Kick panel enclosures

Are kick panel enclosures all they're cracked up to be as far as improved staging, etc? I'm looking at some component setups, and most people have recommended kick panel enclosures over putting the woofer in the door, and the tweeter higher up...with that in mind, is Q Logic the only company that sells preformed kick panels, or would I be better off making a pair myself? (I have no fiberglass experience, but would love the oppertunity to learn if it's within reason as far as skill needed goes...)
Sorry for all the questions, and thanks in advance.

wow .. an actual SQ question, better jump on this one :rofl:

in a word, yes ... kickpanel mounting minimizes pathlength difference better than any other mounting except in some cars (like the chrysler cab forward designs) in which mounting them in the dash as far forward as possible is actually better.

For midbass frequencies - the ONLY thing that matters in creating a phantom center image is pathlength difference, so door mounting is a poor option.

For midrange frequencies - it relies on pathlength differences AND intensity, so you need to angle the drivers for best effect. Generally you point the midrange at the rearview mirror and work from there.

For high frequencies - it relies almost entirely on intensity. You have two options for the tweeters (or maybe 3). The first (and generally the best) is to mount the tweeters as close to the mids as possible and in front - the mids should be in the back so they are farthest away. The second is to mount them on/in the dash as far to the front and to the sides as possible (i.e. right next to the A-pillars). Point the tweeter at the windshield, mount them so that the driver or passenger cannot see ANY of the front of the tweeter directly. The third is to do 1 & 2 together, but de sure to crossover the dash tweeter high, like 8-10Khz. If you choose method one and your stage image seems low, let me know and I will tell you how to fix that.

If you buy the qlogic, make sure you stiffen it up by putting dynamat, fiberglass or both on the inside before you install it. If you don't, they will most likely resonate.

Thank you very much for that answer...very comprehensive. I was under the impression that the tweeters should be pointed straight at the listener, but I guess not. Would mounting the tweeters in the kick panels not be worth it then, since they would be pointing at the driver? If I'm understanding this right, that would be good to mount them there, so long as they're mounted by the woofers in kick panel, but this configuration would also point the tweeters at the driver, which isn't desirable(?) Thanks a lot for all your help!

Thank you very much for that answer...very comprehensive. I was under the impression that the tweeters should be pointed straight at the listener, but I guess not. Would mounting the tweeters in the kick panels not be worth it then, since they would be pointing at the driver? If I'm understanding this right, that would be good to mount them there, so long as they're mounted by the woofers in kick panel, but this configuration would also point the tweeters at the driver, which isn't desirable(?) Thanks a lot for all your help!


It depends on the tweeters. Sometimes it's better to have it directy at the listener, sometimes it may not. Reason you can mount the tweeters (conventional dome tweeters) off axis because the sound waves are distributed in a uniform pattern. Metal type tweeters are more forgiving when it comes to mounting off-axis. Of course, there are exceptions.

If the tweeters are not made to be pointed directly at the listener, and you happen to point it to the listener, it can sound unnatural and perhaps even fatiguing.

Ok, thanks for that. On a similar kick panel question...is it best for the midrange speakers/woofers to be aimed at the driver's head, or the area between the passanger and driver? Sorry for all the questions, but the answers are very helpful.

I answered that on the midrange freq section ..... you aim the mids at the dome light where rear view mirror is. They almost always sound better when neither of them is pointing directly at you. Once you get everything done, you might find that reversing polarity on the passenger side midrange speaker will help your imaging a little, you have to experiment. If you use tweeter mounting option 2 (mounting them up high) it may sound better if both mids are wired out of phase.

Ok...I think I've decided to try my hand at making my own enclosures both to save money, and just because I want to try something new. I really appreciate your helping me figure out how to aim the speakers...I'll try and get some pictures up when I finish them, though it'll probably be a few weeks...damn school :)

i think paul explained pretty well

as far as fiberglassing goes, i didn't know how to fiberglass, and i picked up it really easily. You won't be making q logic type kicks unless you're already good at that stuff, but if you want to start, it will just take some time. I give it 1 week, 2 at the most for your kicks to go from start to finish (for a beginner)

http://web.njit.edu/~cas1383/proj/main/

^there's a link to get you started

paul.. im confused abotu your 1st post.. youre sayin that tweeters should be closest to you and mids should be behind the them??? and angled from the dash to fire right at the rierview? what? as in the mids should be way up in the dash by the windshield and the tweets should be as close to you as possible on the dash but pointing at the windshield? im so confused.

if this is the case why would you recommend kick panels? usually with premade ones the kicks are in the corner of your floorboards facing right at you with the tweets facing you too mounted right on top of the mids.

can you simplify a little?

why do the mids and tweeters need to be as close as possible? why is the door a bad spot for the mids?

The mids and tweets should be as close to each other to eliminate pathlength differences and reduce separation (where you can tell that the tweet is high and the mid is low even when you close your eyes). These are pretty normal problems when you're using passives and you separate the mids and the tweets, if you go active and play with the time correction, cutoff frequency and cutoff slopes you can greatly help, if not completely eliminate both of them even if you have quite a bit of room between the mids and tweets.

The door is a fine spot for midbasses, but it's bad for midranges because they're pointed right at each other. You're almost 90 degrees off axis from the driver's side mid, and maybe 40 degrees off axis from the passenger side mid. The resulting frequency response from each side will be very different, off axis angle plays a big part in frequency response for higher frequency drivers.

i dont understand how to build sealed kicks

if you go active and play with the time correction, cutoff frequency and cutoff slopes you can greatly help, if not completely eliminate both of them even if you have quite a bit of room between the mids and tweets.


:werd:


my buddy has his mids in doors while his tweeters on the a-pillar all the way in the corner. It sounds beautiful with no hints of separation.


I also prefer shallow slope (particularly 1st and 2nd order) when it comes to xover. It sounds more natural to me and blends in better. When I switch to 4th order, it sounds separated and artificial. :headshake

Here is my setup:

HP midbass- 63hz @ 12db
LP midbass- 300hz @ 6db
HP midrange- 600hz @ 6db
LP midrange- 1400hz @ 18db
HP tweeter- 2200hz @ 12db


:D

i thought you had horns...looser :licka:

Hey gsteg, does your buddy have the passenger side mid out of phase?

i thought you had horns...looser :licka:

Sold them. I'm using ribbon tweeters now :naughty:

Hey gsteg, does your buddy have the passenger side mid out of phase?


Nope. All drivers are in phase. Usually you are able to help imaging by putting the mids out of phase, but that will present another problem if you're running it 2-way. Your midbass output will probably be reduced being that they're out of phase. So my friend instead worked on driver positioning until he got the imaging he wants, or at least close to perfect. Then use a bit of time alignment to fully correct it.

Flipping the phase of the driver will only help in some cases.

Just to see the difference, I flipped my mids out of phase and instantly I got a hollow sound. Flipped it back and vocals became very clear and focused. I imagine those who have the hollow sound should put their mids out of phase.

:p

ok.. i think im starting to get this a little more .. my problem is im gonna be gettign into an SQ project with my car and dont knwo where to begin.

i have a ford explorer with 5x7 coaxial holes right where your leg would rest on each door. as if this isnt a bad enough situation, theres a bar in the door liek 2 inches from the speaker mount in the back.. so anything in the door has to be shallow. the floors dont have a whole lot of room for kicks IMO. and i dont knwo ANYTHING abotu glassing to make custom pods on each door out of the way. i also dont know naything about SQ or where i should even begin.

so thats why im so curious about the best places in the car to mound different stages.. cause im pretty limited with options. either of you seen a decent sq setup in a 2 door explorer?

Sold them. I'm using ribbon tweeters now :naughty:


Which ones?

I'm considering ribbons, but the gigantic flange is really turning me off. I've been looking at the Fountek NeoCd3.0R and AC G2Si

Andon, I know how you feel. A few days ago I sat into my friend's 95' explorer and you're right. Space is very limited. If you're not great with making kick pods, the next best thing is to buy premade pods. Here is the most popular one. The only restriction is that you're only able to fit 5.25" mids.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-4iot5nDsZEM/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=182850&I=044K200656

The explorer is very restricted in stock form. The only way to get around it is if you make your own kicks.

hgaha holy shit 150 for those? i REALLY wish i could glass now.. i might have to learn. but with kicks like those would you suggest runnign them the way they are with the tweets right above them? seems like it wouldnt sound so great with all of your soundstage at your feet.. would it be better for me to mount tweets on the dash and mids in the doors or woul dthis be worse than those q forms kicks?

hgaha holy shit 150 for those? i REALLY wish i could glass now.. i might have to learn. but with kicks like those would you suggest runnign them the way they are with the tweets right above them? seems like it wouldnt sound so great with all of your soundstage at your feet.. would it be better for me to mount tweets on the dash and mids in the doors or woul dthis be worse than those q forms kicks?


You soundstage wont be that low. The tweeters will be angled up a bit and if you just close your eyes, you'll notice that the staging is actually higher. It wont be floor level, unless you put in some bad speakers. lol.

Because you're limited on space, mounting the mids in kicks and then tweeters up on dash might not be the best idea. you'll be sitting too close to the tweeters and will hear separation between the drivers. If you can glass, make the pods on the door. and aim it as if they were in kick panels. Then put the tweeters on the dash if you can, but dont point the tweeters directly at you. Maybe face them each other. The best thing to do with the tweeters is to play with them before you put them in. I know I had to spend countless hours with my setup before it could sound right, and thats just driver positioning. Haven't gotten to tuning yet.

fiberglassing kickpanles is incredibly easy. i used that site as a guide and looked at some pictures of other cars for inspiration. First i looked at my car to determine where i want the speakers and how they should fit. then i used the existing plastic peice as a guide, built and MDF structure to hold the speaker, covered it tightly in cloth, then resined and glassed it, sanded and painted. Even with my crappy Alpine Type S speakers it made a huge difference compared to the door mounting location. give it a try its alot of fun! :smile:

Which ones?

I'm considering ribbons, but the gigantic flange is really turning me off. I've been looking at the Fountek NeoCd3.0R and AC G2Si

I use to have the AC G2si, but now I'm using the LCY 108s. The flange isn't really that bad though.

If anything, skip the fountek. The plastic casing might not be durable enough.

I would spend the extra to go with the LCY. The AC was harder to get into the right position. Horizontal dispersion was crap and vertical was so-so, but it'll take a while to get it sounding right. With the LCY, it's so much easier to work with. Very little vertical disperion loss. I have no regrets going with the LCY. More detailed, smoother, and better staging/imaging out of the box.

These ribbons are very pure sounding. It sounds great in car. In home mated with the Seas excel is just...heaven :D