Motorsports Forum - Success or Failure?

In reference to this thread (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=571067). What's the feeling? I'm interested in any thoughts the people who actually use this folder have on the subject.

I quite like having a separate motorsports section actually.
Having said that I'm ok if it's all blended back into one though, I'm just concerned with the amount of threads and traffic that a single forum would create. I tend to think there needs to be a split in some form for this reason.

I like it seperate as I don't have to weed through pages and pages of threads that are not of my personal interest. I have not had a lot of time to build anything lately as I am always at work like now but I visit AF and have been here more lately since we got the Muscle Car/Hot Rod side as well. I had just flicked over to Scale Auto before and gone straight to their threads on these rather than wade through pages and pages of Skylines etc. Don't get me wrong I have models of Skylines etc as well but they don't give me personally the same buzz. If I see a thread that has a lot of feedback on the other side to Motorsports I will open it and read otherwise I just click back here. If it all goes back into one I will probably visit a lot less and just hit and run the other sites where I can spend my small amount of time available at the moment more productively looking at my personal interests.

I like having the Motorsports section seperate from the street cars. I don't like having the street cars split up though.

Success.

Leave it this way, I really like it.

Success!!
There is far too much traffic in the other sub forum!

I like it this way, this is my subforum.

I agree! Its a success. Leave it!!

success for sure.

I think it fine where its at.

You already know what I think Phil. I like it in older way.

It's fine as it is for me.
Nothing against road cars but with the limited time i have i rather want my treads "pre-sorted" :-)

Success. It is much easier to find the threads of particular interest.

-Mikko

I like it the way it is now. Like other people, I'm much more interested in motorsports builds than looking at Skylines and Civics all the time.
Then again, I joined too late to see the forums non-separated, so I can't really compare.

Absolute success the way it is.

I like it as it is, success!!!

Success for me too - my main modelling interest is motorsport (cars and bikes) so this and the main Car Modeling forum is where I tend to look the most. Keep it please!

I like it like this - please don't change it!!

Malc.

Success!
Even though I am mainly a street car builder I love this seperate motorsport thread. In my opinion the two subjects are different and should be kept so.

I enjoy viewing the different types of work and take inspiration from all!

All right people, before you just post "yeah, success, leave it!" or "no, failure, it sucks!", please include a reason for why you feel how you feel. If Phil wanted a poll, he could easily have made this thread a poll- but a discussion is going to tell us alot more about how the Motorsports section serves or doesn't serve everyone.

Here's how I see it-

In reducing the amount of traffic in the original In Progress/Completed area: Failure. This was appearently the main reason for the split, and in this regard it siphoned off about 1/5 of the traffic volume- not enough to make a real difference. Not that it wasn't a clever idea or an excellent attempt, but it has not accomplished what it was intended to do. Without Motorsport traffic included, Street/Show has barely slowed.

The split also seems to have had the effect of making Motorsports almost a 'backwater boutique', insullating it and many people who build mostly motorsports cars from the rest of the forum. Yes, it definately has made it easier to follow motorsports threads- but it seems hard not to think of this as a form of preferential treatment for a particular segment of the forum.

If we do have a split of Completed from In Progress threads, I wouldn't necessarily argue for the elimination of the Motorsports category- but if the proposed restructuring does what many of us hope, I can't think of many good arguments (other than to keep the 'boutique' feel of the subforum) for keeping it.

Incedently, does it make more sense to have this thread here in the Motorsports section, or in the general area?

Thanks to those who so far responded, keep the opinions coming guys. MPWR is right, I deliberately didn't make this a poll, hoping to draw more comment. But hey, a yay or nay is perfectly fine if that's all you have time for. I posted the thread in here because I wanted the opinion of the people who actually use this forum, rather than those who choose to be 'economical' with their mouse clicks. :)

I think we need to judge this forum on its own merits not on how it affected the Street forum. That was just a sweetener in order to sell the idea to the powers that be. :) Here is my original PM to the mods regards creating something like this subforum way back in late 2003.

I’m writing to seek your impression on an idea. Basically it involves setting up an AF modelling sub-forum.

I belong to an email mailing list for Rally cars and many people have been expressing their dissatisfaction with its current email format. A suggestion was made that it could be an improvement to move to a bulletin board style format. Obviously the best and biggest BB around is AF.

The idea was to see if there is a way to perhaps compartmentalize the competition vehicle models away from the tuners etc. I realize this could potentially create a can of worms but there should be way to make it work. For instance all IPMS comps distinguish between civil and competition categories.

The primary reason why I think we need a racecar sub forum is because of the difference in audience. A lot of people who I’ve tried to interest in AF are turned off by the antics of the tuners and their ‘phat beats’. By separating those more interested in modelling as a historical exercise, then we open up AF to a new niche.

On AF I find myself skipping over the majority of posts to just read those that might interest me, and I’m sure the majority of the street car builders do the same to the race and rally subjects. That is fine and normal but I get the impression those who build racers and rally cars don’t do the muscle or tuner thing and visa versa. A separation will have the effect of streamlining the AF experience for the majority of users.

Also a lot of reference discussion on the modelling forum is often seen as off topic and moved on. In a competition based forum these kinds of discussions could remain, as they are concerned with accuracy and authenticity of historically important vehicles that the members are modelling.

As to where the new sub forum would go. It might be an idea to put it in the Racing section, so we don’t step on anybody's toes? Open to suggestions at this point. This is just a feeler to see how the idea sits with a few of the people running things here. Your impressions would be welcomed.

So to be quite honest, the exclusivity or 'boutique' feel was something I was looking for! Maybe it is a form of preferential treatment, but a necessary one so that our particular branch of the hobby wasn't diluted by the larger numbers of street builders. It is hard to develop a community when the individual members keep losing sight of each other. The creation of the Muscle car/Hotrod forum may perform the same function for that stream of builders. We'll have to wait and see. Yes it is segmenting the Modelling subforum I guess, but given the growth of this place we can't all sleep in the same room anymore. Hopefully the proposed all-in completed subforum will address that.

Are we really a backwater? For sure we don't have the traffic of the street forum but its nice to be away from the maddening crowd. Who wants to be mainstream? :)

I dabble in motorsport and street car /bike building. I like to build motorsport when I’m up for a challenge, as I don’t want to sound condescending, but motorsport models be them car or bike are much more difficult to build then the street counterpart. After all, many motorsport models are based on street cars, with the additions of CF decals, racing livery and sometimes complex mutli coloured colour schemes.

Therefore, many motorsport models or the folks who build them are very passionate about the model they are building. Mostly, as they are a fan of the sport, or build as a form of artistic flare for the real car /bike they are trying to replicate.

I feel that the splitting does offer a ground for the more passionate motorsport builder, but in the end, there are those who build motorsport, and those who do not. I’ve got a taste for vehicles that move carbon based life forms at great speed, so I frequent the sub forum very regular. I’ve contributed in the motorsports section many times, as on balance I’ve bought, and built more motorsport then any other genre.

In fact, my last three builds have been motorsport, and one in progress is motorsport. I however do not like the idea of exclusive. The very idea of “empire building” has always bugged me. Each and every person has a right to any club or meeting or gathering or whatever we class this area as, although I understand this is not what you are promoting, but I say the idea to me of this section being for this who are elite enough to build a motorsport model is not my idea of this section at all.

I think this is more of a gathering of all those who share the enjoyment of building scale replicas of motorsport models, no matter how much traffic it generates. Those who do not build such replicas can then view and enjoy the splendour of motorsport models, whereas those who do can draw and collectively be inspired from the vast amount of information for those who choose to take it.

The splitting does offer a convenient why to watch, share and learn about motorsport models, and for this it should be applauded, but not as an exclusive group, whose only course of membership is to consider yourself more maverick then a street car builder.

Empire building? I hope it doesn't look that way because nothing is further from the truth - we just like building model cars! :)

I actually think AF has changed very much for the better since I wrote the above PM. The "tuner guy anitics" I spoke of are pretty much a thing of the past. The behavior and respect between members, along with the quality of work has been quite awesome lately. Maybe the way we conducted ourselves in this subforum since day one has something to do with that. :dunno:

At first I didn't like the seperate forum but came to realize it makes more sense as racecars often involve more detail therefor the build threads move slower than most street builds.

I wouldn't divide the categories any further though...it would become too fragmented like Scale Auto's forum.

We have been talking about adding a bike forum (well mainly just me :p). Any thoughts on that? Might be a bit too much of a cuture shock to implement right now. Building bikes is very different to cars, or so I've been told. :)

Does anybody appreciate the Max Mosley negotiation technique I'm using here? Unintentional to be sure...

Bikes to me are the most fun models to build mostly because they present a lot of opportunities to airbrush metalizers.

I wouldn't say the techniques are all that different to car building though, just more exposed bare metal than most cars.

Maybe when Revell's new 1/12 chopper series is released we'll see a big surge in bike building, I think they will be very popular.

Well,

Judging from the number of motorbikes built on here, a motorbike subforum is going to be a very lonely area for some. Bikes just do not seem as popular as motorsport, and motorsport isn’t as popular as street.

I’m not sure if this comes down to, again complexities of build. I’ve built all three, street, motorsport, and bike. Out of all three genres, the street is easily the most supported, and in “some” cases less involving. Motorsport models having its own sub forum is fine as long as everyone looks. They will mostly look, as F1, DTM, Rally, JGTC etc are all clumped into this section so they do look to try and find something they like. Whereas bikes, it’s a genre all in its own class.

I find bikes both challenging and rewarding, and I’d be up there posting WIP and builds in a bike forum, but I feel with the lack of bikes already being built, its going to be a bit dearth of traffic. I do not feel a bike forum is needed. Do a search for Enzo or Subaru WRC. Gets a few hits. Search for Yamaha R1. Not so many..!!

I guess I’m one of those who builds a whole range of auto genres. I build street, rally, DTM, imports, Bikes, F1, superbikes etc…. I even have a completed thread in the muscle section… So, I’m the one who would need to check nearly all sub forums, as I build so many types of auto models.. I don’t like to get fixated on one type of model genre. Keeps the boredom from setting in.. LOL

I left AF a long time ago, I believe it was even before the creation of the Motorsport subforum, as I was fed up and tired of having to go through all the street and hot rod stuff. That is not of my interest and therefor I don't really read it. I did check back every now and then and it is only recently that my interest was pinged again by the quality of the builds here. My time is also too valuable to spend too much time on different modeling forums on the net, so I tend to pick and choose. The creation of the Motorsports forum should be considered a BIG success and specialisation brings automatically more quality and that has certainly be the case here.

Arguments as the forum would not be a success because of less traffic etc. does probably come from people who find a kick in reading numbers of their threads and ctr's and what not, but I don't believe it is a valuable argument. I post my stuff because I want to share and not because of traffic and viewing rates, hence the fact that I have been a lot more active on SRC then on AF.

To the mods: you will always, I repeat always, get resistance when implemening a change. That is just part of the human nature. You have people who have the ability to look ahead and forsee what possibly may happen (the changers and believers) and you have those who prefer to keep on going the way they've always done something (I think these are called conservative minded). If you believe that creating another subforum is necessary, then talk it through and do it. The future will show if it was the right thing. And certainly don't listen to those who whine about all the stuff that they so called miss out on. I think they miss it because they are too lazy to go a couple of extra clicks. If you really want to see it, if it really is your cup of tea, then that should not bother one, does it?

My :2cents:

ps. I've copied this message in the other thread as well, as there is valuable information for both in it.

Does anybody appreciate the Max Mosley negotiation technique I'm using here? Unintentional to be sure...
You mean, the "what I say, goes" negotiation technique? :lol:

I understand your points about separate communities, but I disagree with them. I think that the greatest strength of this forum over all others I've seen is the inclusiveness of the modelling community here. I can see stuff built by Brits, Kiwis, Yanks, Poles, Malaysians, Japanese, Chinese, Italians, and even the occasional bloody Aussie :p. I can see stuff by people who build tuners, exotics, rally, muscle, F1, classics, NASCAR, and dozens of others. (And this format especailly welcomes those who build from several or all of these categories.) I believe I have the most to learn with from a community that includes all of these, and I have the most to share with a community like this, too.

If you want a divided community where everyone builds the same thing you do in the same way, there are other forums you can go to. But as inclusiveness has been a real strength in this forum, it would be a shame to destroy that by dividing us into special interest cliques.

I totally don't buy the argument that motorsport and street car builders build using different styles or techniques. I do my motorsports builds exactly the same way I do my exotics. There are plenty of people who build street cars with obsessive rivet counting to create an exact replica of a specific prototype vehicle, and there are just as many people who build motorsports kits who are slamming together curbside kits because they have cool decal schemes, and have almost no familiarity with the prototype they're building, or even the series it raced in. There is much more difference between individual's building styles that there is between categories. Motorsorts car modelling is not different than street car modelling, or even bike modelling. Diecast modelling is different from plastic modelling! And we all build plastic here.

If it's well run, big enough, and cool enough to make people want to be here, there's no reason at all that we can't all sleep in the same room!

At first I didn't like the seperate forum but came to realize it makes more sense as racecars often involve more detail therefor the build threads move slower than most street builds.

I wouldn't divide the categories any further though...it would become too fragmented like Scale Auto's forum.

success, especially if I think back to the time with no sub-forums...:grinyes:

I really like to check both sections but I am more interested in motorsports (I basicly check every thread). It would be my worst dream if the motorsports and street section will be merged back together... I am mean it's hard to keep up if you don't check the forum daily (which isn't the case often :grinno:) and it would be even harder if everything is mixed and you really have to search for your "interests"...

And to be honest I haven't checked the Muscle/Hot Rod forum yet because these types of cars aren't really interesting for me but I sometimes read the threads while i was in the street forum so I guess making much sections isn't really good for everyone...

I was not a member of this forum prior to the motorsport split and therefore can not say it is better or worse than before the split.

What I can say is that what we have now is quick and easy to navigate around. Although I am more motorsport orientated, I do look in the street car section and do make comments regarding the work people do. I do not find it a hassle to click from area to area, and in fact find it good as I know the type of subjects I will be looking at before entering the sub-section.

If people are worried at how quickly the street/muscle/sports etc section turns over, maybe split that into WIP and Completed. Provide a link in the Completed thread to the WIP. If this is done, then maybe we will have 3 sub-sections of a similar size and turn over. This is what seems to be the aim of the initial splitting.

Like others have said, I will just click another button. No hassles.

Feel free to shoot me down with valid arguments.

A definite success; it saves me from reading all the newbie rubbish in the other forum. Although this forum has fewer posts it has much higher quality content on average than the Street and Show section.

A definite success; it saves me from reading all the newbie rubbish in the other forum.

What a terrible inconvienince it must be for you to have to view builds by modelers who just aren't up to your standards. :disappoin Perhaps we should reorganise the forum into 'Newbie Crap' and 'Other Builds' just for you.

My answer will be simple: I build only rally cars !!
then I would never have subscribed to AF if I had to find my way among all street cars.
I already just feel lost sometimes in the motorsport section ! :grinyes:

keep it as it is ! that's perfect !

Phil

I like the seperate sections, as many have posted, it makes it a lot easier to read. Please don't get me wrong, but my personal interest more motorsports. That being said, there are some threads, from moddelers, Scale-Master, MPWR, and others, that do increadable work, that don't always do Motorsports. However, if the subject interests me I read it.

Of course it's a success. I stop here first before I don't anything else on the web. :) Or even start work for that matter.

What a terrible inconvienince it must be for you to have to view builds by modelers who just aren't up to your standards. :disappoin Perhaps we should reorganise the forum into 'Newbie Crap' and 'Other Builds' just for you.Can't agree with you more. There was no reason for him to define it as 'newbie rubbish'.. Everybody starts somewheres. Just because they aren't 100% perfect doesn't mean they're rubbish.

On topic- I think it's better this way. I like dit the other way but this way seems more organized.

I like the separation. Don't see a problem with the added one either. Some forums have so many categories it becomes a pain to navigate. And with so many specialized individual categories, some invariably get left out. It ain't broke... - Mark

I like the separate Motorsport section. Leave it be, please.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was convinced I had written 'reading all the newbie rubbish' rather than 'viewing all the newbie rubbish', but I guess I must be mistaken. I was actually referring to enthusiastic use of urban slang and poor grammar, although newbie is perhaps too generalised.

I really think that the motorsport subforum is a success!

What I don't understand is why people use the word "divide" when the real concept is "organize". Maybe if they replace those words from their posts and read them back they will see that their arguments don't make much sense.

I know AF is great but do we really know why??? can we tell exactly why AF is great?? can we say is just because it has good builders? or just because it has many types of interests? No, we can't point out exactly what makes the FORUM CONTENT's good the fact is that it is, but we can tell how to make it more "organized", in the end, the contents of the forum and the forum itself are two diferent things, one can be improved by talent and friendship and one has to be improved by organization. This is a just a Forum no more, where the contents have to be organized in order to function properly. The contents, the learning and works of art found inside this forum are priceless so an organized way to find those is the logical step no? Just imagine 1 hour spend on the forum and find just 3 or 4 things that call your interests, whatever they are, that is not a friendly GUI :nono:

Well I have expressed my mind -in a very bad english perhaps, sorry!-
Thanks for reading!

Success!

*click*success, *click*success, *click*success, *click*success, :grinyes: :lol:

I love this forum.
It's my favourite on AF. Well done Phil in bring it it to life and cleaning up the rowdy bunch.

Cheers
Nens

I agree with OrangeR. This is just organisational. I use all the modeling forums here to reference my builds. When I build streatstuff, I look in the street section. The same for motorsport. I find it easier to get inspiration and ideas from areas that are already categorised. This is the only forum I look at and it has been fulfilling my needs perfectly. Also because there aren't any skylines/civics on our roads, I don't really have an interest in seeing them. I'm more biased to European cars and bikes. So having the current structure is just that much easier and more enjoyable from my perspective.

if it ain't broke don't fix it:banghead: . Keep it just the way it is. that why it causes dependency. You can view what you really are interested in. If you put everything together than you will have to really start searching for the post that you really want to read. My two:2cents: if it makes any sense:screwy: .
Al

i'm with keeping it as well.

Hey, sorry im so late to respond Phil. Ive been busy. Well ill say this, i would not visit the AF forums if it were not for the Motorsport forum (though that might be a good thing). I am a modeller because of motorsports and this forum is some where i come every day to check out new builds and learn new tips and techniques. I have learned so much from this forum that i cant thank you enough. I usually thumb through the other sections every few days or weekly to see if some other favorite builders are doing anything new. But i at least check out every thread in motorsports. I would hate it if i had to go through all the builds just to find Racers so i say keep it seperate please. I could car less what they do with the rest of the forum but leave Motorsports be. And thank you Phil for being the most Modest, Sincere, and Helpful Moderator on the forum, you have helped me countless times and cant thank you enough ( and not just with modelling either)!

Cheers, Chad

OK, ive read all the replies now and have a couple things to add.

First and Formost: I find that the responses in the motorsport forum may be fewer but i feel they have alot more content. I would rather 2 or 3 constructive replies to my post then 40 "awesome build", "looks great" comments. Here in Motorsports i feel regular users are very knowledgable and passionate about the subjects. And are willing to offer there wisdom to futher inhance the the builds. In the other section i find replies to be alot more one dimensional.

Secondly: I find the over all build quality to be higher in the Motorsport section. Also more indepth build diaries are published here. Not so many im "going to paint it this" or "what rims?". Its overall a more mature and refined forum.

Third: There are very few places on the web for us Motorsport builders. There are some good boards but are slow and are more discusion based. You find many members here on other Motorsport forums. Its badly need for us builders to have our works seen by few enthusiast and not just a bunch of shine and rim whores. Sorry, i just feel the Motorsports forum is a global community for us race addicts and i feel it would be a real loss to all of us if it were disbanded.

Thats all for now,

Chad

Okay thankyou for your candour everybody. My curiosity has been satisfied. I hope nobody has gained the impression the Motorsport forum is going anywhere. I was simply seeking confirmation that my perception wasn't wrong after it was branded a failure elsewhere. The vastly overwhelming percentage of positive comment in this thread simply confirms that we've got something worth keeping here. :) Thanks again guys.

Oh and I hope nobody has the wrong idea that we think ourselves better than anybody else. We're just a little bit different and safer to the public at large if keep quarantined! :screwy: :D