91 Voyager, 3.3 won't start

1991 Plym. Voyager, LE
3.3L V6

OK, Im starting a new thread here cuz my old one is a few weeks old and got pretty cluttered up with off topic posts concerning legalities around our vandalized vehicle. So I apologize if it seems like Im double posting. I just thought a fresh aspect would create fresh insight. I'll briefly redescribe the issue here but if anyone is interested, they can read what problems I was having back then but you don't have to.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=585833

Basically, a few weeks back, It started to act as though it was losing slight power, just like it needed new plugs/wires. Got those and limped on home. Figured I could at least make it to work next day and home then change plugs/wires. Work is only a couple miles away. Got in it at 5:30am, cranks, no start. Got a ride to work. Called wife at lunch and had her try, after some cranking time, it fired but ran bad like on 3 cyl. Changed plugs and wires, no change. Removed CAT converter cuz it seemed clogged and replaced with straight pipe. No change. This scenario continued the next few days. I finally got time to work on it. We found egg and shells in our fuel filler. This now became a vandalism case(yay insurance!!). We had it towed to service shop. They drained out bad fuel, cleaned tank, flushed system and replaced filter. This got them to where they could fire it but ran like it was on 3 cyl. I tod them that I could get it to do that, also. So the next Monday, they come in and it starts fine and runs perfect. They say it "supposedly" started fine and ran fine for the next few days last week. So they wrote it off as fixed(mysteriously) and told us to come get our van. Picked it up and payed our $100 deductable. It did start and run great. Refilled tank with new fuel and got it home. I wanted to drive it a few days to work to make sure before wife drove it. Got in it at, you guessed it, 5:30am, cranks but won't start. However, something is a little different. Now, it does that but if I sit there and crank it long enough, it will eventually start(like before) but run bad like on 3 cyl. If I let it run that way a while and keep turning engine off and restarting, at some point once it has started to warm up, one of the times I restart it, it will just mysteriously start and run fine. Then it even got to the point where while it was still running crappy, it would also backfire thru tail pipe after hitting the gas pedal. Then, like I said, at some point it will magically start and run fine. This is where we're at now. The whole time we have leaned towards fuel because there is plenty of spark, ASD is not shutting anything down and there are NO codes. This is how we discovered the egg. I just have a real problem here, tho concerning the fuel side of it Yesterday, I went ahead and bought a new fuel pump just so I'd have it here if needed, as well as an extra 5gal fuel can and siphoning tool(we're 25 miles from town). I'm going here in a minute to another auto parts store to get a EFI fuel pressure tester. I also wanted to get the fuel regulator just in case but they didnt have it in stock. I think Im in the right direction here but I still need some added help and assurance. first of all, does everyone think that I may be right in suspecting fuel pump?? I've tried the rubber mallet trick, didn't help. Plus, when I turn the key on, I can hear the pump cycle and I can hear it whirring while cranking. No I don't need to get near the gas cap, it's quite evident from inside the van. Or maybe I should be suspecting the fuel regulator? What about the fuel dampener? Could it cause this scenario? The fuel PSI tester will help me, I guess.

**Now, also...Can someone please give me a definative answer on these fuel pumps??? I've asked around here on forums and elsewhere and searched like crazy. One person will say they either work or they don't. When they go, they go.
The next person will say that they can go slowly, partially or intermittantly. What gives??? Which is it???
There's certain scenarios which support both theories. I've heard of things that suggest that they either work or they don't like the fact that they are electical. Most electrical components either work or they don't.
On the other hand, the, ever so popular "whacking" of the bottom of the tank trick suggests that these pumps DO have the capability to operate intermittantly or partially or start going bad slowly. I'm lost here. Can anyone shed some light on this? I've got a $180 part in front of me that I really can't afford. I'm about to go buy a $40 tool I can't afford and may have to buy other parts.

Oh, also. I have 2 spark plugs that cracked the porcelain when they went in.(dam backside 3 plugs) Anyway, they were small cracks very near the top of the plug and are well insulated by the wire boot so I don't think that is even relavent. Besides, it will run fine after a while and that just wouldn't fit.

OK, well, I'm gonna run off to town for the tester. I will check back for posts shortly. THANK YOU everyone for any and all help. I really would like to know the truth about these pumps. Thanx!!!!!

What a lousy situation.

Everyone you talk to is basing their advice on their experiences. Even the best intentioned guy with years of experience can give you advice that doesn't work. Not because he's incompetent but, because in his experience this or that is what he's seen work. Sure you can spend some big bucks in the processes but, that's just the way it is. It can be pretty tough to find a mechanic who can fix everything without being wrong now and then. We're all human.

My :2cents:. Putting myself in your shoes, the pump is a pretty good move but, I've just got this feeling not all the crap was cleaned out of the system and if you change the pump it could just get re-contamintated and waste your money. How can you prove that? Pull the filter out and see what it has caught so far. If you see crap in it, I would drain and clean the tank again, flush the fuel lines and clean or change the injectors. Then with all that done, change the pump and at least inspect the regulator and damper. By inspect I mean remove and dismantle them if possible. If the filter is clean I would flush and blow out everything forward of it to include the fuel lines and injectors. (I'm assuming the filter is on the tank).

Like most of the guys posting here I am not an auto mechanic. I spent a couple decades fixing avionics on jets in the Air Force. The only experience I've had on autos is doing nearly all of the maintenance on my own cars and now and then working on friends and families cars. I've never had to deal with the problem you're having. Hope I never will. I figure in your situation I owed you that because I've seen people in serious situations like yours on various forums take whatever is posted as gospel and go with it. Please only consider what I said along with what many others have suggested then come up with a plan. You don't need to get burned more than you have. Keep posting. Cheers!

If you hear the fuel pump running, then that is not the problem.
I suspect an ignition coil pack, plug wires, or one of the two crank sensors.
Was the gas filter under passenger front seat changed?

I also am suspicious that you may have put the egg in the tank your self to commit insurance fraud.

I also am suspicious that you may have put the egg in the tank your self to commit insurance fraud. LOL!!!:cwm27: Jeez, I hope that's a joke. Ya, I'm trying to defraud my insurance company. That's why all I let the dealership service department do was drain the fuel, clean the tank, flush the system and change the fuel filter. That's why I've spent 2 weeks of my own time with bloody, grease and gas covered knuckles ripping my hair out trying to figure out what the problem is. And as if that's not satisfying enough, I thought it would be a real hoot to blow a $100 deductable, $180 on a fuel pump and another $80-$100 on fuel injection PSI tester, gas cans, siphoning kit and other parts and tools to drop the tank. Yep, I sure pulled a real fast one over on my insurance company, didn't I!?! ROFL! Jeez!:rofl:

Anyway, score one up for the wife........maybe. She's been buggin me to change the two spark plugs I cracked. With everything looking like fuel and the fact that they were still pretty well insulated, I kept putting that off. So anyway, right now it's running ok after I changed them, but just OK. It's still got some hesitation at low RPM's with a slight shake and it kinda sounds like a big block V8. The missing CAT. converter might be the cause of that, I guess. So either the wife was right and it was the plugs as well as everything else, or right now it just may have decided to go ahead and work like it's been doing the last couple days. The big test will be tomorrow at 5:30am when I go out to see if it starts. I'll report back then. Thanx for your help, guys!!!!!

**EDIT-
P.S., there's only one crank position sensor. Perhaps the other sensor you are referring to is the cam position sensor. Just wanna keep things clear for our fellow readers.

My wife put a little placard up on my computer desk as a reminder when I'm having trouble. It says, "If at first you don't succeed, try it your wifes way". It's amazing how often that works. Cross your fingers.

As for Berny F...we all have bad days.

:banghead:

OK guys, now I really need some help. Im stumped, now. I just went to try to start it before bed. No go. I don't get it, now. All you should need are spark, air and fuel. I know all 3 are good. I get no codes. All sensors should be fine. Oil and water look good. Coil pack is good. ASD is not shutting down. Fuel PSI is 48-49 psi at fuel rail. I checked return. It is good. There is definately a relation to engine temp of some sort. I'm guessing that as we sit there and crank, crank, crank, crank, it is actually starting to warm up the engine to the point where it runs but like crap. Although, since I replaced the two cracked plugs, maybe now it will actually run good when the cranking finally gets to it and it fires. The only other different thing I've done was cut off my CAT converter. Would that make it not start when cold?? I know tons of people who always cut them off and ream them out or just replace with a straight pipe. Also, many big V8 engines run around with headers and straight pipes. So, why would that matter? I thought it might with smaller engines. Somebody told me once on my little Geo Metro that some motors actually require a certain amount of back pressure to run. Dam, what the hell is making this thing not start when cold and possibly run like crap for a while???(Might not, now.) I can't think of what it woud be, now. Now, I'm really stuck........o.0

Anyone got any ideas????????:crying:
Please help!! Thank you everyone! I know you guys are my best place for help.

48 psi doesn't seem like much fuel pressure. What does your manual say the pressure should be?

Multi-point injection? Possibly some injectors are plugged.

I'd get a good cat installed before you go any further.

Need one more thing for a smooth running engine. TIMING. The fact it ran ok a couple times goes against a bad timing theory but, at this point I would check it anyway.What could cause it? Slipped timing chain/belt or a loose or worn distributor. Also, could you have gotten a couple plug wires swapped in all this mess? If the timing is good I guess we're back to the fuel system.

Steve,

Actually 48psi is exactly what it's supposed to be. We're good there. Fuel PSI is good all the way to the fuel rail. Yes, multi-point EFI and I just realized moments ago when it dawned on me, hmmm....my injectors aren't making much noise. Usually they have a very audible and appearant "tick-tick-tick". It just dawned on me they weren't doing that. So I grabbed a 2 foot flat head screwdriver(stethescope) and listened. My Haynes book says all 6 should feel/sound smooth and uniform to each other and rise and fall with the RPM's. They do rise and fall but none of the 6 sound the same. A couple sound a lot slower and weak. Hmmmm.....
If that's the case, it's going back to the dealership service dept. If they're plugged that bad that quick, it's from the egg in my tank. I think maybe when it's cold, they're all gummed up and cold. As I sit and crank for 5-6 minutes, they warm up slightly and maybe the fuel pressure starts to loosen them up just enough to get it to fire. Then, all of a sudden, it will just run like new. Then if I shut it down and wait 5 hours until it's cold again, the whole situation starts over. Does that sound very plausible?? o.0
It would kinda make sense, I guess. What do you all think?? Asfar as the cat, I probably will get another one but several shops have told us that not having one woulldn't keep it from starting. Maybe this injector idea is the more feosible route right now.


RIP,
Thank you soooo much for your reply and all of you actually. As for the timing, I can't check that. That is completely and entirely controlled by the computer. I have absolutely no control over the timing. I am also 100% positive the plug wires are correctly connected. I also don't have a distributor to check. No cap and rotor......electronic DIS, instead. All I have is a coil pack which I've verified good many times. but thank you very much, though. Those are all very important points to bring up. Everyone here is so helpful!!!!

I kinda like my injector theory. Just before, I went out after work to start it. Of course, cranks but no start. I cranked for 5 min. or so. Finally fires, but runs like total crap like 3 cyl. I was shutting it off and restarting a bunch of times cuz that's usually when it will just mysteriously all of a sudden fire up and run like new. Well, this time, I was holding the RPM's at about 2000(running like crap) and just sitting there watching the guage, NEVER moved my foot, the dam thing jumped up to about 3000+ RPM's and the sound of the motor improved. Just like that while I was sitting there. That would almost sort of support my injector theory, wouldn't it?? Like whatever fuel is going through starts to loosen up the egg or whatever gunk in the injectors and starts to shoot more and more?? Then once the engine is shut off and cools the gunk starts to gum up again?? Any thoughts?? o.0

i know wtf? but trust me put a battery in it! without proper amperage to run the tps and idle contol motor you got squat. seen that one before and the battery checked out good with a battery tester

Ummmm.......ya, never heard that one. I'm open to any possibility, though. However, that wouldn't explain why it acts up when it's getting it's power from the alternator and back and forth. Thank you, though. Plus, I would be more inclined to follow up on something like that if all this other stuff hadn't happened already, like the egg and the way it acts. I'm sure my battery has enough amperage to activate a sensor or idle speed control motor. I've actually ran it down a little while cranking and it still fired. I would be inclined to believe that if I have enough CCA to crank my starter for over 5 minutes, it has enough to power a sensor. Besides, the TPS or ICM would throw out a code. But as I said, all suggestions are good ones. I'll try it with another battery or jumped to another running vehicle. Thank you!!!!!!!!

have a sneeky feeling that its also a bad bat, I had that same knd of starting prob crop up after I bought this used 92 T&C, the thing died and had to jump it to restart, after starting I had to hold the gas down for a while to keep it running, I bet that was to get the dead bat up, cause after about 10 min of that it kept running OK, after that the bat would fire the thing but it ran funny, than one day I decided to just go to autozone and have the bat checked, it came up "bad", replaced it with a almost new one from another van, and no more starting problems,

I'm not even going to change plugs on this thing ever, I'll run it till it dies and than junk it, I only gave under 800 for it anyway :)

Only prob I have now is with the dealer getting my recalled ABS part (master cyl) which seems to be like finding the holy grail for them.

BTW, just a thought. What are the chances the engine computer itself is toast doing funky things like not firing all the injectors the same and all the other crap that's gone on??

My thoughts are that if junk is found in filter. Then very possible that junk got by the filter. Injectors effected by that.

Steve,

Actually 48psi is exactly what it's supposed to be.

Yea, I checked my manual after I posted that.

Maybe injector cleaner will digest that omelette.

a 91 would not set common codes you would see in an obd2 system, like i said before the batteries show excellent voltage and even pass a load test, jumping wont help, swap the battery and that will tell you. hope it helps

OKAY.......
Sorry I haven't been back in a while. The dealership service has been baby sitting our van for the last 2 weeks. Here's where we're at now......(sorry these posts are long, just trying to supply all of you with as much info as possible.)

I sent it back for them to troubleshoot and inspect the fuel and the injectors some more. I told them about my injector theory that I spoke of in previous posts. They said they coudn't figure it out. Said the dam things been a diagnostic nightmare, been running them in circles. But, they finally declared that fuel was making it all the way to the cylinders.(not sure how they acertained that, but whatever) They declared to me and to my insurance agent that fuel and the "egg in the tank" was absolutely no longer an issue. (Hmmm.....well there goes the insurance company.) So they tried looking at a few more things. Now that the insurance coverage was out of the way, they told me fuel is good and there's NO spark whatsoever. I thought that's funny cuz it's had good spark the whole time. Also told me that now the van is COMPLETELY dead, won't even start and run like crap like before. So.....they decided that my ignition switch and my engine computer(SBEC) is bad. They said that there was no power from ignition to computer and even jumpered power to it and nothing. They quoted me $750 to replace the ign. switch and the SBEC. Complete BS!!!!
I told them I never had any intention to pay them to fix our van unless it was caused by the vandalism in which case it was covered by insurance. So, according to them, fuel is good all the way to cylinders, injectors are fine, NO spark at all, and van won't start period. I payed $115 to have it towed home. The second it was on the ground, I stuck a flat head screw driver in the plug wires and had enough spark to blow me across the yard. While I was checking the spark on the plug wires, hmm.....it started. Ran like crap like it was on 2 or 3 cylinders, but it started, just like it always has. I got out my stethiscope(2 foot screwdriver) and guess what??? Four dead injectors. One was clicking intermittently, tho. Just to rule out the engine computer, I took the electrical connector from one of the NONworking injectors and swapped it with one of the working ones and, yep, still works. Took the good electrical connector from one of the working injectors and plugged it into one of the NONworking ones to see if it would start clicking. Nope. I need more info to make a good determination about whether or not the signals are accurate from the computer but this was a good test. I haven't learned enough about the injectors like the coil resistance inside the injectors, what the voltage is supposed to be or whether it's power or ground that's switched but like I said, good test. So I got 2 that are clicking good and 4 that are dead. OK, so I started it running like crap, let it run a while to warm up and the same thing happened like before. The RPMs all of a sudden went up a little and it ran a little better. Low and behold, one of the dead injectors, the one that was actually intermittent, was now clicking good. 3 down, 3 to go. I had an idea......
I started banging on one of the flat dead injectors with my 2 foot screwdriver stethiscope like you would with a sticky starter. Guess what?? Bam, RPMs went up a little more and ran a little better. 4 down, 2 to go. I repeated this technique with the 2 remaining dead injectors and received the same results which brought me to a PERFECTLY running engine, like brand new. The last injector took quite a lot of banging but finally gave in.

So, does it sound like I'm headed in the right direction, here?? Does it sound like my injector theory from previous posts might hold some water?? Can any one actually give me some troubleshooting specs for those injectors like coil resistance, voltage, etc.?? The injectors only quit because of one of two reasons.....either the injector is bad(coil fried or injector plugged) -or- bad or no signal from the computer, right?? If so and the signal from the computer was wrong or bad or non existant, beating on the injector wouldn't remedy that, I'm guessin'. They're $62 a piece at Autozone. I just don't wanna go spend $370 bucks on injectors, regardless of how sure I may or may not be and then find out it WAS the computer. What do you guys think?????? Thanx soooooo much everyone. If you even read thru this far, that shows you care. Thanx!!!!!!

Im sorry, I know everyones prolly busy. Im not trying to bump the thread, Im just in kind of a time crunch. I need to get the injectors ordered if Im goin that route. I was just hoping for some more experienced folks like you all to see my last post and give me a more educated yay or nay. I don't wanna go spend $400 for injectors if Im way off base here. It sure sounds like injectors to me but I am not that experienced with them. You guys are way more experienced with these vans than I. That's why I come here because I really trust and respect your opinions and instruction. So come all ye voyager/caravan experts. Tell your friends. Read at least the last post and let me know if Im on the right track with the injectors or if Im completely crazy. Thanx!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im prolly gonna go ahead and get the injectors ordered. It'll take a couple days to get them. And I can always return them if you guys dont think thats it. Someone let me know what you think. Thanx a whole bunch, guys!!!!!!!!!!
Id hate to spend the money if its only the computer which I can get for about $75. Thanx again!!!!!!!!

I'll check back.

Bump.
(Sorry, I just really need some input, here. Thanx, everybody.)

Well, I tried one more test. I thought that maybe the bad injectors were starting to free up and start clicking was also partially due to the engine warming up instead of or as well as me tapping on them. So I tried something else. I did the normal crank, crank, crank till she starts and of course runs like crap like on 2 cylinders cuz actually it is only running on 2 cylinders, he-he:rofl:..
This time, I went right to tapping on the injectors before it ever had a chance to warm up and sure enough they started clickin' away. A little out of sink and uneven but it did it, all except for one. So Im feeling more and more confident on the injector theory of mine. I still wish I could get a little input from you fine folks. I really value your opinions and suggestions.
Im sorry, did I offend some people or something?? Every time Ive ever been here, I always get lots of feedback and when I look at the new posts, theres lots of activity but it seems like my posts are invisible. I hope I didn't make someone mad. Anyway, thank you all so much. I have the injectors coming. I can change them out this weekend. If anyone thinks Im going the wrong route, please let me know before this weekend. Once they're installed, no taking them back. Thanx everybody!!

Well, in case anyone's wondering, my theory was correct. Brand new injectors did the trick. That was (most of) the problem. Fired every time, now. Although, a couple times it intermittently started to run a little crappy like a miss and also, since the new injectors, the idle is unusually high. Idles in park at around 1300 RPM/ in gear at around 1000 RPM. Should be about 900 in park and about 750 in gear. Well I figured maybe a vuccum leak. Turns out it was, sort of. I replaced the throttle body gasket during the new injector install and accidently put the gasket on backwards.(heh-heh, oops!)
And It looks like the brand new plug wires I just bought are crap. Two of them pulled the little metal connectors inside off when I went to pull them to check spark. I replaced those two with the originals. Runs like a top, now.......well, for now. Now for the same "wait and see" game I've been playing with everything else intermittent. If it lasts at least a month or two I figure it's fixed, just like last year with the cam sensor. Then I can consider it trustworthy again.

Thanx for everyone's help.

I have the same problem with my 96 3.3. but mine dont start it did but now it cranks only like it wants to start.haven't got as far as you yet . I will try the injector thing.hope mine works like yours. crank and cam sensor replace ,plugs and wires also.no luck.

thnx for your long diag and all the peps that helps.

Just to be sure it's not the pump or a clogged filter/line. I'd open the air filter housing and give it a shot a one second blast of starting fluid. If it runs for a second or two take a real good look at the fuel delivery system. I had both a clogged filter and a bad pump. The pump has two modes. When you turn the key it'll run for a second or two untill it motor is running.

If it does run on the starting fluid for the second or so, Take the cap off the fuel rail. Be very carfull. If the pump is working the should be pressureized gas in the rail if you push the pin in. If none comes out, have someone crank the engine over while you hit the bottom of the fuel tank. That will sometimes shock the pump into working. But not for very long.