Beafore I Boost

Ok i've never boosted a car and before I do that i want to prep the engine and tranny for the extra stress it will be going through.I know you need forged internals ect. But like i said I've never gone out shopping for these parts and i dont know everything i need b4 my car can take a turbo setup. So my question(s) is What are all the parts i need and how much roughly are they gunna cost me for the good 1s not the cheap shit. Thanks

This has been at least the 3rd or 4th turbo thread within the past two weeks. Im sure someone will tell you, but please search and you will firnd a myriad of threads with other people asking the same question. Use google and dont buy stuff off ebay and it will be at least 2-3k for something good.

ok i did a little lokking around and found a thread that dealt with the internals and stuff.I guess i should of done that 1st. Ok now i have a new question that i couldnt find a thread on. What the compression for the pistons on a 2000 cavy 2200(2.2l) at and when i get new pistons what would be the best compression i should keep them at for boosting? and to add 1 more thing how can i change the gear ratio in my tranny(auto)?

Oh my god...i think i should write a book or something. You guys need to do a little research before thinking you're going to boost. First off, you DO NOT NEED INTERNALS, but it is going to limit the power you can make. Cavaliers dont exactly have high compression so running lower boost and not making a ton of power is completely fine. The weakest part in your car is the stock auto tranny...

I dont even know what else to say about this...if you have questions, you can PM me...i've built 3 setups on my car alone and helped countless other people in town and online...just lmk, i'm willing to help

oh yeah...if you link ebay turbo parts, i'm going to smack you

I'm so sick of hearing about people who are gonna be "boosting" their cars. It's just the thing to do I guess. I've been on this forum for years and sooooo many people have come and gone asking about "How can I boost my car!?".....I've only seen 1 person do it, and that's Derk. So I'll take these threads seriously when I see it done.

I'm so sick of hearing about people who are gonna be "boosting" their cars. It's just the thing to do I guess. I've been on this forum for years and sooooo many people have come and gone asking about "How can I boost my car!?".....I've only seen 1 person do it, and that's Derk. So I'll take these threads seriously when I see it done.


wow...i'm not the only one sick of it. I hate hearing about all these people, both online and locally that talk on and on about how they're going to boost their cars and blah blah blah...nothing ever happens.

I didn't even say anything about my turbo setup until it was on the car. Sure i asked questions but i researched first and avoided the stupid mistakes that most people make.

If you're going to turbo your car, shut the fuck up and do it...i dont want to hear about it....if you have questions, great! I only help those who help themselves tho...

wow...i'm not the only one sick of it.
fuck no your not

we even have a god damn sticky called "how to: boost your car" that everyone seems to avoid

wow thanks for the fucking help guys if u look at my posts theres not alot so im still kinda new to the site so sry for missing the sticky! And i do plan on boosting my car i just need a little info b4 i go in the dark on this thing!Its people like you that fucking make good sites seem shitty! And if youll take my thread searious when its done then why bother even asking it in the 1st place??So yeah thanks alot guys really appreciate it

schister66 i know uve turboes cars n shit so i pm u.I want internals done so i can boost higher not just at 7psi im looking to hit 15 maybe and i dunno if i want to get a new tranny or get a rebuild kit? Only problem is i cant find ne trannys out there so prob gunna rebuild the damn thing.Thanks for your help man.

one thing for everyone to know

Power kills engines, not PSI....the term "psi or pressure ratio" doesn't have any effect on whether your engine blows up or not....the power created is what damages the engine

It's not that hard. I turboed my Cavy and its running great, but I have the eco which is a whole different story... I don't want to tell you to get a different car or anything, but if you want to run 15psi on forged internals its gonna cost ya...

I would say first off just start reading as much as you can about the subject. Then figure out what parts YOU want. Then just wait until you have absolutely everything ready. Don't forget about little stuff like exhaust gaskets. And its very nice to have someone knowledgeable there to help you. you'll neeed a welder, cutting tools, airtools are nice, but not needed.

There is a ton of stuff you need and after you start looking around for parts you'll realize how many parts are needed to do the job right.

If you have any more specific questions maybe someone can help.

Good luck!!!

if you want to run 15psi on forged internals its gonna cost ya...


saying this proves that you dont know as much about turbo setups as you think....Let me say it again so that everyone hears it "PSI DOESN"T MEAN A DAMN THING...HORSEPOWER KILLS ENGINES, NOT PSI!!!" The only practical measurement is by telling us either the horsepower you're making OR the lb/min flow of your turbo at a specific pressure ratio. Take your own advice and learn more...

I knew someone would cry about that comment. I know technically psi and horsepower are two completely different beasts, but they are RELATIVE to each other. its just easier to say that way. because honestly... lets think about it. whta happens when you turn up the boost?...more horsepower right!!?! Run of thumb is ABOUT 10 hp per lb of boost. ROUGHLY... ABOUT that much. DON'T QUOTE ME

do me a favor... explain to me how this cavalier owner would EVER be able to run 15 POUNDS OF BOOST, WITHOUT making to much HORSEPOWER and blowing his motor...
ok were talking about a 2.2 115 hp engine STOCK. ok maybe if he slaps the smallest turbo ever on his car and runs that much boost he might not make enough power to blow it up. that is the only way.

I understand what your saying, but I was just using that as... sort of a guideline...

I don't want to start an argument. I am not an E-Thug! lol

And as far as my turbo knowlege goes... I might not be the turbo guru or anything, but I have enough brains to take a naturally aspirated cavalier and make it a reliable daily driver that will run a mid 13 second 1/4 mile. I found all the parts myself and did the whole project on a budget AND installed it myslef with the help of one friend over the weekend! So don't go calling me stupid because I typed "15psi" instead of "alot of horsepower".

Peace

Ok well here's how it all works.

Turbos flow a set amount of air at a given pressure ratio. That amount of air is measured in lb/min flow. Now if i was to take a turbo like a DSM 14b for example (stock eclipse turbo) and run it at 1 bar (14.5037psi), it would flow about 10 lb/min. Take another turbo, say a standard T3/T04 57 trim .63ar, it would flow ~30-32 lb/min. The difference in lb/min flow is where you see the power difference from a small turbo to a big turbo. If you were to put both of those turbos on something that i'm familiar with, say a B series Honda VTEC engine, the 14b at 1 bar would yield roughly 210whp; whereas, the 57 trim would push past the 320whp mark.

In this case, the pressure means nothing. The level of boost you run on a specific turbo really doesn't mean anything in a comparitive sense; therefore, saying that one person is running 15psi doesn't mean a thing without knowing the flow rate of the turbo. Some turbos are going to run out of their respective efficiency ranges at higher boost which can cause further problems, but that is due to the heat produced by the inefficient compression of the air, not the actual pressure ratio itself.

Another common misconception is this idea of "too much cylinder pressure." People think that if their turbo pushes too much boost, that it will somehow cause the engine to blow simply because of the pressure. Cylinder pressure in conjunction with the actual pressure the turbo is producing is not something that really matters in any way. If you really think about it, the only thing that really makes a difference is how much air you can stick in a cylinder. The sheer volume of air is what does the damage, not the pressure it is at. More air = more power and therefore, i proved my original statement that power kills engines, not PSI alone.

If you have any questions or want to learn to read compressor maps, just let me know and i'll be glad to help.

References:

http://www.stealth316.com/1-tech.htm
http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm
http://oldschool.supracentral.com/mods/turbo/57trim.gif
http://www.mygen.com/users/dbruce/myz31/TurboMaps/L28ET%20Engine%20Air%20Flow%20and%20Turbo%20Compre ssor%20Maps.htm
http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/

but why would he pick a small turbo like a 14b and run 15 psi? Even then it STILL might be enough power to blow his engine. and how did you come up with those hp numbers for the 2 different turboes?

Thanks for the informative links. I know how to read comp maps but, I'll still check em out.

But do you know what I mean... if he compares the flow rate of his engine, looks at some compressor maps, and matches up a turbo thats a good size for what he wants, then there should be no way he could run that much boost without problems...

Ok to start...

Why run a 14b at 15psi?? I'm not saying its a good idea or that i'm going to, it was simply a basis for comparison. I'm familiar with the flow rate of that turbo and it seems to be a particularly common one in lower dollar setups. There are benefits to using smaller turbos. Inevitably they spool faster and produce more torque through the lower rpms and midrange. Having a fast, streetable car isn't all about the peak power numbers. I dont drive my car from 7-9k rpm all the time...i need some mid.

The power that a 14b would not be enough to blow an engine unless the tuner was completely inept. One of my close friends had a 14b on his D series setup (1.6L SOHC VTEC) and ran it on 11psi daily. He had a built motor and before swapping it in lieu of the stock D, he decided to blow the stocker up. He ran 28psi on the 14b (well above the efficieny) on a tune for 11psi(.8bar). The engine actually lasted an entire weekend and it wasn't even tuned for it!! If you Cavalier guys are concerned with blowing an engine (2.2L no less) w/ a tiny little 14b at 15psi (1.1bar), then GM needs to seriously rethink their "engineering" department because that is just plain crappy.

The way i came up w/ those horsepower numbers is simple. I've been around turbo Hondas for about 4 years now. I have seen countless setups and know the approximate power they're capable of making. Also, unlike most people, i've taken the time to sit down and discuss various topics w/ my mentor, Mac Trapp who is a mechanical engineer specializing in fluid dynamics (aka how liquids and gasses move). He worked for Garrett/ Honeywell for 8 years before opening his own business, STC, where he builds custom turbos for any type of use be it road race, drag, HPDE, etc.... I have also read compressor maps and learned how it all works...for the most part.

To answer your final question "if he matches a turbo to his engine properly, can he run 15psi without blowing it?" to be honest, i dont know. There are simply too many variables. It depends on a few things. It depends on the size of the turbo (lb/min flow rating at given pressure ratio), the engine used, the strength of said engine, how aggressive the tune is, what fuel is used, how much timing is added, and the tuners ability to properly tune a turbo engine safely.

Having said all of that, it is anyone's guess whether or not his engine can withstand 15psi without knowing all of those variables. Basing this on something i understand more, my own setup, we'll continue.

If i were to run 15 psi on my setup (seeing as i had a 3bar map sensor which i dont) i would be on the fence w/ 92 octane. It could be done, but i would be hesitant to drive it hard daily like i do now. With my current setup, i would be making ~380-395whp at 15psi given my IATs didnt rise much. That is a lot of power to put through a stock 1.8L; however, it has not only been done, but surpassed. The highest horsepower stock B series is around the 600whp range. That's with a completely stock OEM honda longblock. The car was tuned on C16 race gas w/ a T3/67 at 21psi on Neptune IIRC. There are countless engines like that on Honda-tech where the owners, generally people who are testing things or simply dont care, push their engines to the breaking point. I know that the highest i can recall is a 692whp/480wtq @ 32psi on a GT3582r on an S2000. It was bone stock w/ something like 34,000 on the odometer. That engine is stout. Also, if you didnt know about the F22c, it is a 2.2L w/ 11:1 compression!

The moral of this novel is that nothing is based on PSI and what you think the limit may be, may not actually be the limit. Dont be fooled by other people's ignorant banter on the internet because the truth is, only about .1% of the stuff you hear is going to be correct.

also, if you THINK you know how to read compressor maps, you wouldn't have asked this question. You should keep reading and keep learning. It took me about 1.5 years to really know and understand what everything meant on a compressor map and how to apply them to my useage. If you have any questions of want other great links, just let me know!

That goes for everyone!

First off...I am so sorry for completly jacking this guys original thread, we are way off topic. But maybe through this little..."discussion" he will learn a thing or two...

I am not trying to be a dick, but do you own a Cavalier? The reason I ask is because to get to this specific forum not only do you have to click Chevrolet..., but also Cavalier... Yet the car in your sig is a honda...???

Anyways, ... I know about turboes being streetable... I probably have more power in the lower rpm's than you...

And for a stock s2000 making 600+ hp... I have to call :bs: no way on stock rods and pistons...maybe using the stock block... but if all your using is the block then it's not really "Stock" anymore is it? But I will be honest. I don't know anything about that... but even if someone did... Who Cares? that has nothing to do with this subject. Gm took a regular Ecotec (cavalier engine) and made over 1000hp with it... big deal... I didn't do it.

I don't have a fluid dynamics engineer handy to mentor me about this stuff, but I'm no expert... I just know a little about turboing Cavaliers... more specifically the eco.

"["if he matches a turbo to his engine properly, can he run 15psi without blowing it?" to be honest, i dont know.]"

no. he can't. that engine was not the greatest thing to come from GM... not made for boost... not gonna be pretty.
like forest gump once said. "that is all I have to say about that."

and it is understood that what is most import is CFM or lb/min not psi or boost... I get it. I understand.

I'm now offically done stealing this guys thread and hopefully I"ll try to give him some freindly advise from one turbocharged cavalier owner to another. It is up to him whether or not to believe it.

later on

well then that actually helped me out alot i dont plan on boosting my car until i can get more of an understanding on how they work and what will work best with my car.So in your so called"jacking of my thread" u actually helped along with Schister66.And yeah i kinda knew it wasnt the PSi that killed engine it was the power made wich actually makes alot of sense when u brake it down. I dont have one of those mentors but i do have a friend that has some knowledge with turbo systems(although hes a wrx fan).I think i do a little reaserch on the lb/min on some turbos(do you know what it would be for the T3/T4 i head thats a good turbo) see if my friend can help me with the comp. maps and take a look at the links then try to match the best 1 for my engine stock for now seeing as i just put a new engine in it. So thanks again guys. And i guess GM didnt make the best engine for my car for boosting but the 4T40E tranny can hold its own up to about 500hp so i hear.

Well i'm glad my little geek rant helped. If you want some help picking a turbo, just let me know your goals. Be very detailed!! Most people want a certain hp number, but forget that it can be attained many different ways and with a variety of powerbands. Let me know what kind of range you want, a peak power you'd like to hit and a realistic budget. I'll find you something that will work.

In exchange for that, you need to find out what the MAF sensor is rated for

ok i think ill start actuall lookin around a bit when i have a day off :( i'm a workaholic but im glad that there r ppl here that really know what they r talking about that can actually help ill keep in touch through this thread or ill pm u which ever 1. Right now im not certian as 2 how much whp i want (new kid on the way and its my only car till i get a beater) but when i start looking ill have some number to toss at ya.Thanks again

My budget im looking to hit for a comlete setup is about $2000-$2500 which ill get from my taxes if not more. A range i want from just a turbo is maybe 180-230 whp which i think is possible. If can get more outta a stock 2.2 then im happy. I found a .63 A/R T3/T4 Hybrid Turbocharger
Compressor wheel Trim - 50
Turbine Housing A/R - .63
Max Flow - 635 CFM
Max Psi-30lbs of boost

Which will work very well with my car:grinyes:But i dont remeber where i found it:banghead: i just need a blow off valve,waste gate,intercooler,turbo manifold,oil feed+return lines all the brackets and shit. If only i could find 1 website that would have all of this i would be happy. Ne ideas on a good web page?Or ne ideas on the turbo?

by the specs you listed, that's an Ebay turbo and therefore, not something you want to buy. Any journal bearing T3/T04 is going to hit a wall after 24 psi rather than the BS numbers they tell you.

For your power goal, i would highly suggest the T3 Super 60. Its not a hybrid turbo, but for your goals, a hybrid is going to simply be too large. With the Super 60, you'll get full boost fast and meet your goals easily

Hmm.. Just to answer your question, this is a list of things you will need to buy if you're gonna piece yourself a turbo kit which most likely you will be doing cuz you dont have an Ecotec..

I believe you have the 2200 right? since its not a z24...

You'll need to buy:
-A turbo of your choice-get a turbonetics or garret, no ebay! i have a turbonetics T3/T4 Internally Gated Turbo
-Exhaust manifold-this you gotta get from ebay, theres this guy who makes turbo exhaust manifolds for us cavy's and sunfires and sell them on ebay, the seller's name is happythoughts47, i bought mine from him
-A Bov of your choice-i have a HKS SSQV BOV-$250
-2" to 2.5" Charge Piping, either Aluminum, mild steel or stainless steel... Get them from ebay if you want aluminum and its cheap, if you want steel its gonna be expensive...
-2.5" to 3" FULL Exhaust from downpipe.. Buy a High Flow cat if you have emission, if not, just leave it out..
-Oil Feed and return if you have an oil cooled turbo..
-a small size intercooler from ebay is gonna be good enough
-32lb to 42lb injectors should be good size for you..
-1-Step Colder spark plugs-i bought NGK 1-step colder spark plugs
-Injector clips or harnesses for the injectors..
-Wideband of your choice-im gonna get an innovate wideband kit
-Boost gauge and oil pressure gauge-i got mine from ebay from glowshift
-HPTuner-$650

Thats pretty much it...

Its gonna cost you have $2500-3000 all together...

yeah i was also thinking with going with the super 60 but now tha u meantion it i think i will

you could save a lot of money from the setup that Lefix has listed, but that gives you a good idea of what you need....