'98 Windstar - Brake Shake - Help

My brakes shake when approaching a gradual, moderate stop, from say 45 mph to 0. They work well and don’t vibrate much under severe hard-stop braking conditions. But at slower speeds and more frequent stops, they vibrate so much that my drink rattles in the cup holder. The van cruises well at 65 or 70 mph with minimal, tolerable, front end vibration. This is the setup:

- New Bendix front brake rotors (Advance Auto Parts)
- New Bendix TitaniuMetallic II brake pads (Advance Auto Parts)
- New front caliper bolts and pins (Advance Auto Parts)
- New front anti rattle caliper clips (Rock Auto)
- New front caliper pin boots.........(Rock Auto)
- New Sta-Lub synthetic high temp brake caliper pin grease (Napa Auto Parts)
- New Bendix rear brake shoes (Advance Auto Parts)
- New Bendix rear brake drums (Advance Auto Parts)
- New rear brake drum spring kit......(Pep Boys)
- New Pro Stop rear wheel cylinders (Pep Boys)

Bled brakes myself with Mighty Vac. Broke brakes in with tried and true bedding procedure. Worked good with no vibration for about a dozen or more stops. Then failure kicked in with annoying brake shake. Even my 3 year old daughter recognizes something is wrong, when she asks: what is that Daddy? Referring to the vibration. I tried some reconciliation as follows:

- Professional free brake inspection - They say all is well.
- Professional flush and new high temp brake fluid refill – NO CHANGE!
- Professional brake bleeding - Tighter pedal but brake shake REMAINS!
- Wiswinds' rotor/pad recommendation: Brembo slots and Akebono ceramic – great brake ‘Bite’, but brake shake got WORSE!
- Restored rotor/pad combo to Bendix – Brake shake improved but still REMAINS!
- Professional rotor/drum cut/balance service – Brake shake got WORSE!
- Replaced front cut rotors with new Bendix uncut rotors – Brake shake improved but still REMAINS!

I did not replace the failure prone brake pressure switch, but it is not leaking. I have thrown a big piece ‘o change into this maintenance and repair project – not that you have’nt already noticed – but it is well worth the trouble because I hate brake shake. Anyone care?

Wow, I'd say you surely get the prize for being thorough! Tell us about your tires however. I chased vibration around on my '99 Olds Intrigue and never really got it totally dealt with until I changed out the OEM Goodyears. Just prior to replacing them I noticed that my front left was actually de-laminating a bit - the treads as they came over the tire did a bit of an "S" turn. The tires were 6 years old at the time and had a fair amount of tread left. I had an older tire on a previous car de-laminate too. Mucho vibration with that one too. I for one, until these two events underestimated how much difference a tire can make. Check them out.

Best of luck

Thanks for the good advice Busboy.

My tires are new (less than 2k miles), off brand, from Tires Plus:
Primewell PS850 215/70R15; UTQG spec: tread wear 460, traction A, temp B.

They are not not too bad, with a nice tread design and decent water channeling performance, for $50/tire. I have a '98 cargo Windstar as well with Yokohamas all around. I use it as my dry transport pickup truck.

I will swap out the front tires between the two and hope for some good results.

Yes I would swap front to rear on the tires.. Did you have the vibration before you got the tires.? Also you may have a suspension and or front end issue.Great detail on the info..

Hard to tell about the vibration before I got the new tires. I did all the work in one swooping move, for example: brakes, tires, etc. I also did a suspension project at the same time.

Front
- New Monroe Sensa-Trac Quick Struts - (Pep Boys)
- New lube able Tread Saver Stabilizer Bar Links - (Advance Auto Parts)
- New lube able Tread Saver outer tie rod ends - (Advance Auto Parts)
Rear
- New Sensa-Trac Shocks - (Pep Boys)

Will post back once I have swapped Primewell tires for Yokohamas.

Well, I swapped the front and rear tires during a lunch break. I didn't have time to merge different tires between the two Windstars that I own, given that is what I said I was gonna' do. Anyway, the result is the same: brake shake!

Strange... hard braking from 65 mph or more, down to 35 mph or less, without activating ABS, feels nice, solid, and smooth. But a gradual brake, say, from 35 or 40 mph, down to 10 or 15 mph, or even a stoplight, produces annoying, rippling, vibrations, through the steering wheel and the chassis.

I will probably try swapping Yokohamas from another Windstar, because I can, and I am running out of options.

If you have access to a runout gauge I'd be real interested to see if you have any lateral hub runout. Sometimes you can compensate for that by "indexing" the rotor.

Runout is a possibility, but I think it is really rare. I don't have your qualifications RickMN, ie: retired ASE Master/L-1 Technician. So, that is just my 2 cents worth.

But, what would you say about minor rust buildup on the surfaces where the hub and rotor contact one another? How clean do these areas have to be? Can they be sanded? Should they be sanded? Is my inquiry just a wasted shot in the dark?

Thanks for the response.

Runout is a possibility, but I think it is really rare. I don't have your qualifications RickMN, ie: retired ASE Master/L-1 Technician. So, that is just my 2 cents worth.

But, what would you say about minor rust buildup on the surfaces where the hub and rotor contact one another? How clean do these areas have to be? Can they be sanded? Should they be sanded? Is my inquiry just a wasted shot in the dark?

Thanks for the response.

ibia22

I take it by the responces that there are people on this forum who do care.

I think RickMN has a good idea of checking the runout. What I would do is to jack up the van remove the front tires and put the lug nuts back on tight to keep the rotor in place. Then start the van and put it in D. You should be able to check the runout (side to side movement) by holding an object close to the rotor. Also, you might be able to hear it.

Have you checked the wheel bearings? I had one go bad on my 95 with out making noise. It just developed slop. I believe the bad wheel bearing caused some shaking too.

I too hate brake shake!

Regards

Dan

Ok LeSabre97mint, I tried your recommendation.

I didn't notice noise or run-out. But I did discover that the driver side hub and rotor didn't rotate freely in Drive (D). I stepped on the gas lightly and it jerked erratically on and off. I tried to rotate it with my hand and it was very difficult compared to the passenger side.

So I popped off the caliper and extended the piston and re compressed it a couple of times. Then I put it all back together. And it seemed to rotate fine for a few minutes until it fell into the same jam as before.

It is probably a sticky caliper or a failing master cylinder. So, thank you, without your recommendation I probably wouldn't have noticed.

This is a typical example, demonstrating the value of doing your own auto repair. Professional help is rarely valuable or effective. How did this slip by a professional brake inspection, a professional brake bleed, and a professional brake fluid flush, all on three separate occasions?

Now, check this out. Before I reassembled everything, just for fun, I cleaned the area on both front hubs, as illustrated below, with sand paper and a wire brush. Then I used brake cleaner to finish things off nice and pretty.

The results are AMAZING! The brake shake has nearly disappeared and stopping the Windstar, at any speed, is smooth and precise. That area on the hub had rust buildup in small uneven layers. I would have never thought that this could affect rotational balance.

Knowing what I know now, I am gonna' clean them again because I didn't do as good a job as is possible. Frankly, I was not expecting much of a result. I think a second time around should cure the vibrations completely.

However, I will still have to replace either the master cylinder or the calipers. But I don't know how to diagnose the weak link. Any suggestions?


http://www.boxco1.com//MiscPic/1998_windstar_hub.BMP

ibia22

Glad we could get you pointed in the correct direction! I believe you have a sticking caliper. If it was the master cylinder all of the wheel cylinders/calipers would be sticking. I had a 94 Caravan that had a bad master cylinder. Both front calipers would not release because something in the master cylinder was not allowing fluid to flow out of the calipers and the brakes were smoking!

Regards

Dan

I was going to jump in with the caliper recommendation, but when you mentioned that you had replaced the pins, I though otherwise....and did not think it would cause the shake unless it was bad enough to heat up the rotor, and cause it to warp.

I ended up with an intermittent sticking caliper.
Things would be just great, and then I would get a slight vibration when driving...that would get worse.
However, I had VERY hot rotor and brake pads right afterward.
I ended up having my mechanic install "loaded" calipers, and the nice slotted rotors also needed replacement.

In short, if the caliper IS sticking, even intermittently, I would replace the pair of them.

The other thing worth noting, is that my passenger side wheel bearing did have "slight" play, no sound, just a slight play in the steering.
I had it replaced also.

I had these things done as I was having other work, that I do not feel comfortable doing done......Front wheel bearing, front springs (1 was broken), lower control arm (for lower ball joint with slight play), and A/C evaporator coil (leaking) are things that needed to be done, and I felt better having done.
My '96 is a little older than your unit, and I have over 185K miles on it.


I also agree, that your trips to the shop should have found a sticking caliper, unless....like mine it was very intermittent (and those issues never seem to happen at the shop), however, they should have picked up on any extra play in the wheel bearings, or other front end suspension part.