98 windstar possible head gasket issue.

I have a 98 windstar 3.8L 160k. I have been losing coolant lately and within the last couple weeks it seemed to get worse. I have had to fill the overflow at least once a week. Looking at the overflow tank it looks oily(little brown streaks that look like slicks). I did the cap off the radiator test today and the antifreeze kind of just rose up and fell back down like a pulsing motion not bubbling. When initially starting up the idle is rough gone after about 30sec-1min. I have looked at the many posts out there but so many have different scenarios I want to make sure I am headed in the right direction. Oh yeah oil on the dip stick doesn't look milky.Head Gasket or further testing needed??
Thanks,
Alan

I would say further testing is needed before blaming the head gasket.
If it is the original head gasket (and not one replaced incorrectly at some point), it is more likely that the leak is caused by the lower intake manifold gaskets.
I had the leaking lower intake manifold gaskets, though it was very slight, it did give me the rough idle at start up once in a while.
It also got coolant into the cylinders, and into the oil.
Coolant in the oil will cause serious engine damage long before you will be able to tell by looking at the dip stick, inside of the radiator cap, or by draining a small amount of oil out the drain plug (the most common eyeball methods for checking for coolant in the oil).

I have pictures posted of what is involved in a lower intake manifold gasket job.
I am sure that your 1998 will be similar, though not exact, in the process.

Never had an issue with the head gasket so Yes it is the original. Actually never really had any major issues with the van at all(ps pump/alt/trans@140k,
other regular maintenance items). I will look at the oil tonight. thanks for the input.

The way to check for coolant in the oil is to send a sample to be tested.
You could try a visit to www.blackstone-labs.com for more information and a free sample kit and mailer.

I have seen you post about blackstone labs before(I just checked it out). I am sure it's a good way to go to be 100% sure but I don't think I have 1-2 weeks for our daily driver to sit waiting on results while there are other troubleshooting methods that have worked for most diagnostic purposes in the past.
I thought I read a post during my searches that suggested draining a small amount of oil for inspection, something about the worst being at the bottom(I am going to search for that post now).. But either way I drained a small amount and it looks like color wise the color of mollases *but not the consistency*the consistency is that of oil. The oil has 1000 miles on it. I am thinking my next step is a compression check. A friend also suggested going through 1 cylinder at a time, putting it a TDC and blowing air into the cylinder from a compressor to see if the radiator bubbles.

I once stopped to see if I could give aid to a person stopped at a gas station with his '98 Winnie's hood up. He had owned the van since new .... never had a problem 'til now ... over 200k miles with no problems, but suddenly it was running rough and he thought it was a blown head gasket. He professed not to be much of a mechanic, but this prognosis was right!

It was clear, that while engine is idling, air was being pumped into the coolant ... violent bubbling in the overflow reservoir!

He had 30 miles to go to make home ... I suggested he call a tow truck instead of driving, because of the possibility of having a "hyro-lock" and bending a piston rod or worse.

Are you saying I should use the advice and go the the lab rather then troubleshooting the van? Violent bubbling is what I saw in my escort before I did a head gasket. So that to me is a good indicator of a head gasket issue. But I am not seeing the violent bubbling only a small wave like action and I am not sure if that is the same thing, but to be careful(tow truck metaphor, my wife is no longer driving the van it is sitting in our driveway waiting for me). My earlier post that questioned one method was not ment to ruffle anyone's feathers. I appreciate everyone's input.

Blackstone usually give you results the same day that they get your sample.
They send you an email, and also call you if there is anything found.
You can possibly try to send the sample overnight to them.
I have only sent them 2 samples, and both times I knew within a couple days.

However, that will still not tell you how it got there.....as head gasket, lower intake manifold gasket, and front cover gasket......all 3 can do that.
As I mentioned, the lower intake manifold gasket and front cover gasket are far more common failure items.
I have heard of.....but am not familiar with coolant testing to see if there are combustion byproducts present......which would indicate a head gasket issue.

The compression test, the way you mention, would also be good for this.....as a leaking head gasket (coolant into the cylinder) will cause the compression to leak down faster......whereas the lower intake manifold gasket would not.
The compression test would not find a head gasket leak that does not involve the cylinder chamber.....like a coolant leak to an oil passage or to the outside.

Sounds good I will try a compression check this week. My comment as far as the 1 week response time was from the website under FAQ's it listed it as a possability as to why the sample hasn't been analyzed yet. Thank you for the help I am planning on working on it this weekend.
Alan

Ok here is where I stand. Compression check shows 1-180psi
2-175psi 3-190 psi 4 -160psi 5-195 psi 6-190psi. According to chiltons the compression should be 75% of the highest cylinder which would be 146.25psi which would make my compression well within spec. But pulled the oil cap and it has a milky look and semi gooey feel and the pcv valve has similar conditions. Any idea's. Please help.

Alan.

I am still leaning toward lower intake manifold gaskets.
If you do it / have it done, I would recommend that you get the replacements from FORD to make sure that you get the latest updated (improved) ones.

Sounds like it's worth a shot. A couple other things that may or may not help. The spark plugs were dry when they were pulled and all of them looked the same, not one worse then the other. Thanks for your help and congratulations.

Alan

Well that was fun, but it's done. Had one intake bolt snap, got that out and got a new one from ford. The were signs of leakage around the gasket but not necessarily a smoking gun, first time so I am not really sure if I would just see signs or a torn gasket. But there were also signs from looking at the screws that were removed. A few were blackened and corroded others looked fine. New gaskets from ford, new thermostat,plugs and wires. After removing the lower intake twice the job was done. Overall cleaning took the most time, I could probably do it now in under 4 hours if I didn't have to tap screws and clean. BUT I don't know if the issue is solved, I still have a rise and fall of the water at the rad cap, but there were air bubbles noted in the overflow before and I no longer see them. Could I have a combination of issues? Would I have seen something more obvious with a gasket issue? Or is it the fact that the return or bypass(not the overflow) hose comes back to the top of the radiator when return meets a full radiator it surges over, just guessing I don't want my hours and hours to be a complete waste, at this point I'm tired of it and I will settle for a combination of issue's. Little more help needed, thanks for your input.

Alan

Well....now several people have mentioned breaking one of the bolts.....which I have been feeling bad about doing on mine......so it must be a easy mistake....

I would see if the vehicle continues to "use" coolant.
It will take a bit for all the air pockets to "burp" out of the system, so a initial startup diagnosis is tough.
Keep an eye on coolant level in the overflow tank as well as IMPORTANT in the radiator (remove cap with system COOL), just in case you have a big air bubble that gets over there.

Also, take note that the coolant will expand and contract as it heats and cools.

You will NOT find a tear or break in the gasket.....unless something real strange and catastrophic has happened.
Mine looked pretty normal......as in, that I could not look at the gasket and say..."It was leaking right HERE!"

Hopefully you are in good shape.....and mine has been real nice for almost exactly 1 year since replacement.
From what I have read, FORD improved the replacement gaskets.....so hopefully they will not need any further attention.

Also....don't feel bad about having to do this repair......as it seems that it has been an issue on a number of different brands of vehicles.

Thanks for all your help. It will be under a very watchful eye for the next month or so. I will try to make the maiden voyage tomorrow to work, I figure that way if it breaks down at least I have a hones excuse not to go to work. I drive 1 hour each way to work so the next two days will be a good test. Right now my van has more tool in it then my toolbox just in case I have an issue and I am not at home. So in the end I did new upper lower gaskets(from ford dealer),1 new lower intake bolt(short $4.00), thermostat, oil,filter,plugs,wires,AF flush,oil flush, I guess all and all about $100-$130. After messing up a few things total work time(being careful and cleaning well) about 14-16hours. Now I could do it in 6-8hours w/o a problem. I will post in a week or so with the final outcome. Thanks for all the help.

Well it's been about 1 month with no leaks, so I think that got it. Thanks for all the help.

Congrats on the completed work, hope it proves to be sufficient.

About the bolts appearing differently: some drop into the crankcase area (rather mundane), some drop into the cooling jacket area (can be corrosive) ... some maybe near exhaust ... so one expects different appearances. I think I remember Ford recommending a bit of sealant on these bolts to prevent "crossover" from one area to the other ... probably wouldn't be a lot of crossover, even if it wasn't done.