Lower intake gasket leak Blackstone Labs

Well I sent my oil sample in on Monday and got a call from Blackstone Labs. (Thanks Wiswin) They confirmed what I had suspected anti freeze in the oil. I have been loosing small amounts for ahwile. I also am having P0420 code, low catalytic efficency bank 1. The antifreeze probably damaged the converter. Wiswin I would like to compare your results from Blackstone and see how bad yours was. Both are 96 3.8s with similar mileage. Great people. They called and explained the report and I explained to them what I thought the problem was. He recommended changing the oil every 1000 to 2000 miles until I fix the problem. Im not to worried about doing the job and I have looked over most posts but im wondering if there are any suggestions from anyone that might make it easier. Things ive gleaned from posts.

Correct size gaskets 3mm if not machined from Ford.

Special tool to remove clip on the u shaped coolant line quick connect.

Correct torque specification.

Thread sealant on bolts. Any loctite?

Replace the oil and antifreeze. Change oil again after about 500 miles.

I already have cleaned the egr ports. I will replace the thermostat and the radiator hoses as well as the bypass hose. What do you think about the temperature sensor? The vacume lines looked good I replaced the pre molded one on top of the upper intake.

Also is it possible my converter is not bad. Maybe after the leak is fixed it wont be burning antifreeze anymore and the code will clear. Any thoughts?

Anything I have missed or recommended preventative fixes while I have it apart would be appreciated. Thanks

I would write down your VIN and give it to them at the Dealership when you buy your gaskets.
Just to be sure to get the right stuff.
I would use a beam type of torque wrench and not the "clicker" type.
You are dealing with INCH pounds......not ft pounds.
Several people have broken a lower intake manifold bolt......including me.
In my case, the brand new "clicker" torque wrench did not click......although it did work on a solid bolt.
I think that in my case, the thread sealer caused the bolt to come up to tension very gradually......or something like that.....but you should not have a problem if you use a beam type torque wrench.
I would go toward the lower end of the torque specification range, as the thread sealer will cause you to get a slightly lower reading (the bolt will actually be tighter than indicated....in terms of downward force relative to the turning torque)

Also....for the little dap of sealant at the ends of the "end seals", make sure to use ONLY "sensor safe" sealant.

I have my original temperature sensors, and they are fine.
I did wonder about the one for the PCM....but with my Scantool reader connected to the OBDII port.....I have found that it is very stable.
So I would not worry about the sensors.

Get the gaskets from FORD.

Also, as indicated, dry fit the lower intake manifold gaskets.
Do NOT put any other sealer or such onto the seating surfaces.
Also.....do not use any metal tools (including razer blade) to clean the Head or lower intake manifold surfaces where the gaskets seat......use plastic / nylon or wood.
FORD has indicated that metal tooling can leave small nicks and scratches in the soft aluminium surfaces....which will lead to leakage.
The gaskets will stay in place, as there are small pins at the corners of the gaskets that sit in little holes in the head......I have shown this in my pictures.
Follow the correct orientation as printed on the gaskets.
It will look like you are blocking a coolant passage or so with the new gaskets.....but have faith that FORD knows what they are doing......they will work just fine.

I did not disconnect the fuel rail, as I was able to lift it aside and suspend it just enough out of the way.
Of course, you must release the fuel pressure before lifting the fuel rail.
Before lifting the injectors up out of the head (yes, they are mounted in the head at least for '96 and newer), spray cleaner to flush the dirt and grit that has accumulated around each injector....that is a dirt trap around each injector....and that grit is just waiting to drop down inside the head.

I would spray some cleaner up inside the "cap" over the spray end of the fuel injectors to flush the stuff out of there.
And you can put a small amount of oil onto the "O" ring gaskets on the injectors to aid in installation.

It will take some time to burp the air from the system.....and you will need to watch the temperature gauge and shut off the engine if it gets up toward Hot.....let cool and run again.....

My oil analysis results were, listed as mine, then universal average for our motor

Aluminum 5 4
Chromium 1 1
Iron 17 21
Copper 3 5
Lead 3 7
Tin 1 1
Molybdenium 70 58 (this is a ingredient in many motor oils, and I use one with high moly)
Nickel 0 1
Manganese 0 2
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 7 2 (did read 28 the year before) a indication of coolant
Boron 125 49
Silicon 20 17
Sodium 40 10 (was 77 the year before) a indication of coolant
Calcium 2670 1973
Magnesium 28 204
Phosphorus 656 718
Zinc 845 862
Barium 0 1

Properties my value, should be

SUS Viscosity 61.8 55-62
Flashpoint 390 >365
Fuel <0.5% <2.0%
Antifreeze ? 0% (was 0.15% a year ago)
Water 0.0 <0.1%
Insolubles 0.3% <0.6%

Oil used was Mobil 1 5W-30 with 4000 miles on it.
I listed some readings from a year ago....same kind of oil.....5000 miles on it.
I have not had a test done since the lower intake manifold job.
No coolant usage.
Blackstone labs has an explanation of each element, and where it can come from, on their website.

Hi,

Good luck with the job. Not a bad one and a chance to perform some additional maintenance. My '96 was at 144K when I sent off to Blackstone. My antifreeze reading was at .24% and metals were consistent with top end wear primarily. I posted my experience here too:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=642149&highlight=lower+intake+manifold+gaskets

I did not change the bypass tube though that is probably a fine plan. I have yet to re-check my oil as I was going to wait for the second normal change and we are low mileage so I'm not there yet.

Best of luck

Wiswin, Busboy Thanks for your replys. My lab results are not near as good as yours Wiswin. They are as follows.

Aluminum 22 4
Chromium 5 1
Iron 225 20
Copper 9 5
Lead 22 7
Tin 2 1
Molybdenium 71 62 (Whatever oil is at the quick change places Penzoil?
Nickel 4 1
Manganese 1 2
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 23 2
Boron 28 46
Silicon 47 16
Sodium 70 70
Calcium 2366 1966
Magnesium 26 170
Phosphorus 784 702
Zinc 943 842
Barium 13 1

Properties my value, should be

SUS Viscosity 53.1
Flashpoint 425 >365
Fuel <0.5% <2.0%
Antifreeze Positive
Water 0.0 <0.1%
Insolubles 0.5% <0.6%

Results performed on 96 Windstar 3.8 with 186,500 miles.
Oil changes every 3,000 miles.
First Owner Bought new
Burns maybe 1/2 quart oil every oil change.

Busboy I see you used Permatex black silicone where as Wiswin said tsb recommends against. If I read that right? With that small amount should it really make a difference?

Did either of you take the manifold out completely and have it cleaned? I read busboy you scraped the junk out. I may remove all together and send it out. I used to do it when I rebuilt engines in muscle cars when I was a kid.

Questions

Recomended antifreeze
What do you think about changing the clips for the IMRCS?
Wiswin why did you change the coolant crossover tube and the thermostat housing?
Busboy Is that the correct part number for the clip and O rings for the quick connect on heater hose?

I want to get everthing together ahead of time no surprises.

Hey Thanks for all the information it sure makes things alot easier.

I put the lower intake manifold out on shop towels and cleand it up.
I bought the cross over pipe to have in case I needed it.
My original was still fine, but I replaced it anyhow.
I would certainly replace that small "U" hose on the end that connects to the pipe from the water pump.

The FORD recommended antifreeze is "traditional" green.
You might have to look around for it.
I used G-05 (Zerex) in mine....which is getting easier to find than it was.
I read that Autozone is starting to carry it again.
I got mine at Car Quest.
It is also available at the dealership as their "Premium Gold"
I would go with the short life change cycle (max of 2 years) for the first change.
It is no problem for the G-05 to be mixed with the green, but the resulting mix is not long life.
Use steam distilled water to mix with the coolant concentrate.

The issue with nylon clips for the IMRC is with the '99 and newer.
I have had no issue with mine.

Hi
I checked my receipt and the number is correct for the o-ring and snap assembly. The packaging on the permatex Black sealant said it complied with the Ford spec. My '96 manual states "Apply a bead of silicone rubber D6AZ-19562-BA, or equivalent meeting Ford spec ESB-M4G92-A." As I recall, that spec was specifically noted on the Permatex Black. I have had no problems as far as I know.
I did not send out my lower manifold, I just cleaned it myself with spirits, carb cleaner and a "synthetic wire" brush.
I did manage to break my nylon clips on the IMRC's - I disconnected them for the cleaning process, and they were so brittle they just crumbled. If you are ordering anything from y2kford, the part number is: F5RZ9F955AB and they sell them for $4.56 vs. $6.33 list. Put the clip into the hole first, then push the arm of the IMRC into it. Do be very careful with the IMRC's. I would recommend you do not force the actuator arm to the retracted position or move it around much. I am fairly certain that I ruptured the diaphragm in my front valve rendering it inop. by doing just that.
I by no means disagree with Wiswind's advice to use a beam type torque wrench, however I used a SnapOn 1/4" drive "click" type and had good success. I pulled a couple of bolts out on on the hood latch as I recall, then re-tightened them to various torque values within the specified torque of the intake bolts so as to get a feel before I dove into re-assembly.
I managed to snap the plastic "cage" on the heater line quick connect during dis-assembly. When I put it back however a wire tie around the whole assembly has held it in place fine with no leaking.

Well let us know how things work out for you.

I went off the instructions regarding the IMRC actuators also.
I left the actuators on the lower intake manifold....just disconnected the vaccum lines to them.
I had to remove 1 bolt each....and move them slightly to get that last lower intake manifold bolt.
I did this in order to try to avoid damage to the actuators or linkage....due to the age of the vehicle....and how fragil things can get.

Regarding the fuel rail and injectors, again this is different than the instructions....I disconnected the electrical connection to each injector, I cleaned around each injector......released the fuel pressure, then removed the bolts that hold the fuel rail down......then, leaving the fuel line connected, you can carefully raise the fuel rail with the injectors still connected.
You can hang it just slightly out of the way with some wire.

Of course....as mentioned elsewhere....you MUST change the oil before starting the engine......as you will get coolant down into the crankcase.

Just purchased a subscription to Alldata hoping they would have most of the Part numbers for other components. It seems they have the same numbers as on the Fordcd manuals. there is however more information then contained in the cd. It does get you going around in circles. I checked for parts today at local dealer. I have to talk to the parts manager to see about a discount as the dealer who was by my house who gave me the same disccount as Ford Parts out of Texas, went out of buisness. Now I have to try and find another I can deal with. I would like to find the the part number for the U shaped hose that connects to the pipe from the water pump. They couldnt seem to locate it at the dealer and he wasnt in front of me to point it out.

I think I will change the wires again too. They have to be alot easier to change when the manifold is out.

The alldatadiy instructions show you where to put the bead of sealand....right at the ends of the end seals....where they meet the head...and the corner of the lower intake manifold gasket.
I show in my pictures the little grooves where the end seal and lower intake manifold gasket meet.
This is the ONLY place that you will use the sealant.

I put a bit of thread sealant on each lower intake manifold bolt.
It just takes a very small amount on each one.

Again.....be very careful to avoid breaking one of those lower intake manifold bolts......like I did.

The Alldatadiy information shows 2 specification numbers for the sealant.....my dealership gave me sealant that matched 1 of those numbers......It was clear...."general purpose"....and did not say "sensor safe".
It was NOT the correct stuff.....so double check the label for the indication of "sensor safe".
The other specification number would say "sensor safe"

Also....it is likely that the numbers listed on Alldatadiy my cross to updated numbers on the FORD system, as they will have issued new numbers when they made improvements to them.
The computer at the FORD dealership parts department will have the latest, correct numbers......so that you get the latest improvements.

I ordered the "bypass hose" from Rockauto......and got the pipe with the "U" hose....so maybe that is the only way that they sell it?.......you could have them check again at the dealership...but that is what it is sounding like.

Wiswin
Thanks for your help Ill do a little more research and order the parts from either a local dealer or one of the on line sites.

HI
If you cannot get your deal locally I would recommend y2kford.com in Seattle. I have made 5 or 6 orders from them and they have been very good. I have spoken to them on the phone a few times too and they have tracked down an appropriate part number etc.

Couple of notes as I re-read your original post:

I changed out my thermostat too: Note that the gasket does not come with the thermostat but is a separate part and number and another $6 (list) if you buy from Ford which I did.

Secondly as I mentioned before, that lower radiator hose was very difficult to install. Just not enough room. I think if I did it again, I would pull the metal intake tube from the bottom of the water pump, then pull the hose off of the radiator, re-attach the new hose to the water pump intake tube, back onto the radiator and then push the tube back into the water pump. That is probably similar to how the factory install went. I suppose you run the risk of damaging the o-ring on the water pump intake tube, so perhaps you would want to change that out while you have it apart.

Good luck

Busboy

Thanks I have used both y2k and Genuine Ford Parts out of Texas. http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?siteid=213787 They seem to have the lowest cost and very helpful too. About the o rings on the pipe from the water pump is that on the crossover tube? The U shaped Tube?

Busboy

Thanks I have used both y2k and Genuine Ford Parts out of Texas. http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?siteid=213787 They seem to have the lowest cost and very helpful too. About the o rings on the pipe from the water pump is that on the crossover tube? The U shaped Tube?

No,

the one I was talking about is on the large (Appx. 11/2") metal tube that extends down and forward from the water pump to meet the lower radiator hose. It has a support arm and bolt to hold it in place, but where it enters the water pump there is just the tube with an o-ring on it. See what you think when you replace the hose. Perhaps you will come up with a method other than I suggest. I just know it was a bear.

Finished the lower intake manifold gaskets on Saturday. I was waiting on the O rings for the injectors. As it was I couldnt replace all of them because I didnt want to destroy the caps on the bottom of the injector. I replaced the bottom ones where I could and all the top ones.

Overall the job was real easy. No real problems except Installing the manifold. When it was set in place it was very difficult to get the bolts in. I wire brushed the threads and installed thread sealant but it seemed as though the bolts wer cross threading as I was installing them like the manifold was not aligned properly. I know it was. I even pulled it up after I tried a few bolts and they didnt feel right. (I wondered if they gave me a 4 mm kit instead of the 3mm. The heads have never been machined.) I cut the water line with the quick connect and put a hose clamp on the end . (Wiswind no problem with the length it worked fine.) I replaced all the wires and added electrical grease to the plug wires and plugs to keep the wires from getting stuck. I reccomend pulling off the IMRC's either before or after. Its easier to get at the manifold screws and also for cleaning the manifold. Remember to buy the clips ahead of time. I replaced the thermostat and the coolant temperature sensor. Replaced both radiator hoses. (Busboy you were right the bottom hose is a pain.) I pulled the cables to the throtle body. The thing I did different then advised was to install the injectors in the head first. It was real easy to snap the fuel rail on. Ford actually reccomends doing it that way. I completely removed the upper manifold and replaced the gaskets on the bottom. I left the cowl off and drove about 40 miles mixed driving after I got it running before I put it back on. Just in case. I used permatex spray gasket remover to remove the remainder of gasket residue after the manifold was out. I then used some degreasing agent and pressure washed the manifold. Inside and out. I had left the EGR attached to the large tube so it was not on the manifold. Everything came out clean. Before I put the cowl back on I sprayed the engine with degreaser and covered the alternator with a plastic bag and pressure washed the engine and engine compartment. It was never real greasy because I never had an oil leak.

After driving about 60 miles the CEL came on again after the car bucked and hesitated on acceleration. I checked it and it is still reads Catalytic efficency below threshold bank 2. I was hoping the antifreeze didnt damage the convereter but Im almost sure it did. The first 60 miles the engine was strong great idle and acceleration and then the hesitation from a standing position and it would buck a few times. On easy acceleration it was fine. I have not got to replacing the fuel filter yet I have it I just didnt do it. Just before I posted I took it for a spin it was already at operating temperature and no problem. Cool air? The other time during the hottest part of the day. Ill watch it may be because of the Converter. Sorry for the long winded post just trying to cover it all. By the way Team Ford out of Las Vegas is the best place for parts. Great prices. They will ship out the same day if in stock and you will get it the next. I needed the injector O rings and he reduced the shipping to $6.00 and sent them over night. They were still cheaper then locally.