering wheel. I use a liquid wrench type lube and looened the nut and jiggled the wheel off without a puller. The nut keeps it from hitting you. 5). Remove coil spring. 6). Remove the clamshell housing (couple/few screws). 7). Place newspapers on the floor and under the steering and spray the heck out of the bearings as well as the u-joint towards the floor with carb cleaner, then WD-40. I used an entire can of carb cleaner just to make sure. 8). Put it back together but before screwing in the clock spring, make sure you wind it till it stops then back off 2.5 turns so there is play for wind and unwind as the steering is about 4 turns total. I actually didn't do this (thinking I didn't move it) as I mentioned. So actually, it cost me $300 to replace the clockspring that was perfectly fine. I took it apart and attempted to re solder but the horn kept going off by itself, and there is the danger of the airbag going off too. Not worth it.
My steering wheel was never centered right, so I kept driving around the block without the airbag, and readjusted. http://staticaf.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon7.gif

pkuroda,
I'm glad to hear that you repaired your horn, but sad that it cost $300--yikes! I wish mechanics would read these threads :-) Doing so might reduce the number of clock springs sold.

For future readers of this post: In my case I was able to lube the steering bearings without dissembling the steering wheel or removing the air bag. I have never tinkered with an air bag and prefer to avoid it if possible.

Cheers!
-wm