The developing mystery of chassis #022...
Peloton25
06-10-2006, 01:51 AM
Ok - so most of you are thinking "What mystery? Isn't that Wyclef Jean's F1?" but I am beginning to believe that we are wrong on the chassis number of Wyclef's car, and have been all along.
I first began to question this when I spoke to Thomas Bscher (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=502424) at the LA Auto Show. Mr Bscher mentioned to me that evening he had sold his car to a man named Miles Collier which was not a name that was immediately recognizable to me. I also mentioned Wyclef Jean's name to Mr Bscher and that wasn't one he seemed to recognize either. You will recall that Mr Bscher was certain that his road car had been #022 - also confirmed in this scanned article - 3rd column of text (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=102439373965623137646eh.jpg) - and informed me that he still owns GTR #22R, and finally that his Veyron will be chassis #022 as well, in keeping with the trend.
Had I been thinking :banghead: I would have looked the new name up the moment I got home that night, but I failed to do that and let it slip my mind. You'll also notice this wasn't something I bothered to mention in my post about meeting Mr Bscher. I recall thinking at the time that Mr Collier must have been a middleman involved in the sale of #022 between Bscher and Jean and really thought nothing of it since a lot of times there are two and three such middlemen involved in the transaction on a McLaren F1. Shame on me really... :disappoin
So, months go by and on April 20th I happen to be at Borders (book store) with a friend who was talking to an old co-worker forever it seemed. I got bored and started picking up magazines that I don't normally read and flipping through the pages. One such magazine was the May issue of "Sports Car Market" - a monthly that covers the collector car market both here in the USA and around the world. Ten pages into the magazine I spot this photo which measures 3.25" x 2.5" on the center of the editor, Keith Martin's, monthly column. My eye was instantly drawn to a McLaren F1 I did not recognize :22yikes: and I don't think any of you will either. (If you do, you've been keeping things from us :shakehead )
http://a0.cpimg.com/image/4A/AF/58414410-b0d6-0200018E-.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1/F1_L.jpg)
Clickable
I read through the column (which had little if anything to say about the F1) and there was the same name I had discounted months before - Miles Collier - listed as the host of a 3-day event called "Connoisseurship 2006". Apparently it was a gathering of 50 very serious collectors and presentations were given by Collier and several others on the state of the collector car market. One other notable presenter mentioned in the article was Doug Nye. His name should be reconizable to most here, as it's his name on the cover of "Driving Ambition". :thumbsup: Anyway - there was very little in the article about where the event was held but it did list Mr Collier as the host and given that Mr Bscher was confident he had sold his car to him, I figured that the F1 in the photo was his. Of course that would mean the F1 in the photo is also #022. :uhoh:
When I got home that night I discovered that Miles Collier and the Collier family have quite a legacy in the motoring world. Miles runs the Collier Auto Museum which is dedicated to his father and uncles who were well known amatuer racers in the 1930's. The museum has been referred to as the finest collection of sports cars in America, possibly the world, containing "a sparkling collection of 75 classic sports cars from every decade of the 20th century" - this was where the Connoisseurship event referred to in the article was held. Most of the cars (approx 50) in the Collier Museum were purchased from the Briggs Cunningham collection in 1987. That in itself is a very interesting story, but at the moment I can't seem to find the article I read describing that transaction.
I have found differing information on the status of the museum unfortunately. Several places reference that the museum is closed to the public and used only for private events, while others seem to suggest its open. I haven't contacted the museum yet - still on my "things to do" list, but I plan to get that done soon and will update this thread with the info I find.
Back to the story of #022 here. Besides Mr Bscher's own words confirming who he sold his car to, there was also this snippet in the Times Online F1 -vs- Veyron article (http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,26789-2056987,00.html) that I had previously glazed over:
"Thomas Bscher, the suave former banker who is now Bugatti’s president, used to own an F1. He drove it to work every day for two years from his home in Cologne to his office in Frankfurt before selling it in 2003 to an American collector Miles Collier."
So, taking that statement into account, if Bscher didn't sell his F1 to Collier until 2003, then I see no way possible that Wyclef could have displayed the car in the USA as early as August 2002 (Funkmaster Flex car show) if his car was really chassis #022. It would have to be another chassis number.
Now of course there's always conflicting information to take into account...
gerd mentions chassis #022 is Wyclef's without question in this post (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=833644&postcount=12), and regardless of his stubbornness on some topics, the information he provides here has almost always been spot on.
Also, our old friend XOTech states the same information in this post (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1268451&postcount=6) as well, and he was almost never wrong himself.
It seems we are now left with a bit of a mystery in regards to chassis #022. We can be certain that it was Bscher's originally - that doesn't seem to be open to debate. What is unclear at this point is whether it's now the green F1 in the photo above or if it was truly Wyclef's as others claim. Anyone who can conclusively prove things one way or the other will be my hero, but for now I will be working from the assumption that #022 is in the Collier museum and that Wyclef must have owned another car instead.
Chris and I have been hashing this out for a while over PMs and he seems convinced of exactly the opposite of what I believe (so typical of him :iceslolan ). He seems certain Wyclef's car was indeed #022 and that the green F1 in the Collier Museum must wear a different chassis number. That's certainly possible I guess, but doesn't make a lot of sense given time line and the two statements sourced from Bscher himself on who he sold chassis #022 to and when.
I guess it should also be noted here that to the best of both our knowledge that Wyclef is no longer the owner of whichever F1 it was that he had. Neither of us seem to know where that car went, or whom it's new owner might be, but he seems to have sold the car within the past year or so.
>8^)
ER
I first began to question this when I spoke to Thomas Bscher (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=502424) at the LA Auto Show. Mr Bscher mentioned to me that evening he had sold his car to a man named Miles Collier which was not a name that was immediately recognizable to me. I also mentioned Wyclef Jean's name to Mr Bscher and that wasn't one he seemed to recognize either. You will recall that Mr Bscher was certain that his road car had been #022 - also confirmed in this scanned article - 3rd column of text (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=102439373965623137646eh.jpg) - and informed me that he still owns GTR #22R, and finally that his Veyron will be chassis #022 as well, in keeping with the trend.
Had I been thinking :banghead: I would have looked the new name up the moment I got home that night, but I failed to do that and let it slip my mind. You'll also notice this wasn't something I bothered to mention in my post about meeting Mr Bscher. I recall thinking at the time that Mr Collier must have been a middleman involved in the sale of #022 between Bscher and Jean and really thought nothing of it since a lot of times there are two and three such middlemen involved in the transaction on a McLaren F1. Shame on me really... :disappoin
So, months go by and on April 20th I happen to be at Borders (book store) with a friend who was talking to an old co-worker forever it seemed. I got bored and started picking up magazines that I don't normally read and flipping through the pages. One such magazine was the May issue of "Sports Car Market" - a monthly that covers the collector car market both here in the USA and around the world. Ten pages into the magazine I spot this photo which measures 3.25" x 2.5" on the center of the editor, Keith Martin's, monthly column. My eye was instantly drawn to a McLaren F1 I did not recognize :22yikes: and I don't think any of you will either. (If you do, you've been keeping things from us :shakehead )
http://a0.cpimg.com/image/4A/AF/58414410-b0d6-0200018E-.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1/F1_L.jpg)
Clickable
I read through the column (which had little if anything to say about the F1) and there was the same name I had discounted months before - Miles Collier - listed as the host of a 3-day event called "Connoisseurship 2006". Apparently it was a gathering of 50 very serious collectors and presentations were given by Collier and several others on the state of the collector car market. One other notable presenter mentioned in the article was Doug Nye. His name should be reconizable to most here, as it's his name on the cover of "Driving Ambition". :thumbsup: Anyway - there was very little in the article about where the event was held but it did list Mr Collier as the host and given that Mr Bscher was confident he had sold his car to him, I figured that the F1 in the photo was his. Of course that would mean the F1 in the photo is also #022. :uhoh:
When I got home that night I discovered that Miles Collier and the Collier family have quite a legacy in the motoring world. Miles runs the Collier Auto Museum which is dedicated to his father and uncles who were well known amatuer racers in the 1930's. The museum has been referred to as the finest collection of sports cars in America, possibly the world, containing "a sparkling collection of 75 classic sports cars from every decade of the 20th century" - this was where the Connoisseurship event referred to in the article was held. Most of the cars (approx 50) in the Collier Museum were purchased from the Briggs Cunningham collection in 1987. That in itself is a very interesting story, but at the moment I can't seem to find the article I read describing that transaction.
I have found differing information on the status of the museum unfortunately. Several places reference that the museum is closed to the public and used only for private events, while others seem to suggest its open. I haven't contacted the museum yet - still on my "things to do" list, but I plan to get that done soon and will update this thread with the info I find.
Back to the story of #022 here. Besides Mr Bscher's own words confirming who he sold his car to, there was also this snippet in the Times Online F1 -vs- Veyron article (http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,26789-2056987,00.html) that I had previously glazed over:
"Thomas Bscher, the suave former banker who is now Bugatti’s president, used to own an F1. He drove it to work every day for two years from his home in Cologne to his office in Frankfurt before selling it in 2003 to an American collector Miles Collier."
So, taking that statement into account, if Bscher didn't sell his F1 to Collier until 2003, then I see no way possible that Wyclef could have displayed the car in the USA as early as August 2002 (Funkmaster Flex car show) if his car was really chassis #022. It would have to be another chassis number.
Now of course there's always conflicting information to take into account...
gerd mentions chassis #022 is Wyclef's without question in this post (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=833644&postcount=12), and regardless of his stubbornness on some topics, the information he provides here has almost always been spot on.
Also, our old friend XOTech states the same information in this post (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1268451&postcount=6) as well, and he was almost never wrong himself.
It seems we are now left with a bit of a mystery in regards to chassis #022. We can be certain that it was Bscher's originally - that doesn't seem to be open to debate. What is unclear at this point is whether it's now the green F1 in the photo above or if it was truly Wyclef's as others claim. Anyone who can conclusively prove things one way or the other will be my hero, but for now I will be working from the assumption that #022 is in the Collier museum and that Wyclef must have owned another car instead.
Chris and I have been hashing this out for a while over PMs and he seems convinced of exactly the opposite of what I believe (so typical of him :iceslolan ). He seems certain Wyclef's car was indeed #022 and that the green F1 in the Collier Museum must wear a different chassis number. That's certainly possible I guess, but doesn't make a lot of sense given time line and the two statements sourced from Bscher himself on who he sold chassis #022 to and when.
I guess it should also be noted here that to the best of both our knowledge that Wyclef is no longer the owner of whichever F1 it was that he had. Neither of us seem to know where that car went, or whom it's new owner might be, but he seems to have sold the car within the past year or so.
>8^)
ER
Peloton25
06-10-2006, 02:40 AM
Before the debate begins to rage (if at all), here's the few paragraphs that mention the F1 in the editor's column:
Super Car Du Jour
But not all cars will appreciate. At the Collier Seminar, (Simon) Kidston led a class on the future of today's supercars. We had, on site, a McLaren F1, a Ferrari Enzo and F40, a Porsche 959 and Carrera GT, a Jag XJ220, and a Bugatti EB110 and Veyron. It made for a handsome garage. In my opinion, these flavor-of-the-month cars have -- with a couple of exceptions -- nowhere to go but down in value.
The McLaren is a surefire blue-chip collectible, with technological excellence backed up by true competition heritage. Winning at LeMans is a nice "occupational experience" to have in your marque resume.
And though the 959 looks like a 911 with a rather tail-heavy body kit grafted on, it will stay strong. This is partly because it was such a successful rally car, partly because it was a highpoint in automotive technology, and because a large number of Porsche fanatics will always look to it as an icon.
The F40 stands the same way. LM versions had some successes, and visually, with its outrageous Plymouth Superbird wing, the car was the first bad-boy Ferrari to come along since the Daytona.
But here the water gets murkier. The Carrera GT looks like the Boxster from the front, has no competition history, and is being built in huge numbers (over 1,200 at last count). These factors alone will guarantee that no one cares in the long run.
The Enzo will become as unloved as the F50 is, once the model supplanting it. the "Enzo X-treme," hits the road. The EB110 is just a goofy afterthought, a made-up car with a made-up brand who's only redeeming value is its rarity.
The XJ220, arguably launched with the worst PR campaign in history, as well as a raft of Jaguar lawsuits against disgruntled customers, continues to be curvaceous, huge, and irrelevant. Finally, rather than concentrating on the Passats that paid the bills, VW's ex-chairman, Ferdinand Piech, managed to squander enormous resources on the new Veyron, a car that will never be more than a collecting afterthought, no matter how prodigious its performance.
-Keith Martin
My sincere apologies to Enzo and Veyron lovers everywhere. :lol:
>8^)
ER
Super Car Du Jour
But not all cars will appreciate. At the Collier Seminar, (Simon) Kidston led a class on the future of today's supercars. We had, on site, a McLaren F1, a Ferrari Enzo and F40, a Porsche 959 and Carrera GT, a Jag XJ220, and a Bugatti EB110 and Veyron. It made for a handsome garage. In my opinion, these flavor-of-the-month cars have -- with a couple of exceptions -- nowhere to go but down in value.
The McLaren is a surefire blue-chip collectible, with technological excellence backed up by true competition heritage. Winning at LeMans is a nice "occupational experience" to have in your marque resume.
And though the 959 looks like a 911 with a rather tail-heavy body kit grafted on, it will stay strong. This is partly because it was such a successful rally car, partly because it was a highpoint in automotive technology, and because a large number of Porsche fanatics will always look to it as an icon.
The F40 stands the same way. LM versions had some successes, and visually, with its outrageous Plymouth Superbird wing, the car was the first bad-boy Ferrari to come along since the Daytona.
But here the water gets murkier. The Carrera GT looks like the Boxster from the front, has no competition history, and is being built in huge numbers (over 1,200 at last count). These factors alone will guarantee that no one cares in the long run.
The Enzo will become as unloved as the F50 is, once the model supplanting it. the "Enzo X-treme," hits the road. The EB110 is just a goofy afterthought, a made-up car with a made-up brand who's only redeeming value is its rarity.
The XJ220, arguably launched with the worst PR campaign in history, as well as a raft of Jaguar lawsuits against disgruntled customers, continues to be curvaceous, huge, and irrelevant. Finally, rather than concentrating on the Passats that paid the bills, VW's ex-chairman, Ferdinand Piech, managed to squander enormous resources on the new Veyron, a car that will never be more than a collecting afterthought, no matter how prodigious its performance.
-Keith Martin
My sincere apologies to Enzo and Veyron lovers everywhere. :lol:
>8^)
ER
bucciali
06-10-2006, 04:11 AM
<...>a few paragraphs that mention the F1 in the editor's column <....>
The McLaren is a surefire blue-chip collectible, with technological excellence backed up by true competition heritage. Winning at LeMans is a nice "occupational experience" to have in your marque resume.
If those 50 or so gentlemen with the green entrance passes really are serious car collectors, I think, with this remark of Mr. Keith Martin, the market for F1's just got a bit tighter...
Ontopic: a very interesting mystery. Things won't be cleared up, until we see the chassis # plaque, I reckon. There might be a couple of things in the story, that we can built on, the fact that Bscher knows he sold #022 to Collier as the most apparent. But you never know if Collier decided to sell this F1 on and bought another one later. Gerd Petrik might be certain that it's 022, but do we know whether he actually saw the car and it's plaque? From his little list of facts, it's obvious he was quite involved in the F1 market at the time, but if you hear this from a salesman who heard it from another who heard it....you catch my drift. (I just can't imagine Gerd being friendly with Wyclef :lol2: but who knows.....)
Shall we start the debate on the colours?
1. Erik, couldn't you have asked Bscher what colour his 022 was, when he sold it? :smokin:
2. The off-factory colour of 022 was "Genesis Dark Blue". The car in the picture definately isn't. Did Bscher repaint it? Did Collier?
Interesting........
The McLaren is a surefire blue-chip collectible, with technological excellence backed up by true competition heritage. Winning at LeMans is a nice "occupational experience" to have in your marque resume.
If those 50 or so gentlemen with the green entrance passes really are serious car collectors, I think, with this remark of Mr. Keith Martin, the market for F1's just got a bit tighter...
Ontopic: a very interesting mystery. Things won't be cleared up, until we see the chassis # plaque, I reckon. There might be a couple of things in the story, that we can built on, the fact that Bscher knows he sold #022 to Collier as the most apparent. But you never know if Collier decided to sell this F1 on and bought another one later. Gerd Petrik might be certain that it's 022, but do we know whether he actually saw the car and it's plaque? From his little list of facts, it's obvious he was quite involved in the F1 market at the time, but if you hear this from a salesman who heard it from another who heard it....you catch my drift. (I just can't imagine Gerd being friendly with Wyclef :lol2: but who knows.....)
Shall we start the debate on the colours?
1. Erik, couldn't you have asked Bscher what colour his 022 was, when he sold it? :smokin:
2. The off-factory colour of 022 was "Genesis Dark Blue". The car in the picture definately isn't. Did Bscher repaint it? Did Collier?
Interesting........
Peloton25
06-10-2006, 04:59 AM
Gerd Petrik might be certain that it's 022, but do we know whether he actually saw the car and it's plaque? From his little list of facts, it's obvious he was quite involved in the F1 market at the time, but if you hear this from a salesman who heard it from another who heard it....you catch my drift. (I just can't imagine Gerd being friendly with Wyclef :lol2: but who knows.....)
Well for starters, don't confuse the contributor here with the username gerd as being "Gerd Petrik". That's definitely not the case from what I can tell.
Ontopic: a very interesting mystery. Things won't be cleared up, until we see the chassis # plaque, I reckon.
Agreed, unfortunately... :banghead:
There might be a couple of things in the story, that we can built on, the fact that Bscher knows he sold #022 to Collier as the most apparent.
Yeah - like I said, I don't think there's anyway someone can discredit that point.
But you never know if Collier decided to sell this F1 on and bought another one later.
I have thought about this possibility myself, but the 2003 sale date of #022 from Bscher to Collier still wouldn't allow for Collier to have sold that car to Wyclef, since Wyclef had already had his F1 for almost a year or more by that point.
Shall we start the debate on the colours?
1. Erik, couldn't you have asked Bscher what colour his 022 was, when he sold it? :smokin:
I honestly didn't think to ask him about colors at all. At the time I thought the car was sold "as-is" to Wyclef and then he had the interior changed to suit his own tastes, which was certainly something that car needed. Afterwards I was kicking myself for not at least asking Mr Bscher what he was thinking on the green/yellow interior combination. Possibly if I had pryed into that aspect at the time I would have learned something new right then and there.
2. The off-factory colour of 022 was "Genesis Dark Blue". The car in the picture definately isn't. Did Bscher repaint it? Did Collier?
That's a good question too, and part of what does not make this an open and shut case. Wyclef's car actually looks to be a color one might name "Genesis Dark Blue" even. :screwy:
Interesting........
Interesting indeed. :iceslolan
>8^)
ER
Well for starters, don't confuse the contributor here with the username gerd as being "Gerd Petrik". That's definitely not the case from what I can tell.
Ontopic: a very interesting mystery. Things won't be cleared up, until we see the chassis # plaque, I reckon.
Agreed, unfortunately... :banghead:
There might be a couple of things in the story, that we can built on, the fact that Bscher knows he sold #022 to Collier as the most apparent.
Yeah - like I said, I don't think there's anyway someone can discredit that point.
But you never know if Collier decided to sell this F1 on and bought another one later.
I have thought about this possibility myself, but the 2003 sale date of #022 from Bscher to Collier still wouldn't allow for Collier to have sold that car to Wyclef, since Wyclef had already had his F1 for almost a year or more by that point.
Shall we start the debate on the colours?
1. Erik, couldn't you have asked Bscher what colour his 022 was, when he sold it? :smokin:
I honestly didn't think to ask him about colors at all. At the time I thought the car was sold "as-is" to Wyclef and then he had the interior changed to suit his own tastes, which was certainly something that car needed. Afterwards I was kicking myself for not at least asking Mr Bscher what he was thinking on the green/yellow interior combination. Possibly if I had pryed into that aspect at the time I would have learned something new right then and there.
2. The off-factory colour of 022 was "Genesis Dark Blue". The car in the picture definately isn't. Did Bscher repaint it? Did Collier?
That's a good question too, and part of what does not make this an open and shut case. Wyclef's car actually looks to be a color one might name "Genesis Dark Blue" even. :screwy:
Interesting........
Interesting indeed. :iceslolan
>8^)
ER
bucciali
06-10-2006, 06:15 AM
Well for starters, don't confuse the contributor here with the username gerd as being "Gerd Petrik". That's definitely not the case from what I can tell.
>8^)
ER
Ahh. My bad.
>8^)
ER
Ahh. My bad.
mini magic
06-10-2006, 08:14 AM
Ok. The reason i don't think this is 022 is that there is now ANOTHER new McLaren in the US! 016 is now in the US too. It is the latest McLaren to be brought over. Miles Collier has NEVER owned an F1. He is sort of like a middle man and has been involved in many F1 transactions and i believe this is 016 just about to go to its new owner. I don't know who the new owner is but its not Miles Collier. On the old (and new i assume) Show and Display list, 022 is listed under someone other than Wyclf BUT the person who its listed under is one of Wyclef's assocciates. Trust me, 022 went to Wyclef. I belive that 022 was sold through Collier to Wyclef and that 016 was sold to someone through Collier too and he just happened to have it when this thing happened.
Just my 0.02
Sorry for not telling you this sooner Erik, i just wanted to see if you had found any additional info while i had to confirm this story
btw, you ruined my scan of that pic ;) It was better quality when i sent it to you! :nono: :iceslolan
Just my 0.02
Sorry for not telling you this sooner Erik, i just wanted to see if you had found any additional info while i had to confirm this story
btw, you ruined my scan of that pic ;) It was better quality when i sent it to you! :nono: :iceslolan
Peloton25
06-10-2006, 08:38 AM
For starters - you never sent me a scan of that pic. That's the original image I made from a photo I took of the magazine - not one of my better attempts to be honest. Send me the scan and I will replace the image. :cool:
Secondly, are you sure you are not thinking of Miles Irish, instead of Miles Collier, as the man you reference being a middle man on several F1 transactions. I believe you have the two men confused here.
As for the news on #016, that's pretty cool and you may even be right that the car in the photo is #016 and that Wyclef did have #022. How about some photos of the chassis plaques that bucciali was looking for though? :naughty: :grinno:
>8^)
ER
Secondly, are you sure you are not thinking of Miles Irish, instead of Miles Collier, as the man you reference being a middle man on several F1 transactions. I believe you have the two men confused here.
As for the news on #016, that's pretty cool and you may even be right that the car in the photo is #016 and that Wyclef did have #022. How about some photos of the chassis plaques that bucciali was looking for though? :naughty: :grinno:
>8^)
ER
mini magic
06-10-2006, 09:11 AM
For starters - you never sent me a scan of that pic. That's the original image I made from a photo I took of the magazine - not one of my better attempts to be honest. Send me the scan and I will replace the image. :cool:
You sure about that? I sent that and the pic of the GT that you wanted
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1976/untitled5gr1.jpg
Secondly, are you sure you are not thinking of Miles Irish, instead of Miles Collier, as the man you reference being a middle man on several F1 transactions. I believe you have the two men confused here.
Yes, thats my bad. I just realized and was about to correct myself. Sorry
As for the news on #016, that's pretty cool and you may even be right that the car in the photo is #016 and that Wyclef did have #022. How about some photos of the chassis plaques that bucciali was looking for though? :naughty: :grinno:
I'm working on it :)
btw, you're up early ;)
You sure about that? I sent that and the pic of the GT that you wanted
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1976/untitled5gr1.jpg
Secondly, are you sure you are not thinking of Miles Irish, instead of Miles Collier, as the man you reference being a middle man on several F1 transactions. I believe you have the two men confused here.
Yes, thats my bad. I just realized and was about to correct myself. Sorry
As for the news on #016, that's pretty cool and you may even be right that the car in the photo is #016 and that Wyclef did have #022. How about some photos of the chassis plaques that bucciali was looking for though? :naughty: :grinno:
I'm working on it :)
btw, you're up early ;)
Peloton25
06-10-2006, 09:15 AM
You sure about that? I sent that and the pic of the GT that you wanted
I guess it helps if I actually open the attachments when you send me an email. :loser:
>8^)
ER
I guess it helps if I actually open the attachments when you send me an email. :loser:
>8^)
ER
mini magic
06-10-2006, 09:18 AM
hehe
mini magic
06-10-2006, 12:14 PM
I just realized there is ANOTHER new McLaren hiding somewhere in the US....011. Yep, thats right, 011. If it is 011, its a shame because it was stunning in blue :(
Peloton25
06-10-2006, 05:05 PM
The car in the photo appears to have a road car's nose to me. It also has the standard 17" wheels, and only one car with the HDF Kit (#023 - and really it's not a full kit on that car) still wears the 17's from what I have seen. I don't think we have to worry about this being #011 as I can't imagine anyone would respray that car again, and I can't see anyone paying to have the HDF Kit removed either. (Edit: I see Le Man has added these same observations already in another thread.)
Nice to hear that #011 might be here though. Love that car. :naughty:
>8^)
ER
Nice to hear that #011 might be here though. Love that car. :naughty:
>8^)
ER
mini magic
06-10-2006, 06:58 PM
This is crazy. I can't believe we can't work out which car this is
As i said in the other thread, it guess its possible to unfit an hd kit but i doubt anyone has the guts to do that. I'm sure its a big chunk 'o change to do something like that
As i said in the other thread, it guess its possible to unfit an hd kit but i doubt anyone has the guts to do that. I'm sure its a big chunk 'o change to do something like that
Peloton25
06-10-2006, 07:18 PM
Plus you would more than likely have to pay a premium when purchasing a car that already has it fitted.
>8^)
ER
>8^)
ER
tdc911
06-10-2006, 09:19 PM
This is crazy. I can't believe we can't work out which car this is
I can't believe you both have/had never heard of Miles Collier before. :nono:
I can't believe you both have/had never heard of Miles Collier before. :nono:
Peloton25
06-10-2006, 09:33 PM
Yes - I was somewhat disappointed in myself when I started looking around for info on him after finding the photo in question.
Oh well - can't know everything, right? :grinno:
>8^)
ER
Oh well - can't know everything, right? :grinno:
>8^)
ER
mini magic
06-10-2006, 09:35 PM
I can't believe you both have/had never heard of Miles Collier before. :nono:
I know :(
I know :(
drewwtms
06-12-2006, 01:29 PM
The Collier Museum is in Florida but I'm not sure exactly where. I had e-mailed them a year or two ago about visiting while I was in Florida but no one replied. I got the impression that it was a private collection. While I was in Florida for the Cavallino Classic this past February I heard a few of the participants mention it. It must be an incredible collection to be private and only open to other collectors.
The Collier family built Naples and still owns hundreds of thousands of acres in the Everglades.
The Collier family built Naples and still owns hundreds of thousands of acres in the Everglades.
BMW.WilliamsF1Team
06-12-2006, 01:34 PM
The Collier Museum is in Florida but I'm not sure exactly where. I had e-mailed them a year or two ago about visiting while I was in Florida but no one replied. I got the impression that it was a private collection. While I was in Florida for the Cavallino Classic this past February I heard a few of the participants mention it. It must be an incredible collection to be private and only open to other collectors.
It's the Collier Automotive Museum in Naples, FL, but it's now closed. Of course I can't confirm, but it's according to this site: http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/nurburgring_no2_porsche_9146gt_miles_collier_jon_l owes_photos
Edit: More info
2500 S Horseshoe Drive
Naples
Florida 33940
United States of America
1-813-643-5252
Did you use this e-mail from this site? http://www.collierenterprises.com/
It's the Collier Automotive Museum in Naples, FL, but it's now closed. Of course I can't confirm, but it's according to this site: http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/nurburgring_no2_porsche_9146gt_miles_collier_jon_l owes_photos
Edit: More info
2500 S Horseshoe Drive
Naples
Florida 33940
United States of America
1-813-643-5252
Did you use this e-mail from this site? http://www.collierenterprises.com/
drewwtms
06-13-2006, 01:55 PM
I don't think I would have e-mailed through a website like that. It seems too general and most-probably would have gotten lost. I think I actually found a real e-mail address for someone but I lost it (I might have it at home).
A few guys were definately talking about 'going to Collier's to see his cars' when I was at Cavallino so the collection must still be around - just not open to everyone.
A few guys were definately talking about 'going to Collier's to see his cars' when I was at Cavallino so the collection must still be around - just not open to everyone.
Peloton25
06-13-2006, 03:15 PM
A friend of the program here has confirmed that the F1 now in Collier's possession is indeed chassis #022. They also confirmed that it was the F1 formerly owned by Wyclef Jean as we all believed was true before I started this thread. I'm told that the car was returned to the factory in Woking for a complete refit following the sale, hence the new colors inside and out.
I still find it interesting that Mr Bscher would tell me that he sold his car directly to Collier given that it spent several years in the hands of Wyclef in between. Strange to get that kind of conflicting info, but I do have great faith in the source/accuracy of this latest bit of news.
At least now we know we weren't crazy for calling Wyclef's car #022 for so long. I was a little unsure there for a while. I will update the "American fleet" thread to reflect this info shortly. :cool:
>8^)
ER
I still find it interesting that Mr Bscher would tell me that he sold his car directly to Collier given that it spent several years in the hands of Wyclef in between. Strange to get that kind of conflicting info, but I do have great faith in the source/accuracy of this latest bit of news.
At least now we know we weren't crazy for calling Wyclef's car #022 for so long. I was a little unsure there for a while. I will update the "American fleet" thread to reflect this info shortly. :cool:
>8^)
ER
mini magic
06-13-2006, 06:10 PM
I won't say it :p
;)
;)
Peloton25
06-13-2006, 06:31 PM
When I saw you were the last to reply I was already expecting the "I told you so" post. :grinno:
Of course I never said you were wrong... :nono: I just presented the information I had which seemed to suggest we had all been wrong about #022. I'd still like to get Mr Bscher's to clarify his side of the story, but at least we have the answer we were looking for. One less mystery is always a good thing.
>8^)
ER
Of course I never said you were wrong... :nono: I just presented the information I had which seemed to suggest we had all been wrong about #022. I'd still like to get Mr Bscher's to clarify his side of the story, but at least we have the answer we were looking for. One less mystery is always a good thing.
>8^)
ER
mini magic
06-13-2006, 07:39 PM
Its certainly a very quick turnaround for McLaren to repaint and refit the car in that amount of time. My hat is off to them.
Peloton25
07-06-2008, 10:08 PM
Dragging this thread back from the dead to keep the story intact.
Chris found these new (old) pics of #022 taken outside the Collier Museum, likely around the time that it arrived back in the USA after its $300,000 refit Mr Collier paid for. :cool:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016272tq.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016272tq.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016285yd.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016285yd.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016293it.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016293it.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016310to.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016310to.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016325dj.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016325dj.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016339ax.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016339ax.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016343bn.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016343bn.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016237xc.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016237xc.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc01624noplate2bd.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc01624noplate2bd.jpg)
In fact these were taken in December 2005 before this thread even started. :lol:
The source and some brief details can be found here (http://floridacarclub.com/showthread.php?t=2750). I already contacted the original poster about the one dead/missing image from this set, but he didn't seem eager to go looking for it, so we take what we can get. :)
There's mention of the gearbox overheating in that thread. I would assume that's what McLaren had to send their technician over for, as you may recall Miles mentioned in his Sports Car Market article (http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/860) on the car.
>8^)
ER
Chris found these new (old) pics of #022 taken outside the Collier Museum, likely around the time that it arrived back in the USA after its $300,000 refit Mr Collier paid for. :cool:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016272tq.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016272tq.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016285yd.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016285yd.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016293it.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016293it.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016310to.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016310to.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016325dj.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016325dj.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016339ax.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016339ax.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016343bn.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016343bn.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc016237xc.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc016237xc.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/th_dsc01624noplate2bd.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20F/dsc01624noplate2bd.jpg)
In fact these were taken in December 2005 before this thread even started. :lol:
The source and some brief details can be found here (http://floridacarclub.com/showthread.php?t=2750). I already contacted the original poster about the one dead/missing image from this set, but he didn't seem eager to go looking for it, so we take what we can get. :)
There's mention of the gearbox overheating in that thread. I would assume that's what McLaren had to send their technician over for, as you may recall Miles mentioned in his Sports Car Market article (http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/860) on the car.
>8^)
ER
BRX880
07-07-2008, 11:56 AM
Is it the light, the camera or is there really some green in that shade of grey?
I always thought the car is solid grey with a light terracotta interior seen so in that scaned article...
I always thought the car is solid grey with a light terracotta interior seen so in that scaned article...
Peloton25
07-07-2008, 12:26 PM
These new pictures are skewed a bit towards the blue spectrum likely due to a white balance setting on the camera, but the F1's color is definitely a shade of green. I think the SCM article photos were just not a great representation of the color since it is sitting in a shadow. The earlier photo I pulled from SCM of this car that sparked this thread gives a better impression that it is green I think.
Also, if you read in the thread these new pics are from the first response is:
"Wait a sec is that the same green as my TT?"
To which the original poster replied:
"And yes, it is very similar to your color. First thing I thought of actually."
For those not familiar with the color they are referring to - Audi's Desert Green Pearl looks like this:
http://germancarscene.com/wp-content/uploads/g-werks-tt-7-12-07.jpg
>8^)
ER
Also, if you read in the thread these new pics are from the first response is:
"Wait a sec is that the same green as my TT?"
To which the original poster replied:
"And yes, it is very similar to your color. First thing I thought of actually."
For those not familiar with the color they are referring to - Audi's Desert Green Pearl looks like this:
http://germancarscene.com/wp-content/uploads/g-werks-tt-7-12-07.jpg
>8^)
ER
hurstg01
07-07-2008, 01:06 PM
I like the colour, just like I like Rowans #061 - they are different, and I think this will be a colour that grows on people like #061 did on me
PS thank god he changed the interior from that awful white to something that goes well with the exterior colouring
PS thank god he changed the interior from that awful white to something that goes well with the exterior colouring
basman007
07-07-2008, 02:15 PM
Nice colour on this one :)
svxit
07-09-2008, 02:45 PM
Very interesting thread, this. Several years ago, I remember reading a magazine article on Wyclef where he talked about his cars. The F1 he owned was blue. When asked, he mentioned that the fastest he'd driven the car was 185 mph in Florida. There was a picture of the car in the article. I'm not certain what the 'genesis blue' color is that's mentioned, but from memory it reminded me of XP4 (the car was in a bit of a shadow, but was obviously blue).
I don't believe this article was in a car magazine, so it would be a bit difficult to track down. I have a collection of thousands of magazines, so if I come across it, I will definitely scan and post, but it may be some time before I can do that. Still, just wanted to chime in, in hopes that it gives "some" clarity.
I don't believe this article was in a car magazine, so it would be a bit difficult to track down. I have a collection of thousands of magazines, so if I come across it, I will definitely scan and post, but it may be some time before I can do that. Still, just wanted to chime in, in hopes that it gives "some" clarity.
svxit
07-09-2008, 03:16 PM
I did a search on Google and found picts from the article (but not yet the article itself), and the car appears to be green, but it's difficult to tell. Will keep searching.
http://coolspotters.com/musicians/wyclef-jean/photos_videos#medium-2308
http://coolspotters.com/musicians/wyclef-jean/photos_videos#medium-2308
http://coolspotters.com/musicians/wyclef-jean/photos_videos#medium-2308
http://coolspotters.com/musicians/wyclef-jean/photos_videos#medium-2308
Peloton25
07-09-2008, 03:23 PM
There's plenty of visual references including some short videos floating about for the F1 Wyclef owned. If you can find the magazine that would be great, but we aren't desperate for the pictures like we were with the Black LMs.
The color was indeed a dark metallic blue and he'd had the interior seating done almost completely in white, with a red center section to the driver's seat. The rest of the interior carpet and dash were very dark blue/black/grey. The wheels were also polished during the time he owned it.
What was never confirmed with actual visual proof was the chassis number. However, I think at this point we've gotten together enough circumstantial evidence and outside sources to confirm that it was the same as this car in Mr Collier's hands and the same as the F1 that was originally owned by Mr Bscher, all of which are indeed #022.
It was really just the way Mr Bscher told me about the transaction and seemed to be unfamiliar with "Wyclef Jean" that brought about the "mystery".
>8^)
ER
The color was indeed a dark metallic blue and he'd had the interior seating done almost completely in white, with a red center section to the driver's seat. The rest of the interior carpet and dash were very dark blue/black/grey. The wheels were also polished during the time he owned it.
What was never confirmed with actual visual proof was the chassis number. However, I think at this point we've gotten together enough circumstantial evidence and outside sources to confirm that it was the same as this car in Mr Collier's hands and the same as the F1 that was originally owned by Mr Bscher, all of which are indeed #022.
It was really just the way Mr Bscher told me about the transaction and seemed to be unfamiliar with "Wyclef Jean" that brought about the "mystery".
>8^)
ER
roger_ph
07-10-2008, 01:27 AM
Cannot remember whether I posted this one already but, this is the only picture I took of #022 :banghead:
http://img19.imagevenue.com/loc653/th_70545_3XP5_0_9022_122_653lo.JPG (http://img19.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=70545_3XP5_0_9022_122_653lo.JPG)
http://img19.imagevenue.com/loc653/th_70545_3XP5_0_9022_122_653lo.JPG (http://img19.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=70545_3XP5_0_9022_122_653lo.JPG)
Sauc3
07-24-2008, 12:21 PM
I recently came across an issue of Australian FHM issue #105 which I believe to be have been printed either late last year or early this year. Inside was an article on Wyclef Jean's car collection, amongst which was a McLaren F1.
Unfortunately I was only able to view the article in transit, so I retained very little information, but off the top of my head - and this is by no means concrete - there was a blue F1 in the image next to his red or orange Zonda with him standing in-between. I couldn't say how old the article or image is, but if it's recent is there any chance that he still owns whichever car he has? I've been doing my best on tracking it down - yes, REALLY for one of the articles! - but unfortunately no luck so far, pending an return email from an ebay auction. Fingers crossed, this article could potentially shed quite a bit of light.
Unfortunately I was only able to view the article in transit, so I retained very little information, but off the top of my head - and this is by no means concrete - there was a blue F1 in the image next to his red or orange Zonda with him standing in-between. I couldn't say how old the article or image is, but if it's recent is there any chance that he still owns whichever car he has? I've been doing my best on tracking it down - yes, REALLY for one of the articles! - but unfortunately no luck so far, pending an return email from an ebay auction. Fingers crossed, this article could potentially shed quite a bit of light.
mini magic
07-24-2008, 01:08 PM
Wyclef sold his cars to finance a music project. His F1 is the green one Erik posted above, it was refitted after he sold it
His Zonda went to Dan Kennedy in Scottsdale, AZ. Dan is an ex-F1 owner. Its interesting to note that when Wyclef owned the Zonda, it wasn't here legally. Not sure if it still is or not.
His Zonda went to Dan Kennedy in Scottsdale, AZ. Dan is an ex-F1 owner. Its interesting to note that when Wyclef owned the Zonda, it wasn't here legally. Not sure if it still is or not.
hurstg01
10-16-2008, 11:06 AM
Some more of #022 getting a protective 'bra' over its paintwork in Fremont, California
http://img204.imagevenue.com/loc384/th_72527_2_122_384lo.jpg (http://img204.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72527_2_122_384lo.jpg) http://img171.imagevenue.com/loc877/th_72532_hjlk7dy_122_877lo.jpg (http://img171.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72532_hjlk7dy_122_877lo.jpg) http://img137.imagevenue.com/loc1086/th_72533_3_122_1086lo.jpg (http://img137.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72533_3_122_1086lo.jpg)
http://img197.imagevenue.com/loc116/th_72543_4_122_116lo.jpg (http://img197.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72543_4_122_116lo.jpg) http://img223.imagevenue.com/loc443/th_72549_2785528855_94e08a9766_o_122_443lo.jpg (http://img223.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72549_2785528855_94e08a9766_o_122_44 3lo.jpg)
:)
http://img204.imagevenue.com/loc384/th_72527_2_122_384lo.jpg (http://img204.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72527_2_122_384lo.jpg) http://img171.imagevenue.com/loc877/th_72532_hjlk7dy_122_877lo.jpg (http://img171.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72532_hjlk7dy_122_877lo.jpg) http://img137.imagevenue.com/loc1086/th_72533_3_122_1086lo.jpg (http://img137.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72533_3_122_1086lo.jpg)
http://img197.imagevenue.com/loc116/th_72543_4_122_116lo.jpg (http://img197.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72543_4_122_116lo.jpg) http://img223.imagevenue.com/loc443/th_72549_2785528855_94e08a9766_o_122_443lo.jpg (http://img223.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=72549_2785528855_94e08a9766_o_122_44 3lo.jpg)
:)
BRX880
10-17-2008, 03:47 AM
I love the last pic!
This is probably the first time where we can really judge the colour due to the quality of this shot...
This is probably the first time where we can really judge the colour due to the quality of this shot...
jkbon
10-17-2008, 11:22 AM
Nice !
gerd
10-19-2008, 12:45 PM
His Zonda went to Dan Kennedy in Scottsdale, AZ. Dan is an ex-F1 owner. Its interesting to note that when Wyclef owned the Zonda, it wasn't here legally. Not sure if it still is or not.[/QUOTE]
Dan Kennedy does not own Wyclef's Zonda nor has he ever owned it. I have no reason not to believe Dan.
Dan Kennedy does not own Wyclef's Zonda nor has he ever owned it. I have no reason not to believe Dan.
basman007
10-30-2008, 03:26 PM
I love the last pic!
This is probably the first time where we can really judge the colour due to the quality of this shot...
Agreed, I like it too. As well as the colour, even if it was just for being unique :)
This is probably the first time where we can really judge the colour due to the quality of this shot...
Agreed, I like it too. As well as the colour, even if it was just for being unique :)
hurstg01
01-17-2009, 02:00 PM
2 new pics of #022 in different guises
Wyclef -
http://img257.imagevenue.com/loc587/th_22109_l_6bbce2aec11a4c7fb77430b2d6c63c66_122_58 7lo.jpg (http://img257.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=22109_l_6bbce2aec11a4c7fb77430b2d6c6 3c66_122_587lo.jpg)
Collier-
http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc875/th_22110_l_bb2e0ebcb32a4782a0286fd0075bbe5f_122_87 5lo.jpg (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=22110_l_bb2e0ebcb32a4782a0286fd0075b be5f_122_875lo.jpg)
Wyclef -
http://img257.imagevenue.com/loc587/th_22109_l_6bbce2aec11a4c7fb77430b2d6c63c66_122_58 7lo.jpg (http://img257.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=22109_l_6bbce2aec11a4c7fb77430b2d6c6 3c66_122_587lo.jpg)
Collier-
http://img14.imagevenue.com/loc875/th_22110_l_bb2e0ebcb32a4782a0286fd0075bbe5f_122_87 5lo.jpg (http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=22110_l_bb2e0ebcb32a4782a0286fd0075b be5f_122_875lo.jpg)
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