Can you import a leon cupra r into the US?

I want a cupra r, but i live in the us and don't know if it is possible to import one. Does anyone have any information on this or have one themselves? thanks

Well, since the Golf/Jetta are on sale in the US, I'm not too sure if it will meet impact standard laws or not- most likely the latter meaning- they would have to crash it :(

You can smuggle one in from Mexico :D

Yep mexico it is.








The friendlist SEAT site and everything VAG in the world

http://www.seatenthusiasts.co.uk/forum

try it.........:D

Sometimes it's not so difficult to import a car. I see quite often cars very unknown and not sold in Europe (Acura, Plymouth, Dodge, GMC, etc.) which have at the beginning plates from the USA and then plates of France, the differences are not big : a rear anti-mist light or some little things like that. I don't know for the USA but it might not be more hard.
And regarding the crash tests, the EuroNcap tests are more reliable than American crash tests.

Bringing a car into the US is much more difficult than bringing a car to the EU. Many more regulations and many more hoops to jump through.

What do you want, when the USA will be a democratic and capitalistic country (not protectionnist), it'll be a good thing !

It's not protection against competition...it's protection against unsafe or polluting vehicles. In order to bring a car into the US (for anyone other than the manufacturer), you must prove that it passes certain safety and emissions regulations. I'd rather have clean air than have every car built in the world on US roads....as much as I'd like to have every car on the road available in the States...

it's protectionnism. i'm sorry. Indeed, why do the EU accept many cars (from the US for example) and not the USA ? !!
A current car produced in Europe is often more safety and polutes less than a current american car. Let's compare a C Class II and a Chrysler Cirrus for the crash tests ! :D Or an Espace IV and a Town & Country ! Which one is the safetyer ? heum. And regarding the pollution, Europeans norms are harder than american's.

This thread is degenerating...Stef, you are not entirely right, anf hudson you neither. As a start, I am sure that most of the cars on sale today do not pollute so much anymore. Rules are strict both in the US and in the EU. Which has the strictest can be researched by either of you if you have enough time to spare, but don't go into silly comparisons!

But I just noticed many cars from the USA (with plates from there) geting French plates (it must be the same in the other countries of th EU).... I never saw a Peugeot, a Seat or a Lancia in the USA.... That's all ;)

Many people import cars from the US, and many American expats import their own cars over to the EU. It is unlikely that you will see any Lancias in the US, because you don't see many in europe neither! (look at their sales figures...) As far as I understand, importing a new car into the US is not very simple, and perhaps expensive, but to say it is due to protectionist measures...I don't know. Mybe there simply is no market for Seats and Peugeots in the US!

No market for Seat, I don't know. But there is one for Alfa and Peugeot of course !!! that's why they will come bask in the USA as 2007 for Alfa and certainly 2008 for Peugeot. I know that Lancia don't sell a lot of cars, but you understood what I said, I mean some people working in the USA but who were living in Europa before had maybe a Lancia (or a Renault or an Alfa, or whatever) and went in the USA with their own car.. but I never saw that. Though from the USA to the EU, it exists (even cars sold in France like Passat, V70, etc. but in the US specs).
I think it's due to protectionnist measures, otherwise, howdo you explain that ? (there are about the same proportion of people Europeans working in the USA than the contrary ;) ).

Originally posted by Stefanel1
No market for Seat, I don't know. But there is one for Alfa and Peugeot of course !!! that's why they will come bask in the USA as 2007 for Alfa and certainly 2008 for Peugeot. I know that Lancia don't sell a lot of cars, but you understood what I said, I mean some people working in the USA but who were living in Europa before had maybe a Lancia (or a Renault or an Alfa, or whatever) and went in the USA with their own car.. but I never saw that. Though from the USA to the EU, it exists (even cars sold in France like Passat, V70, etc. but in the US specs).
I think it's due to protectionnist measures, otherwise, howdo you explain that ? (there are about the same proportion of people Europeans working in the USA than the contrary ;) ).

Stef:

You post quite often on here and I'm sure you know cars from your region of the world. But there isn't much call for Peugeots or Alfa Romeos in the US...atleast not the ones they offered us a decade ago. If there was a burning market for them, they wouldn't have left in the first place. The final years of Alfa Romeo and Peugeot in the US, they each had trouble selling 5,000 units over 12 months. As the saying goes, Ford loses more Tauruses falling off the back of trucks than that.

There is NO certainty that Peugeot is coming back to the US in 2008...or before the next decade. PSA might like to re-enter the market, but they're not prepared for a 2008 return. If you can find me proof to the contrary, I'll gladly apologize to you. And Alfa's return has been delayed (yet again) until 2008.

Just because you bought a car while living in Europe doesn't mean you can bring it back to the States. Before the gray market laws were changed in the late 1980s, an individual was allowed to bring ONE vehicle into the country in their lifetime. That is no longer the case and each imported vehicle must meet the US regulations.

And Just because in EU crash tests the Espace fares better than the Voyager, doesn't mean the Espace is safer. In US tests, the Espace wouldn't fare as well.

European emissions regulations are not more stringent than US regulations. Emissions laws in the US require much more than just measuring the amount of exhaust gases. Certain parts need to be warranteed for 5 years or more in addition to requiring computer changes and the like.

Dual front airbags are not required on EU vehicles. As far as I know, OBD-II is unique to North America. With more and more US-spec vehicles being tested on the EU-style offset crash tests, the US-market vehicles will be more rounded in their crashability than their EU-counterparts.

Db6: You're entirely correct that modern cars "do not pollute so much anymore." The numbers I've heard have current US-spec vehicles producing 1% of the emissions their counterparts did only 30 years ago. This only means the bar has moved. All petroleum powered vehicles pollute and everyone should continue to reduce these emissions. US emissions laws require that cars not only have low emissions from the factory, but they continue to have low emissions for their reasonable lifespan. THIS is where the EU and US diverge.

Again, I would love to have TVRs and SEATs and Lancias and various other vehicles offered in the US. I also want them to be offered at our level of specifications. It's not protectionism...it's creating a standard.

If Peugeot and Alfa didn't sell a lot of cars, that was because they didn't have a good after sale service, their network was poor, their cars were not automatics (rarely) and quite expensive, etc.
But today, Peugeot and Alfa would succeed in the USA as their range is as wild (even more) than VW for example.
Not official for the return of Peugeot but many rumours quite serious. More, the future PSA models are made at the US specifications. Official for Alfa.... maybe in 2008 ;)

For the Dual airbags, almost all cars sold in Europe have it as standard (and as the Mégane category, often 6 airbags in standard).

"US tests, the Espace wouldn't fare as well" : not sure of that, and EuroNcap are actually more realistic than US crash tests.

A question Hudson : you seem to live in the USA ("I would love to have TVRs and SEATs and Lancias and various other vehicles offered in the US") but I'm maybe wrong as long as you have a Citroën Xantia Hdi.... ;) so where do you live ?!!

Peugeot and Alfa Romeo's dealership network was poor. Even when Alfa Romeo was sold through Chrysler dealers, their sales were low. Besides any dealership problems, they were typically ranked at the bottom of all quality surveys and were not low priced.

Peugeot was quite egotistical about marketing in the US. The 505 and 504 were rugged cars but hardly worth the premium they sold for here.

Alfa Romeo 164 (a car I really liked) had spotty quality as well. The first car I drove was great. A year later, I drove another and it was so cheaply built that doors didn't sound solid and controls were weak.

Volkswagen's lineup is quite conservative. While their cars attract premium pricing in the US, they still sell for less than the prices Alfa Romeo and Peugeot asked in the early 1990s for their products. These two companies have to overcome a bad reputation they deservedly earned in the US in order to fetch the prices Fiat and PSA would expect. And Peugeot's probably going to need an SUV before they can sell vehicles in the US at any significant volume...unless they expect to compete at VW's prices...which I doubt.

No matter how realistic anyone thinks the EuroNCAP tests are, they are not the standard used in the US. The US tests are different and comparisons of similar vehicles on both sides of the Atlantic show that a vehicle that passes one test does not automatically do well on the other.

As with the airbags, many cars do have dual airbags but it is not standard across the board in Europe. Also, Eurobags are different than American airbags. These little changes necessary for the US market may look like market protectionism to the outsider, but it's more for protecting the companies selling here since a flawed product will bring a lawsuit faster than an airbag can inflate. If the borders were opened to every automotive product without some minimum level of emissions and safety regulation, the lawyers would be busy and a number of small manufacturers would most likely close their doors...whether or not they had an official presence in the US.

I don't have a Citroën and I do live in the US. Before you start believing that I don't know European cars, it is part of my job to know cars in the New and Old Country.

Well this conversation has taken quite a turn :bloated:



Anyway- Peugeot still stand a small chance of success in the United States- the 2O6 and 3O7 are too small to be considered at a family car level- and the 3O7 isn't "cool" enough to be bought by the Civic driving rice-boy crowd- seeing as it looks like a minivan.


This leaves the upcoming 4O7 and 6O7. The 6O7 is a luxury car minus the badge- the chance of it coming in at under US$40,000 is minimal- meaning that it'd struggle against BMW- just look at the poor old VW Passat W8 :(- and in good old fashioned economies of scale fashion- the 4O7 would have trouble competing against well established Japanese, US and German brands. Also noteworthy is that Peugeot's viechle quality is good- but lagging below the Japanese- but above most American makers


The Alfa Romeo has a MUCH better chance at success this time around- PROVIDED that they can get a proper after-sales, parts, service and dealer network going. The 147 is a very cool looking hatch and if they can price it against the Civic Si it'll be a surefire success, the 158- which'll probably be based around the Cadillac CTS- would have to go against the 3-series and G35- and in order to do this the engines will need more horses- as the Yanks sure love an engine with many horses, but if it can be a more stylish alternative then there is success right there. The new GTV/Spider also are important- sports cars go down well in California and Florida after all :D Of course the Kamal SUV is the key to Alfa Romeos success in the USA and I don't need to explain why.............

Originally posted by Jimster
Also noteworthy is that Peugeot's viechle quality is good- but lagging below the Japanese- but above most American makers...

Although I think you underestimate the quality of American cars, a new company lagging behind the Japanese in quality will not help Peugeot break into this market. Peugeot has a bad quality reputation in the US, due mostly to their second-class dealership network, which will be difficult to overcome. In order to compete, they will have to be within striking distance of Japanese quality...and that is where the American cars are.

Additionally, "minus the badge" is not going to help Peugeot become a luxury player in the US. TONS of marketing money must be invested in the US market to prime the public for Peugeot as a luxury car maker. The same problem happens with Alfa Romeo, although it's not placed in as much of an image deficit as the French brand.

You're very tough with Peugeot !
For teh range first :

- The 107 has no chances of course.... offff.. the Smart will be sold in NY and SF after all !!
- The 206 looks very cool and has good engines (RC/GTi, etc.) and the CC which is not very expensive (arround 20 K€ /24k$) and is a good alternative to the SLK.... in much less expensive !
- The 307 : the SW has got chances, why not after all, and the CC too fort he same reasons as teh 206 CC (even more as it's bigger). And fort he sedan, the 308 (replacing the 307) will be more classical (less high) and more sporty (in the Alfa 147 spirit).
- The 406 : look at the Coupé it would make big sales I think, at least the product is almost based upon the American market. The sedan is nice and sporty and the SW big and nice. Same thing for the future 407.
- The 607 : big car as the Americans like it. But it's missing a V8... though the future 607 could have one. And look at VW, the W8 is very recent and they sold a lot before.
- The 807 : an excellent competitor to the Odyssey, Trans Sport and Town&Country.

But it's missing an SUV, a good image and a dealership network.

As the Peugeots uqality is concerned, it's now very good, for example, the most reliable car in France in 2002 was the Xantia, the C Class in second and the 406 at the third place.
No problems of reliability today on Puegeots, only Renaults have problems because of a "too much" of electronics new systems (starting cards, dci, etc.) and an over production in their factories.
The buit quality is good, better than on most American cars (it doesn't mean that American cars are not well built), and even if it's not an Audi.... it's also not (any more !) the price ! ;)

Same thing for Alfa Romeo, 147, 156 and 166 have their chances. They have a + compared with Pug : the future SUV Kamal, but also a - : they don't have a van. For the GTV and the Spider we could compare it with the 406 Coupé and 307 CC (more GT, less sporty, I agree, but more recent).

Though, for the shortcomings of Pug in the late 80's, I totally agree. No V6 on the 405, too much expensive, built quality not better than American cars, old models (505 & 504). The 605 could have been launched.. but it was very expensive too not as the 607 which is (at least in Europe) in a good range of prices, as the rest of the Peugeot range.

Also, Peugeot will have to invest a lot if they want to re-enter the US market because of their lack of image (or worse, their bad image). But if they do well from this point of view, the Peugeots have at least as much chances as VW if they also succeed in controlling the prices.

Look : Daewoo, Kia, etc. entered the American market, so why not Peugeot and Alfa which are real makes (sorry for the Corean makers but their cars are not so exciting, cheap, that's true.).

Yes, the 107 has no chance in the US. The 206 wouldn't sell in the US, even if they were to bring in the 206CC...since it's more expensive than a Mazda Miata and much smaller than the similarly priced (and very popular) Chrysler Sebring Convertible. The 307/308 would be in the Ford Focus class at the price of a Mercedes-Benz C-Class coupe. The 406/407 is the smallest vehicle Peugeot that could be sold in the US, yet it would compete with the Acura TL...but the Pug is smaller and the TL is quite a high quality product (higher than the C-Class). Again, the 607's problem is that it's FWD in a RWD market. Once you get above $30k range, buyers lean more toward RWD in the US...and 240hp is becoming the minimum power for a family sedan (under $30k)....the 607 barely puts out 210hp. As for the 807, it's smaller than an American minivan...you could almost put an 807 inside of a Chrysler Town & Country, Honda Odyssey, or Ford Windstar. And the American minivans are priced less than the 807 would be.

Peugeot's quality has come a long way in the past 15 years...but it doesn't matter. What matters is PERCEIEVED quality...and Peugeot lacks that in the US. You can't compare Peugeot to Kia or Daewoo. Kia sells on price and a 10 year warranty. Daewoo sold on price. Peugeot's not planning on being a bargain brand...there's no money in it for any Western European manufacturer.

Volkswagen's advantage is that they've been available in the US since 1949. Volkswagen also had one of the best selling cars of the 1960s in the US. Volkswagen also produces about half of their US-market vehicles in Mexico (big cost advantage over the EU).

And, yes....Peugeot needs an SUV for the US.

Alfa Romeo has similar obsticles to overcome but atleast they have a rabid following....small, but rabid.

Originally posted by Hudson


Although I think you underestimate the quality of American cars, a new company lagging behind the Japanese in quality will not help Peugeot break into this market. Peugeot has a bad quality reputation in the US, due mostly to their second-class dealership network, which will be difficult to overcome. In order to compete, they will have to be within striking distance of Japanese quality...and that is where the American cars are.

Additionally, "minus the badge" is not going to help Peugeot become a luxury player in the US. TONS of marketing money must be invested in the US market to prime the public for Peugeot as a luxury car maker. The same problem happens with Alfa Romeo, although it's not placed in as much of an image deficit as the French brand.

The build quality of the American cars I have been in has not impressed me at all- the Ford Mustang is the worst culprit of this- I saw a Loose airbag trim and door trim on a brand new Cobra when I was checking one out. The Chevrolet Malibu is another culprit- I had one as a rental car when I last visited the states (The milage was about 10,000 miles- it was reasonably new to the fleet) the dash rattled and the rubbing strip on the drivers door had come loose- not a good look. The Dodge Viper that I drove- well lets just say the cheap dash almost melted in the sun, I had to give a mate a ride home after the engine in his Taurus shut down and then not much later the auto 'box packed up- the list goes on......But my impression of American build quality has not been a good one at all.

Alfa Romeo's Italian badge and handome looks are probably going to give it an advantage in the executive market- but a lot of marketing is going to be needed to shake off the old impressions of the badge. If Skoda can do it- then I'm sure Alfa Romeo can.;)

For the price of Peugeot, if it can be the same as in Europe I don't see the problem ! A 206 CC cost from 17 to 21 000 €.... a Sebring 36 000 € (I don't know the prices in the USA, but i guesse that the gap would still be big).
The 807 is as big inside as a Voyager !!!! My father is looking for replacing its Evasion and wants a big boot... and the Voyager is not bigger inside than the C8/807/Ulysse/Phédra. But it's bigger outside and that's not a quality at least in the European cities.
But two very important thing : first, I'm still considering that almost all French cars (in the same range, except maybe the C3) are better built than American ones (compare a Sebring with a 406, a Néon with a Mégane, a 607 with a Concorde, etc.).
And secondly, the French cars have a big big advantage versus all cars in the world (which has compensed for many people their shortcomings before the 90's), their excellent comfort/handling compromise. Except the last BMW (with many electronical helps), rare are the cars which can compete from this point of view. Italians have generally a good handling but the comfort is not their best quality ! German cars have either too hard suspensions, or too floopy suspensions... not good for the comfort and sometimes for the handling and driving precision.

Again, concerning the prices, at least in Europe (so why not in the USA ? if they can controll their operating costs, importating cars made in South America for example), French cars are (not for a long time) competitive.

Jim : exactly, Skoda is going to succeed in changing its image. So Peugeot and Alfa Romeo can easily do it also, averall because their cars are not bad (a Skoda of the 80's is not an Alfa or a Pug of the 80's !!).

The 607 has "only" a V6 210hp in its higher version, but let's compare with a Town Car for example which has indeed bigger engines... The performances won't be much better I thing because the Lincoln is very heavy, its engine is not designed for a low consumption and the best performances, etc. So why having 320hp if they do the same work as 210hp ? ;)

Same thing as Jim for the quality of American cars, I have driven a Camaro, it handles nothing and it's made with disposable plastic. The Voyager is not better (well the new one is quite well buit I must conceed). I won't speak about a Neon. The Ford Focus handles well but inside it's not very well built.

Though I'm not saying that American cars are not good, I would be wrong. They have an huge personnality and are very various. You can get extreme cars. But I don't think that Americans can critisize French cars as long as they have big qualities also, not the same maybe ;)

Your sample of American products can hardly be termed broad. The Mustang (same with the Camaro) is not one of the highest quality products on the market...and that's not its selling point. I don't think Peugeot or Alfa Romeo plan on offering a V8-powered 260-300hp rear-wheel drive coupe for $26k in the US.

A 10,000 mile Malibu is hardly a relatively new fleet vehicle...and rental cars cannot give you a sample of how actual customer cars work because not many people treat rentals like their own. Since I test cars as part of my job, I use the actual mileage of the vehicle an multiply it by 10 to get a reasonable approximation of how the vehicle would fare in the real world. And the Viper? C'mon...that's never been about quality...it's always been about going fast, having style, and being basic.

Comparing reviving Skoda to reviving Alfa Romeo doesn't work either. American are not Europeans....for good or bad. Americans need more time and more incentive to forgive past bad products. Hyundai revived their sales in the US with low prices and a 10-year warranty. As I said before, Alfa Romeo (as with Peugeot) is not going to compete on price in the US...and I don't think Fiat could afford a 10-year warranty on Alfas.

Comparing the 206CC to the Sebring Convertible, you have to turn the tables a bit. If the Pug costs €17-21k and the Chrysler sells for €36k in Europe, in the US it would be $25k for the 206CC which is where the Chrysler sells in the US.

Unless you're comparing the 807 to the standard Voyager, they aren't anywhere near in size. The minivan market in the US can best be shown in the long-wheelbase GRAND Voyager which can hold a 4ftx8ft sheet of plywood in the back with the tailgate close and all seats removed (a standard test of minivans in the US). The 807 cannot do this.

Peugeot would not position the 607 at the Town Car buyer. NOBODY wants to target the Town Car buyer, not even Lincoln. The Town Car buyer is OLD, car companies want youth. If Peugeot wants to re-enter the US market competitively, they'll have to target Lexus or Acura. Even Nissan's Maxima has a 3.5L 260hp V6 as its ONLY powerplant. Heck, the more mundane Nissan Altima has 240hp as does the Honda Accord. A Town Car isn't about power...it's about size and soft ride...two things that Peugeot can't (or doesn't want to) compete with. And what's the torque on that gas-powered Pug as compared to the V8 Lincoln?

You keep comparing items on these vehicles that are not the main focus of them. Minivans are all about safety and interior space...and more and more about power (V6 is a must...200+hp is becoming the norm). If you want to bring Peugeot and Alfa Romeo to the US, you need to focus on Lexus and Acura as a starting point. Using the quality of a Chevrolet Malibu rental car (an $18,000 car) or a Ford Taurus (a $20,000 car) or a Mustang (a $26,000, 260hp V8-powered coupe) as a benchmark isn't going to work. The PSA and Fiat have no plans to enter these markets in the US...and couldn't compete if they did.

I won't continue this uproar because my English touch its limits (for long). But I'd only tell this : Alfa Romeo is going to re enter the American market, that's official, for sure before 2010.
For Peugeot and Citroën, that's less sure but you can notive that all their new cars are considering the americans norms (security, pollution) so they could be (technically) sold in the USA.

For the price, of course, it has to be hardly structured.

I took the example of the Town car, I could have taken the 300M.

Originally posted by Stefanel1
...I took the example of the Town car, I could have taken the 300M.

Yes, you could have. Perhaps you should have. The 300M is a 250hp sedan priced at around $30k in the US. In addition to it having more interior space than the 607, it has more power (with only a 3.5L engine) and would be thousands less expensive. They sell more 300Ms in the US than Peugeot ever sold in one year in this country.

yes- given the choice I would have a Chrysler 300M before a Peugeot- but I didn't- although Mitsubishi of Australia are looking at bringing the 300M and converting it to RHD and sell them in Australia and New Zealand- too little too late for me though.


Chrysler/Dodge is the only US brand that I give any interest- and even then only some of them. Just one question- why do Chrysler sell the LHS AND the 300M- the cars are pretty much priced the same, have the same engines- so why bother with two of them???? No wonder thier coffers are in trouble:rolleyes:

More interior space ?.... I don't care, the 607 is big enough inside ! and if it's not enough, the Vel Satis is very big inside, more than your 300M.
"250hp for only 3.5l" .... why "only" ?!!! 71hp/l, that's not impressive.

"They sell more 300Ms in the US than Peugeot ever sold in one year in this country" : interesting !we've already said that Peugeot didn't sell many cars in the USA because of many shortcomings. But I think they won't do the same things when they'll come back, and they'll I'm sure of it, rendez-vous in 2009 ! ;)

The 300M is less expensive than the 607... The Euro is very expensive today, and the Dollar cheap so the price is differnt aloso for that.
More, the 607 is not more expensive in Europe, the 300M 2.7 204hp costs here 38 000 €, same price for the 607 V6 210hp with a better engine, a better built quality, better performances and a better comfort/handling compromise. I don't know why you would choose the Chrysler... at least in Europe, and THERE is the uproar : a 607 is a far much better choice in Europe, and the 300M would be a better choice in the USA.
Because :
- The 607 would be more expensive in the US (taxes, transport, etc.)
- The 607 has qualities which does'nt interest Americans : handling mainly.
But the 300M doesn't sell in Europe because :
- The handling is very bad, or at least you have to drive very smooth, unpossible in Europe
- It's too big and not agile (problems on Europeans roads and towns)
- The consumption is too high (the 607 is mainly sold in HDI (diesel)
- It doesn't sell well on the second hand market

However, I don't know why you're trying to kill Peugeot...

Originally posted by Stefanel1
More interior space ?.... I don't care, the 607 is big enough inside ! and if it's not enough, the Vel Satis is very big inside, more than your 300M.
"250hp for only 3.5l" .... why "only" ?!!! 71hp/l, that's not impressive.

"They sell more 300Ms in the US than Peugeot ever sold in one year in this country" : interesting !we've already said that Peugeot didn't sell many cars in the USA because of many shortcomings. But I think they won't do the same things when they'll come back, and they'll I'm sure of it, rendez-vous in 2009 ! ;)

The 300M is less expensive than the 607... The Euro is very expensive today, and the Dollar cheap so the price is differnt aloso for that.
More, the 607 is not more expensive in Europe, the 300M 2.7 204hp costs here 38 000 €, same price for the 607 V6 210hp with a better engine, a better built quality, better performances and a better comfort/handling compromise. I don't know why you would choose the Chrysler... at least in Europe, and THERE is the uproar : a 607 is a far much better choice in Europe, and the 300M would be a better choice in the USA.
Because :
- The 607 would be more expensive in the US (taxes, transport, etc.)
- The 607 has qualities which does'nt interest Americans : handling mainly.
But the 300M doesn't sell in Europe because :
- The handling is very bad, or at least you have to drive very smooth, unpossible in Europe
- It's too big and not agile (problems on Europeans roads and towns)
- The consumption is too high (the 607 is mainly sold in HDI (diesel)
- It doesn't sell well on the second hand market

However, I don't know why you're trying to kill Peugeot...


I wouldn't call the handling of a 300M bad- definitely not up to the 6O7's standards- but better than cars like the Lincoln Continental (So bad they killed it) or Cadillac Seville (So bad that they should kill it)

Depreciation is a problem for both the 300M and 6O7- the Germans lose value much slower than both the afore mentioned cars- in the European market the 300M does lose out though in depriciation here in Italy (http://vip.motori.msn.it/ResearchCentre/NewCars/browser.asp?screen=select&category=select_version&translated_make=Peugeot&make=PEUGEOT&model=607&localmodel=607&translated_model=607) the 6O7 V6 costs the same as the 300M 3.5 so it is a fair comparision


So while the 6O7 is a superior car to the 300M the 300M is more suited to American needs- and it's be a waste of time for most European brands to bother with the US

Originally posted by Jimster
...but better than cars like the Lincoln Continental (So bad they killed it) or Cadillac Seville (So bad that they should kill it)

You folks really don't understand the reason there are different cars in the world. While the Seville doesn't handle all that bad (not as good as, say, the 300M, but still not bad), it's not supposed to be a Ferrari. The Continental was designed to ride smoothly, not run in a slolom. Production of the Continental did not end because of its handling...because the Continental handled very much the way its buyers wanted it to. The Continental was replaced by the LS.

The Chrysler 300M is 153mm longer than the 607...that doesn't sound like a huge difference to me. It's shorter than a 7-Series and yet they're European!

The LHS (no longer in production) and the 300M were sold side by side because they catered to two different markets. The LHS was a soft luxury sedan while the 300M was a shorter (by 187mm) sports sedan. The 300M actually handles fairly well for a front-drive large sedan.

And lastly, the 300M isn't being considered for export to Australia chiefly because it ends production in just a few months.

I don't want Peugeot to die. I'm all for competition...but Peugeot will have a very tough time re-entering the US market. I think I've made it clear the obstacles that PSA had to overcome before making Peugeot a success in the US. It will be very tough.

Peugeots are not exactly cars made for Americans, as American cars are not made for Europeans. Though, in each continent, you can find some people who will buy these cars. In Paris, I see sometimes some Suburban or enormous Americans SUV because it's a way to be different but it's awfull to drive with that in Paris (or in Roma, Berlin, London, Prague, etc.).
And considering the 16cm of the 300M, yes it makes a difference when you have to park ! For example, my previous Delta was 38cm smaller than my current car and many parking places are forbiden to me when I go to Paris three or 4 times a week ! Plus, the 607 is not so tiny and the 7 Séries is an other category. Compare the 300 with the 5 Séries. ;)

But indeed, it'll be difficult for peugeot and Alfa to re enter the American Market... but if they do well and invest enough, they can !

Originally posted by Stefanel1
Peugeots are not exactly cars made for Americans...

This is your best argument AGAINST Peugeot returning to the US. BMWs are the same on both sides of the pond and sell well. Same with Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, Jaguar, and Ferrari, among others. Even tiny Morgan sells well in the US and nobody can say they were "made for Americans." Since there are over a quarter of a billion Americans, there are many types of "Americans." Having said that, Peugeot couldn't find 10,000 buyers a year for their cars in the US before they left. Same with Alfa Romeo.

These are two "mainstream" brands, unlike Porsche or Ferrari, and need volume in order to survive. Neither Alfa Romeo or Peugeot can compete head-to-head with BMW or Mercedes-Benz (or Lexus, for that matter), which means they need lower prices than that. If they want to survive, they need to compete with Acura or high-end Nissan (Maxima/Altima) and Toyota (Camry/Avalon) models. Which will require extremely high quality levels (especially if they need to overcome their heritage), excellent pricing (156/407 around $25-30k, 166/607 in the high $30k range, SUVs in the high$30k range), and even better service. Just selling on the Peugeot (or Alfa Romeo) name is not going to work.

Wow, this thread has been somewhat interesting and somewhat frustrating. After reading through it all, I felt the need to join.

As an American (and a Brit dual citizen by birth), I have always bought and owned odd cars, as has my family. I may be one of the few Americans to have had both a Peugeot AND an Alfa Romeo in the family (Dad still has his beloved 504, and I loved my GTV6 despite the problems keeping it running). I currently own the almost unknown W8, and in a wagon form, no less.

First of all, without question the reason both Peugeot AND Alfa Romeo departed the US market was due to miserable quality control and repair records. They were repeatedly at the very bottom of every survey in the US, and even press vehicles were known to break down, leak oil, and have interior trim bits fall off during test drives. Both makes have certainly come a long way, with Peugeot really tightened up and looking very strong in the European market with fresh designs and low prices, while Alfa has come back with much nicer and richer interiors, materials, and especially design.

As far as coming back to the US, they will have some hurdles to cross. The previous reputation will haunt them, and they will both have to prove worthy of a return to market here. The best way to do that is price. Some have noted VW's sales here. Well in 1991-1994, VW and Audi were within a thread of their life here, and were considering pulling off the market...joining Renault, Alfa, and Peugeot. It seemed there was no longer a market for any European vehicles other than MB and BMW. Porsche was able to stay alive because of their immensely low volume and enthusiast following. VW's comeback trail was based on a complete design makeover for every model, liberal parts-bin sharing with Audi, incredible material and build quality especially in the interiors, and strong pricing which put their models in the same price brackets as Japanese competition. By touting their European design and quality at a Japanese price, they were able to bring themselves out of the fire. But VW also sacrificed thousands of dollars of profit per vehicle...the net/retail margins on an A4 Jetta or B5 Passat were under $2,000, often yielding less than $1,000 profit per vehicle...versus a Toyota Camry or Nissan Altima with net/retail margins of nearly $3,400. VW knew they had to make sacrifices to develop their reputation anew. In the past few years, prices of VW vehicles have crept up every year.

Peugeot would have to be willing to price themselves at or below similar size and powered Japanese competition to rebuild their reputation. Despite any inherent goodness to their vehicles, Peugeot is not a mid-luxury manufacturer in the minds of Americans. In the 1980s and 90s, Americans were not willing to buy near-$40,000 505STI's. They think of Peugeot as a European economy car maker. This is not all bad - VW is thought of the same way. But it does mean they will have trouble breaking out of that mold...VW has inched their cars up to the $30,000 range at the turn of the millenium; then they tried the W8 to push themselves into the $35-$37K market with Acura and BMW...this has been a very hard market for VW to break into, and they are having trouble moving even 5,000 W8s despite it being an excellent vehicle (and despite the other 8-cylinder AWD competition being above the $50K mark). If Peugeot comes back to the US market as a cheap Euro alternative to Corollas, Civics, and Golfs, they could develop a following after a few years - but will never be a volume player like they are in Europe.

As far as Alfa is concerned, they have the advantage of a sporty moniker that many Americans remember. And those that do not remember may still be drawn to the Italian name, since the only Italian cars Americans get to see on the roads around here are Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Maserati. They can pass their cars off for more money than Peugeot, because their name and their origins have clout in the States already. Even when their quality was seriously lagging, the cars they were marketing here were sporty, so that is the last image Americans may have in their minds. The other advantage is their current designs. Right now, Alfa is one of the leaders in design, with Audi/VW and the revived Mercedes Benz. Because of the sportiness and stance of their vehicles, and the comparison to other great Italian sports cars, Alfa will have a much easier time moving their vehicles at higher prices.

The 147 could easily be marketed in the low to mid-$20K region, as a GTI alternative, and the GTA version could sell for $32K or more...as a stylish competitor to the VW R32, Subaru WRX STI, and Evo VIII. The 156GTA would certainly be accepted as a BMW 3-series or Lexus IS competitor, which means they could market the vehicle in the mid-to-upper $30s, or even $40K, and probably still succeed. Their key will not necessarily be the prices; Americans will accept them in higher price ranges; it will be initial quality. If a batch of cars comes over with a problem or a recall, or they have more than a few breakdowns...if a magazine testing one has a problem with it, that may well be the death knell for the marque's return no matter how good or stylish they are. They will be held up to a much higher scrutiny than existing marques, precisely BECAUSE they left the market previously based on quality problems.

I for one look forward to the return of both marques...and I wish we could see Citroen, Skoda, Seat, Lancia, and more come back to our roads.

as far as the initial question for this thread...could a Leon Cupra R be imported here? Yes, but not likely by a US citizen. A European who moves to the states could have his car certified for use in America with conversions to the headlights, addition of sidemarker color regulations, and after passing emissions testing. Crashing a model is not necessary for individual import...only for sale of a new model on our shores. Bumper regulations are one of the primary reasons cars are turned down for import...US requires a 5-MPH barrier resistance, whereas Europe requires only 2.5MPH. Despite European cars in general being much safer than American or Japanese vehicles, it is usually the small issues which create too large a barrier to be worth it for an importer - the bumpers, headlights, taillights, and sidemarkers usually have to be altered or changed, and CHMSLs have to be added if not already existing.

I have seen a Leon Cupra here in Florida. I have also seen an Audi S3, and a Peugeot 207, as well as several RHD Skylines. Importing these cars is possible. However, I don't think a US citizen would be allowed to simply order a non-imported European car and have it imported here after conversions. The S3 is owned by a Swiss student at Univ of Miami. The Peugeot is owned by a Scandinavian employee of Royal Caribbean International in Miami. The Skylines were converted by a special importer I think out of New Jersey who only imports those vehicles, and charges an enormous premium for them.

I think Mexico is your best shot...they get many of the fun cars we don't get here, and in Texas and California you can often see Mexicans coming across the border to visit the states driving Ford Ka's, Seats, Mexican Beetles, VW Polos, and more.

Good luck...and if you figure out a way, let us know! I'd love to find a way to get an old Renault A110 over here!

Originally posted by zackiedawg
...as far as the initial question for this thread...could a Leon Cupra R be imported here? Yes, but not likely by a US citizen. A European who moves to the states could have his car certified for use in America with conversions to the headlights, addition of sidemarker color regulations, and after passing emissions testing. Crashing a model is not necessary for individual import...only for sale of a new model on our shores. Bumper regulations are one of the primary reasons cars are turned down for import...US requires a 5-MPH barrier resistance, whereas Europe requires only 2.5MPH. Despite European cars in general being much safer than American or Japanese vehicles, it is usually the small issues which create too large a barrier to be worth it for an importer - the bumpers, headlights, taillights, and sidemarkers usually have to be altered or changed, and CHMSLs have to be added if not already existing.

You had me (mostly) until this point.

Firstly, American bumper regulations are 2.5mph, not 5.

Secondly, there would be no preference to someone migrating to the US as opposed to an existing US citizen. In BOTH cases, the same rules apply. In years past (more than 20 years ago), an individual could import a vehicle that was not built to US specs, but they were only allowed to import ONE vehicle in their lifetime. This allowed for new citizens and soldiers to bring in foreign cars. This rule was abolished in the 1980s. In the late 1990s (or around 2000), the certification rules were changed so that an individual could import a special car under "Show and Display" status. To meet this requirement, the car had to be designed as having some historical or technological significance...which the Cupra does not.

I can't vouch for the foreign cars you've seen in Florida, but importing an Audi S3, Peugeot 207, or Cupra isn't as simple as having it imported into Mexico and transferring ownership to an American. Besides the obvious customs and registration problems, try insuring it. Driving a car around the US is possible as long as the car is registered to a foreign address and use in the US is limited to a specific length of time (one year, I believe). Heck, I've even driven a pair of Subaru Impreza WRXs back in the mid 1990s...they had to be destroyed at the end of their year (cheaper than exporting them).

Nissan Skylines have beem converted by an importer in California, who is listed as the manufacturer and must follow the same certifications as an manufacturer. Similar rules have applied to the Ferrar 288GTOs and McLaren F1s that have trickled into the US.

Originally posted by Hudson
Firstly, American bumper regulations are 2.5mph, not 5.

OK...I thought I remembered it being 5MPH...you may know better than me!


Secondly, there would be no preference to someone migrating to the US as opposed to an existing US citizen. In BOTH cases, the same rules apply...In the late 1990s (or around 2000), the certification rules were changed so that an individual could import a special car under "Show and Display" status. To meet this requirement, the car had to be designed as having some historical or technological significance...which the Cupra does not.

I can't vouch for the foreign cars you've seen in Florida, but importing an Audi S3, Peugeot 207, or Cupra isn't as simple as having it imported into Mexico and transferring ownership to an American. Besides the obvious customs and registration problems, try insuring it. Driving a car around the US is possible as long as the car is registered to a foreign address and use in the US is limited to a specific length of time (one year, I believe). Heck, I've even driven a pair of Subaru Impreza WRXs back in the mid 1990s...they had to be destroyed at the end of their year (cheaper than exporting them).

I based my statement only on personal observation, not fact. I know several foreigners that seem to have managed to get their cars into the United States, but I do not know any Americans including those who have lived or traveled abroad, who have been able to get European-market-exclusive vehicles into the US. The man with the S3 I know from his attendance at my Get Together which I host for VWs and Audis...he has shown up with the car at our event. Through a friend that works at Royal Caribbean's office in Miami, I have heard about and seen pictures of his Peugeot in Miami...I am not sure as to HOW they got them here or how much trouble it was, but I know they succeeded in getting them. No US citizens I've yet met have been able to (My family had a Saab 9000 Turbo grey-marketed in 1984, before its US debut, after seeing the car in Sweden...it wasn't very hard to do back then).


Nissan Skylines have beem converted by an importer in California, who is listed as the manufacturer and must follow the same certifications as an manufacturer. Similar rules have applied to the Ferrar 288GTOs and McLaren F1s that have trickled into the US.

Yes, as I noted, the Skylines down here were indeed converted by an importer...I thought I remembered New Jersey...but I may have mixed it up with the importer that used to convert the MB G-Wagens inthe early to mid 90s. California sounds believable. I know the two Skylines I have seen are owned by extremely rich kids who could get anything they want. One of them has a RHD Honda Prelude as well, which he runs around town in full Japan-spec (probably initially converted, then he converted it back after the car was here)...including all Japanese markings inside. I have also been seeing several RHD Minis (the original) around South Beach, Miami.

Anyway...thanks for the extra info...I definately agree that it is not easy to get a car into the states which is not certified for sale here in any circumstance...I just wanted to note that it is somehow possible based on the occasional Euro-exclusive or Japan-spec car I have seen around here (By the way, there is a yellow Lotus Elise running about in Palm Beach, RHD. I have no idea how he got that here either...but I have seen it several times!). You may want to check for import agents or angencies in Florida, because alot of people seem to have the hook-up for imported cars!

By the way, the importer of the Mercedes-Benz Gelandewagen was Europa of New Mexico.

Peugeot 207 ?.... it'll be sold in 2005 :D ;) isn't it a 206 or a 307 ?

Originally posted by Stefanel1
Peugeot 207 ?.... it'll be sold in 2005 :D ;) isn't it a 206 or a 307 ?

OOps...typo! It is the 206...the little 2 door hatchback one. :smile:

ok ;)
Which model ? 2.0 S16/GTi ? RC 180 ? Hdi ? or a more classical (1.4, 1.6 ?)

For that, I'll have to ask my buddy Mike. He works with the guy down in Miami, so he sees the car every day. The guy's name is Gustav...he was an engineer for the cruise ships for years, and is now a service technician for them at the headquarters in Miami. He moved to Miami about 1 1/2 years ago when he got the post, and apparently found a way to bring his Pug with him!

I'll ask Mike the next time I see him, and see if I can get any details about the Peugeot. I only remember from the picture that it was Silver, and reminded me of Marcus Gronholm's WRC car without all the paint and bodywork!

ok, thanks ! ;)

Its would be certainly great to import Seats to USA trough VW dealers. The bad thing is that they probably won´t, since Seat is a VW in the basics, they use the exact same engines from VW and Audi and some Audi A3 interiors on the Leon and Cupra, the only thing that changes is the design, very disctintive, elegant and sporty all in one, I dont have a problem since they share so much with VW, group where they belong, that gives them more reliability, is just I don´t thinkg VW America would like to bring those. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Euro19
Its would be certainly great to import Seats to USA trough VW dealers. The bad thing is that they probably won´t, since Seat is a VW in the basics, they use the exact same engines from VW and Audi and some Audi A3 interiors on the Leon and Cupra, the only thing that changes is the design, very disctintive, elegant and sporty all in one, I dont have a problem since they share so much with VW, group where they belong, that gives them more reliability, is just I don´t thinkg VW America would like to bring those. :rolleyes:

Off Topic indeed- but care to explain what heppened to your 156???

I wanted to ask you the sema question : did you replace the 156 by the Primera ??!!!!

yeah indeed. 3 months ago I had a little accident with the Alfa :bloated: well not so little, after the insurance payed for repairing I had to sell it, I think a car is never the same after a crash like this, and also bad luck and come on I wasn´t gonna buy the same car model, I finally decided to try the beautifull Primera 4dr investing a bit more, is so comfortable, great interior, and well the Lanos is my ¨project¨ car, I´ll post some pics later :tongue:
thanx:frown:

A crash with your Alfa :( sorry ! I understand that you don't want to remember this when you'll drive again your car. So are you satisfacted with this new Nissan ?

I have a Seat Leon Cupra R, I live in Mexico City
The emissions regulations in Mexico City are as stringent as the ones in California, so I’m sure the problem for not having the car is not
the emissions issue, as the engine in the Cupra is really an Audi engine, it's the same engine the Audi S3 has (Not this year, as they have 15 more Hp on the S3)
I have raced an Audi S3, and because the four motion mechanism, which makes the car heavier, and because it has to move two more differentials than Mine, I was a little bit quicker.
Seat has just started operations in Mexico, and its s big competition to Volkswagen ( Its from the same family... VW-Audi), and as VW doesn’t have extraordinary sales in the US, with SEAT I think the competition would be unhealthy, as they aim to the same market.
Also remember that the cars from Europe have very high import taxes in the US.
Many of the Volkswagen you see in the US are produced in Mexico (Jetta, Golf, all the Beetles!!), and because of NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) they have a special tax regime (considerably low). Seats are produced in Spain, and other European countries only, so they wont have the special tax regime.
I’m sure the problem is not emissions or any other technical regulation, The real problem is costs ( Taxes for an example).
By the way the car is fantastic, incredibly fast and agile, and I mean really fast, and fun too drive.

By the way in the explanation of the characteristics of the CUPRA R, you forgot to mention that besides TCS, ESP, etc, it has HBA. (Emergency Brake Control)

The Cupra would have to be engineered for US safety regulations in order to be imported. Additionally, the emissions controls on any car needs to be certified by the US EPA to be sold in the US, even if the Mexican-market version may be just as clean. There are a number of variables that must be met, in addition to just hitting certain emissions levels, before a car is certified for the US.

By the way, the Golf is no longer produced in Mexico.

By the way

VolksWagen produces in Mexico the following cars:
Jetta, Beetle, Beetle Cabrio and GOLF CABRIO .

As said in one of my posts, Seats are produced in Europe, and the Cupras only in Spain, which makes things worse, due that in Mexico some companies, like Ford, have their emissions lab certified by EPA, so if the cars are produced by them and verified in their own labs, they are automatically certified by EPA. I agree with you in the safety standards, that have to be verified in the US, and I say Verified not necessarily engineered to Us Specs, as European specs in some issues are higher than US specs.

The Leon is a nice car. I post a pic here, (that's not a Cupra ;) )

Originally posted by RALMADA
As said in one of my posts, Seats are produced in Europe, and the Cupras only in Spain, which makes things worse, due that in Mexico some companies, like Ford, have their emissions lab certified by EPA, so if the cars are produced by them and verified in their own labs, they are automatically certified by EPA. I agree with you in the safety standards, that have to be verified in the US, and I say Verified not necessarily engineered to Us Specs, as European specs in some issues are higher than US specs.

Just because a lab is certified by the EPA doesn't mean that cars tested there are US-ready. Each country has its own level of emission controls. Mexican market cars are not necessarily certified for US sale, even if they've been tested by an "emissions lab certified by EPA."

Yes...some European specs are different (in some cases better) than the US specs, but the only thing that matters is passing NHTSA tests. Airbags, side impact door beams, lights, glass...all have to meet NHTSA specs.

Originally posted by RALMADA
By the way

VolksWagen produces in Mexico the following cars:
Jetta, Beetle, Beetle Cabrio and GOLF CABRIO .

The Golf Cabrio has been out of production in Mexico for nearly a year. The Volkswagen plant in Mexico also produces the OLD "Beetle" for a few more weeks.

Stefanel1:
This is my Saet Leon Cupra R, as tou can see from the exterior, there are many differences, including the small right mirror, which is smaller than the left one, the front spoiler, the exhaust pipe, a larger spoiler which is above the rear windshield, alloys, vented front and rear (also vented!) disc brakes.

Hope you like it

Another one

Another view

Last one

Very nice car ;)

For the right mirror, isn't it the same on all Leons ? it exists on VWs and Audis.... and I don't see the utility of that ! ;)

For what I have seen, this is the only car with a much smaller right mirror, the all the other versions of the Leon (except CUPRA R), have both mirrors of the same size.
I suppose that its for aerodynamically reasons. As for Volkswagen, I haven't seen this strange right mirror difference, but I have sped the Cupra up to 210Km/hr (130miles/hr), and the car just sticks to the ground, giving you a very steady feeling. Perhaps one of the points I wanted on this car was the sunroof, but this option isn’t available on CUPRA R version.
I have a small mpg file of my brothers leon really burning tire, if you’re

210km/h... on an highway ? if it's on an highway, I hope that you car sticks to the ground ;) I did 178km/h with a Twingo... :D But a Cupra is much bigger and less for the cities.
For the mirror, Mercedes launched the "fashion" on the E Class (1986). That was not very interesting.
For the sunroof, that's a good option, but think that without it you've a little better performances and your car is less heavy ! ;)