1978 firebird formula??

hey there are two cars, bot 78...one is formula with a 400/400..for 5800 obo. a lil rust here and there, but pretty nice. silver with red interior, 120k mi, and snowflake wheels. its decent, or should i get built up camaro z28. not sure if its real z, but it looks like it is. has built 383/400. either way i get a great tranny but the second has only 69k mi..may be 169k. it is built for strip tho. needs seatbelts and normal exhaust system. this car is for 2250. which one would you buy??

As a true "Pontiac bigot", of course I would recommend the Firebird, but... The '78 Z is a decent place to start, too. If the Firebird is 100% intact, and only needs minor resto, it's the better deal. The Camaro is going to need more than what's listed. My experience has always been that a seller with a modified vehicle, often either doesn't KNOW what it needs, or will not provide a "full disclosure" of problems.

Look at the Camaro. If it looks like the people that made the changes were consciensious (attention to detail, no billy-bobbin') and installed the appropriate safety equipment (cage, fire extinguisher, harness, etc.) to go along with the go-fast goodies, it could be a good deal. If it looks like a hack job, avoid it. Also, if it HAS been extensively modified (the chassis and body, not the power train), resale value suffers drastically as a "collector car". The late '70s Z/28s aren't exactly worthless.

The Firebird will have good resale value down the road. TransAms are getting "used up", so, like LeMans and Tempest (GTOs are either gone or EXTREMELY expensive), Formula will float upwards as Pontiac people look for new meat. The Pontiac will also show more performance potential in street trim than the small block Camaro (big block cars are a whole different animal, and animals they are!). Tuning a small block for 500-plus streetable horsepower is easy enough, but the price is high. The BBC and Pontiac both offer much better low-speed power potential, a key ingredient for a drivable "heavy" performance car. These cars are in the 3,800 lb. range when fully equipped and a driver.

ALL the "good" suspension pieces from the WS-6 T/As ('77-'79) will fit either of these cars, too, making them lethal in the corners.

So, flip a coin, do "rock/paper/scissors" or other "which one?" game. Both cars represent an era that has gone by, but still can be reckoned with in the modern "performance world".

Jim

thanks jim! well, the camaro i havent seen...the formula however is kind of a turd. he glued the t tops on in fear of leaking, the interior needs the driver seat redone (all i seen with naked eye and flashlight) and paint needs redone. the formula is great, but i thought the 400 was smallblock? its not a 403 olds, no filler neck on the front stickin up. the vin has h for 5th digit, 400sb i think. it needs engine rebuild, prolly tranny to (couldnt hurt) but he wants about 1300 more than i want to pay. maybe i should just find me a 70-73 camaro or firebird in cali and pay the extra 5k for a decent one and drop a 454 in it, it might already have one. did i say the guy works at a body shop? and glued t tops..you figure that one out...

Ifmoriginal, defintely NOT a Chevy engine in '78. I believe a few were sold in Cal with 305. if it says "Formula 400", it's a Pontiac 400. Spounds pretty rough, though.

If you buy a Camaro, the 454 would be fine. If you get a Firebird, the entire Pontiac "community" would both shun you, and line up to race for money... (:- Ther is no reason to NOT use the Pontiac engine in a Pontiac. It can and does make more streetable power than most other designs, including BBC. Some of those E-headed 461s are lethal in street trim.

That being said, I like Chevy engines, as long as they're in Chevys!

Jim

thanks jim! well, the camaro i havent seen...the formula however is kind of a turd. he glued the t tops on in fear of leaking, the interior needs the driver seat redone (all i seen with naked eye and flashlight) and paint needs redone. the formula is great, but i thought the 400 was smallblock? its not a 403 olds, no filler neck on the front stickin up. the vin has h for 5th digit, 400sb i think. it needs engine rebuild, prolly tranny to (couldnt hurt) but he wants about 1300 more than i want to pay. maybe i should just find me a 70-73 camaro or firebird in cali and pay the extra 5k for a decent one and drop a 454 in it, it might already have one. did i say the guy works at a body shop? and glued t tops..you figure that one out...

I'd stay away from that formula with the tops glued in. When I got my corvette it was a steal but it was also a similiar hack job. There are wood screws driven into the body. When the guy replaced the speakers he just screwed them (with wood screws again) into the interior trim peices instead of removing them and installing the speakers in their proper locations. It's a pain in the ass to deal with something someone has wrecked like this. When all is said in done I will probably spend more money undoing what he did to it then I saved, and I got the car for $3700.

I guess I focus too much on "the engine", and missed the comment about the t-tops being glued shut. I don't like t-top cars anyway, but you bet, RED FLAG!!! The ONLY thing that saves a t-top car when you put real power to it is a cage.

Stepho,

Sportlinetta's been in the barrell for a while now, eh? (:-

Jim

so yeah, i think i will find a better car in san diego. anyone selling theirs? hahahahaha i think i will go with a 70-73 camaro rolling chassis if i can find a good one, a 454 ho crate, and mass-flo efi...think that would be good? i think it would make about 425-430hp which is good, and be streetable with efi. good deal? and i dont really want t tops...car flexes a lot and twists....no good for nothing! thanks guys, i am steering clear.

mr pbody, what are the differences in bore/stroke combo for both the 400? they are 4 and 1/8th by 3 and 3/4 right? just better heads and cam stock form?

99,

400 Chevy "small block" (there are two 400 Chevys, one is really a 402 BB, but called "400" in GMC trucks, early '70s) has a bore of 4.125" and a stroke of 3.75". It uses standard deck height and bore spacing of the small block (ala 350 Chevy). It also uses the 17-bolt heads typical of 350 Chevy.

400 Pontiac is a completely different animal, and virtually zero of the parts interchange. 4.120" bore and 3.75" stroke. It has a much taller deck height and a longer connecting rod. The heads use 10 head bolts (1/2" vs. 7/16" for the Chevy). The bore spacing is "bigger", falling right between BBC and SBC.

In stock form, the small block heads have an okay intake port and a good exhaust port. With a little work, they SHINE! That is, the small block Chevy has among the best flowing (per size) heads out there, once modified or replaced with aftermarket.

The Pontiac has a much better intake port, stock, but the exhaust port is woeful, and that's being kind. With significant porting, the stock Pontiac can be a good head, but the Chevy is probably a bit better with the same level of porting. As with the Chevy, aftermarket parts change everything.

Where the two engines differ the most (aside from durability, and we'll touch on that in a minute), is how and where they make their power. The Chevy, as with most small blocks, works best when it's revved a bit. Usually to about 7,000, but with some "real" goodies, we've built 'em to go well over 8,000. Low-end torque is better with 400 than any of the smaller ones, but that's the displacement at work. It's still a bit "shy" when it comes to serious torque, compared to other 400 CID engines.

The Pontiac's strong suit is the opposite. It makes power right off idle, and can pull hard to about 5,200 in stock form (350 horse and better). Due to the shape of the intake port and the rod length, the Pontiac 400 out-torques all other GM 400 CID engines of the era. When certain modifications are made, it can also rev up pretty good, and make good power. We usually limit them to the 7,000 range unless MEGA-bucks are spent on bottom-end pieces.

Which is "better"? Depends on your application. I like Pontiac engines in Pontiacs, but I also like Chevy engines in Chevys! If you're building a street engine for "fun" and not too serious, the Pontiac has an edge due to the torque production and low-speed performance (GTO didn't earn its reputation from losing). For a "race" engine, if all the bases are "touched", the Chevy is probably a skoche better.

Which is tougher? The Pontiac, no doubt. Now, small block guys, don't wig out on me here. Hear me out. If we were comparing 350 Chevy to 400 Pontiac, Chevy is a tougher engine, especially when pumped up with mid-level parts. But 400 is NOT 350. The bores are too large, requiring "siamesed" cylinders (no water flows between them). The main bearings are also too big for the original design of the block. Due to this, a 2-bolt main is desired over a 4-bolt (unlike 350), if stock. Chevrolet never produced a stock-block "performance" 400. This is why. When using an aftermarket block, everything changes. The connecting rod in the Chevy is also too short for the stroke. The Pontiac has a definite "edge" there. When we build 400SBs, we ALWAYS install 6" rods if the customer will spring for them. The 350 5.7" rod is an improvement over the 5.565" 400 rod, but still not enough. The Pontiac uses a 6.625" rod.

Anyway, I hope you get the idea. For some of the younger crowd today, there's a LOT of confusion regarding the GM engines of the muscle car era. Each division had it's "own" engine family until the mid '70s. Buicks are unique, as are Olds, Pontiac, Chevy and Caddy. They crossed "lines" once in a while, but were usually independent. All 4 of the main divisions had a 350 CID engine. None of them were even similar. None have the same bore and stroke combination. And not all of the 350s were "good" performance engines. Actually, the Chevy is a far better performer than the others, with the Olds coming in "2nd". Once CID approaches 400, small blocks begin to fade, especially in stock form.

NOTE: There's no such thing as a "small block Pontiac" OR a "big block Pontiac". There is the "Pontiac". Same deck height, bore spacing etc. from '55 through '79, with displacements ranging from 287 in '55, to 455 in '70. The only parametric difference besides bore/stroke is the main bearing diameter. They all even use the same rod length. A notable exception is the bastardized 265/301 Pontiac. It has a MUCH shorter deck and uses Buick-style rods and Chevy valves. Wierd little engine. Not much "account". The crank is too wimpy to be useful.

Helpful?

Jim

I would say the best way to describe a Pontiac V-8s is not by its physical size, but by the main journal diameter- 265/301 short-decks, 326/350/389/400s all have 3.0" mains, and 421/4428/455s have 3.25" mains. As mentioned earlier, all Pontiac V-8s are about the same size externally, so the only real way to tell the CID is by checking for a casting number (i.e. "400" indicates 400 CID) under the head, and block serial no. stamp.

I've owned both Chevys and Pontiacs, and both have their strengths and weaknesses- the best thing I could say about both is they're typical GM, keep them maintained and they're reliable. I personally prefer the Pontiac Firebird when it comes to F-bodies- better overall styling and handling IMO. A Firebird is probably a better investment, since it's lower production numbers and high popularity increase it's value.

Geno