infamous windstar 3.8L intake gasket

hey everybody,
first time poster here. well, i had to replace the lower intake gasket and it went well but now i have air leaking in and whistleing at the lower intake/head contact area. bummer. i had all surfaces spotless clean, no dings or nicks or scratches of any kind on mating surfaces. the gaskets were made of rigid plastic with rubber rings injection molded into them. manual made no mention of using any gasket sealer of any kind here, other than the china wall so i used it there only. was that wrong? old gasket was identicle and had no sealer on it either. also it called only for torqueing the intake bolts to 70-97 inch pounds(10-12 NM). that at the time seemed awfully light to me?? i am going to try to pull off the upper manifold and retorque the lower bolts again one by one(loosen #1 and retorque, loosen #2 and retorque and so on) to see if that helps. should i go tighter? it seems to me that there should be foot pounds of torque, rather than inch pounds. let me know what you think and thanks for the input in advance:banghead: ...........brian

hey everybody,
first time poster here. well, i had to replace the lower intake gasket and it went well but now i have air leaking in and whistleing at the lower intake/head contact area. bummer. i had all surfaces spotless clean, no dings or nicks or scratches of any kind on mating surfaces. the gaskets were made of rigid plastic with rubber rings injection molded into them. manual made no mention of using any gasket sealer of any kind here, other than the china wall so i used it there only. was that wrong? old gasket was identicle and had no sealer on it either. also it called only for torqueing the intake bolts to 70-97 inch pounds(10-12 NM). that at the time seemed awfully light to me?? i am going to try to pull off the upper manifold and retorque the lower bolts again one by one(loosen #1 and retorque, loosen #2 and retorque and so on) to see if that helps. should i go tighter? it seems to me that there should be foot pounds of torque, rather than inch pounds. let me know what you think and thanks for the input in advance:banghead: ...........brian


Brian

Check out this link: http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html

It may help you.
Dan

thanks lesabre,

wrong engine though. that might be a 3.0L i still need to know about the torque and if i should use sealer on the gaskets........anybody?......thanks

forgot to mention mine is a 1996 windstar, the picture on the above link is newer i think

My experience is with a '99, and may be of no help to you whatsoever.

Grey sealer was called for only where the gaskets/seals met at an angle. As I recall, there were flat "seals" across the block ends, and "gaskets" (at an angle) against the heads. There was a tightening sequence, first tightening at 45 in-lbs .... and a final at 87 in-lbs. That would be approx 10 NM.

I would NOT recommend any further tightening. Some poster has broken bolts in the intake manifold area.

I would guess some gasket or seal is out of place ... or for the wrong model. For some years the gasket thickness changes by a MM.

Brian,
I also have a 96 with the 3.8L engine and I did the lower intake gasket repair a couple of years ago. This may not help much but at least may give you a sanity check. It sounds as though you did everything correctly.

Per my Ford manual, the torque range is 71 - 106 in-lb and I used those values and I went in the proper sequence. In fact, I may have torqued them in sequence initially to a lower value and then again to the final value in sequence. I only augmented the gasket with gasket sealer/RTV on the "ends" of the block where they meet the lower intake. The surface between the heads and the lower intake I simply used the gasket with no additional sealer. I used the Felpro brand of gaskets and they are as you described. I used whatever 12 Ounce (then known as Fordfan) recommended at the time for RTV/sealer - the permatex grey i believe.

I agree with 12Ounce, do not overtorque the bolts and make sure that when you put sealer on the ends that you get some sealer in the crevice where at the corners here the "ends" of the block meet the cylinder heads.

Good Luck and I hope you figure out where the leak is.

George

thanks 12 oz & pooh,

yeah, i did the two stage tightening in the proper sequence, just can't figure out why its leaking unless there is warpage of the heads or intake itself. wierdest thing is it runs great and so far no engine lights have come on after daily running for 3 days:screwy: ?.........thanks anyways although im still baffled. have the upper off right now, got a road tripp in the A.M., so back tro the drawing board i guess

I've got to chime in about not to over torque those bolts. I changed these gaskets on my 2000 3.8 not long ago and as memory serves, I think that it was possible to get that plastic strip with the silicone seals reversed where the lower intake rests against the heads. The right end where the left end should be sort of thing. Murphy often gets in here. If there is a 50 50 chance of getting it wrong, 99 times out of a hundred you'll get it wrong.

Something I do sometimes to more closely locate a sound like a squeek or vac leak is to use a small diameter piece of tubing long enough to put one end into my ear and move the other end around the area to more closely locate where the sound is coming from. You already have the upper manifold off so, I would go ahead and drain the coolant back out of the lower intake manifold and check those gaskets to see if one of them is in backwards since no one else has reported a problem with them here on this forum. It is impossible to remove that lower intake manifold without getting some coolant spilling into the inside of your engine, so an engine oil and filter change after you get it all back together would be advisiable here.

Oh, one other thing. Using the Ford manifold torque pattern pictures can be misleading. The pattern shown on my 2000 manual is one short of the actual number of upper intake bolts and you may fail to tighten one of them if you stick very close to that Ford manual! This is the voice of experience here. Experience is what you have left over after you make a mistake. I've also found the wrong torque values for a bolt in the step by step instructions and pictures in this Ford manual and one of them was on one of the power steering pump bolts if memory serves. The torque values for the lower intake that you quote are about right. If the torque values shown in the step by step instructions look odd, check their chart for those torques usually located at the beginning or end of a chapter. Those torque spec charts seem to be pretty reliable in the Ford manual.

Let us know how it goes.

Jim

OF,

My '99 manual was wrong on the number of maniifold bolts also ... by two, I believe. The Haynes has it correct!

There are a number of mistakes all through this Ford manual ... some can be misleading. Some are laughable ... such as the diagram showing the relationship of items in the ac/heater dash plenum.

The '99 3.8L engine shown in the link has a MUCH different intake manifold.
The older windstars do NOT have the problem with the upper intake manifold sealing.
'99 was a major change year.
'96 through '98 use pretty much the same intake.....The lower intake manifold gaskets are not very good (they supposedly improved them.....so the replacements should be better).
The front timing cover gasket has also been improved, so the replacement will be better.

I do know that I have seen both 3mm and 4mm lower intake manifold gaskets listed for my '96 3.8L I do not know which size is correct.

well that is my next question.........which to use, 3mm or 4mm thickness?!?
auto parts guy said "use the 4 mm, it gives you a little extra protection". if the injector o-rings were leaking (yes i cleaned and oiled them while the were out) would they suck air or blow air, or what? i listened with a hose and seem to hear the air around the middle injector area of the manifold but they are so close together its hard to tell.
had road trip to south side of milwaukee yesterday, 240 mile round trip, no check engine lights, no loss of power or gas milage, just that steady air sucking, whistle sound, maybe its normal? was never there before........:wink:

Brian

Have you tried spraying carb cleaner around the gasket area when the engine is running? When carb cleaner is sprayed around a leaky intake gasket the engine speed will change....up or down. Either way if the speed changes you have a leak....time to pull the intake off again and review the situation.

Another thought....check for a vacuum hose that you may of missed getting put back on. One would think that would turn on the CEL..???

Regards

Dan

Down here yesterday?.....we could have looked at it together.
I would also expect that you should have had a CEL if there was a vaccum leak to make that kind of noise.
I did have my PCV valve out of the gromet....and it was noisy.
Also, as mentioned.....lots of vaccum lines connect to the rear of the upper intake manifold.....any one of which can be bumped off.....or maybe not be on firmly.
Check the inside of the elbow for the PCV line connection on top of the upper intake manifold.....look for cracks on the inside of that elbow.

If you have that lower intake manifold snugged up....and not having any coolant loss, I have to think that it is the correct one.

I guess you could have a leak at a injector seal...but with all the work to get to that, I would want to be more sure. The carb cleaner spray (carefully...not much at any one time) might help you to track down the sound.

But then, mine makes a small sound.....a faint whistle sound....which is normal....and I would think that, unless it is really loud...... as long as you have no CEL, and it is running great.....that you are in good shape.

Continue to monitor the coolant, to make sure that you have that issue solved.

This is a very informative discussion.
Thank you for all these very useful tips on this topic:cool: