Fastest, Coolest, Affordable Car??

Ok, I have 23k to play with and i want something that can smoke at least 80% of cars on the road yet still has some insane looke. At the same time I do not want a muscle car because ive had 2 transams and a camaro and, no offense but the handling sucks. whats your opinion, whats the best streetable affordable car?

Well for 23k...I would look to perhaps a slightly used Evo RS or GSR. They come w/271HP, AWD and really fast out of the box. So perhaps you could snag one for 23k. If not...the WRX is definitely an alternative...227, AWD and fast...great aftermarket support and for like 4k invested to Vishnu or other WRX tuners...you could easily have a car that could push out around 320-350 hp crank

Other cars you might consider...perhaps the 300ZX TT, RX7 TT, Supra TT (if you could snag one), 3000GT VR4, E36 M3...

Get a Honda S2000 for maybe $17-18k, turbo kit for $5k, and the chicks shall come.

And The Chick Shall Come. Its Only One Seat.

What's the point of turbocharging an S2000? The motor is extremely high compression and makes strong use of VTEC; it was obviously meant to be N/A. You'd have to do so much work to the motor to efficiently turbocharge it that it'd hardly be worth it. Anyways, my recommendation goes to a slightly used 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX sedan, preferrably in WR Blue Mica and with a manual transmission.

Some cars to consider:

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII: Might be tough to find one under $23k, but this car is going to offer you some of the best power and handling for the money. It looks mean (some don't like the styling, but I do), and it has the power to back it up. Since it's a sedan, it is going to be practical as well.

Audi S4: It shouldn't be too hard to find the older 2.7 Bi-Turbo S4 for under $23k. This car is not as fast as the Evo and doesn't have as bold of a look, but it is a lot nicer. Although it isn't the fastest thing you can afford in your price range, it will certainly beat most cars on the road while offering comfort/luxury/etc.

Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo: For the price you are looking at, you could get a Twin Turbo Z in excellent condition with low miles. The Z wouldn't be as practical as the first two, and it is an older car, but it will still beat most cars on the road, and it's design is timeless.

Honda S2000: Very fun car to drive. You can easily find one for under $20k, and they come with Honda's excellent reliability. This car would probably be comparable to the 300ZXTT in terms of performance, but it's newer and looks better in my opinion.

Chevrolet C5 Corvette: Probably the fastest of the cars listed here and handles well too. Although Corvettes are a dime a dozen, there is a reason for it. They offer some of the best performance for the money and it's one of the best looking non-exotic car in my opinion.

Ok, I have 23k to play with and i want something that can smoke at least 80% of cars on the road yet still has some insane looke. At the same time I do not want a muscle car because ive had 2 transams and a camaro and, no offense but the handling sucks. whats your opinion, whats the best streetable affordable car?

Well you're going to have to break it down just a little bit more here. The cars below are great cars but with their 0-60 times as shown you won't beat 80% of cars out there.

Evo 5.1
Audi 5.5
300ZX 5.5
S2000 5.4

The "crappy handling muscle cars" like the '03/'04 Cobra or SS Camaro will smoke these things. The up side is in the curves these cars will run away from them AND get better gas milage. Don't get me wrong here these are great cars but they're not drag racers.

I think Dave here has the best car option and that's the Corvette. It has great handling like these cars but can be a great drag car as well. Also it has a huge aftermarket so you can have lots of fun there.

I thought of a car though that could be a great buy. An early '90's Porshe 911, I think, would be a fun car. It handles good, is pretty quick, and is real sexy. I've seen them around my area in the low 20 grand price range so it shouldn't be hard to get one. This is just an example though.

It all depends on what you want to use the car for. I personally would 23k would look towards those supras because they hold a high resale value if you decide on selling it later on, it has a huge aftermarket, they are suppose to handle excellent, accelleration on the freeway is suppose to be good and also the 2JZGTE is a powerful and reliable engine.

Or like someone said a C5 would be a good car to get. They handle well and yo ucan find alot of parts out for them. I believe it is the same chasis as the Z06, and those Z06's are even suppose to handle better than the NSX. I'm sure the C5 can do the same with some suspension. This is all second hand information however, I'm not sure really.

the Evo is a nice car but it just doesn't seem too classy in my opinion. Yes it is a beast and it is fast as hell, I sure wouldn't mind one, but when it comes down it it all the shap and design doesn't seem to be as attractive as the two doors out there... just a personal opinion.

Good luck though on whatever you choose to pick.

i say get a 300zxtt for 14 grand and put 4 grand into it.

Well you're going to have to break it down just a little bit more here. The cars below are great cars but with their 0-60 times as shown you won't beat 80% of cars out there.

Evo 5.1
Audi 5.5
300ZX 5.5
S2000 5.4



Dude...if we consider all the cars on the road...coupes, convertible, sedans, trucks, SUV's, vans, and mini vans...I dont think 80 percent of them are doing 0-60 in 5.5 seconds or faster...

Sure cars are getting faster and so are some trucks and SUV's. But consider the vast majority of the cars dont go that fast...I mean there are only a few cars that do it under 4 seconds...only about maybe 20 or so that go under 5 seconds...then about an additional 20 that are around the 5.5 and under bracket...so you arent talking about a huge number that you will run into all the time...

all the options people have thrown at u are great but since u seem to be more about style and handling than balls out speed id look into an old nsx (since its like the only car not listed) but damn, 23k could damn near get u a brand new stang which will handle way better than an old camaro, i think u owe it to yourself to test drive one... but if ur really turned off to muscle id go for the supra hands down.

Hey what about an 03 mustang cobra? 390 hp (i think) good handling.

if you want true timeless cool then go with the 911.
granted on your budget you won't be looking at a 993 (or newer) but heck, look after it well and when it's time to sell on, you'd most probably get what you paid for it.

just make sure you get a later model with a fully galvanised steel chassis...

Well I'll suggest up some cars that have probably already been suggested.


3000gt VR4 - used these run anywhere from 6k-20k depending on the condition and mileage. These things run mid 13's stock and low-mid 13's with the addition of a $20 boost controller. They come with all the stuff you'd ever want really. The interior is nicer than any of the new "race inspired" cars I've seen being put out lately and its coupled with an engine that pushes 320hp and an AWD transmission. This is obviously my dream car

300zxtt - these can be found at around the same prices as the vr4 can be (probably cheaper) and are considered to be highway monsters stock. The 300zxtt has RWD, a pretty good interior and what I believe is a 300hp rated twin turbo v6. The only major complaints I've heard about this car is that the engine bay is very hard to work with. I'm pretty sure these run mid 13's stock as well.

Turbo DSM (1st or 2nd gen talon/eclipse/laser) - This is by far the best car for the cheapest price. The fwd versions of these cars are sold for very cheap and while the awd versions are rare, they still sell for cheaper than the above 2 cars do. You can buy an awd version for anywhere from 2k-10k and simply put $1,500 or less in mods to it and have it running low-mid 13's. The fwd version is not far behind and is classified as a highway monster as well but traction issues concerned with a fwd vehicle may be a turn off.

240sx - I know what you're thinking, stock 240's aren't fast right? Right, stock in America they aren't. There is a japanese engine swap that is very popular in these cars called the sr20det (also available are the rb20det, rb25det and rb26dett... I'm not even getting into the ca18det)
But basically since you can find 240's cheap as anything you could get a cheap one with a good interior and exterior and have the engine motorset swapped into it.
The pros of this transfer
-Engine is usually guaranteed to have 30-60k miles on it (tranny comes with)
-200 turbocharged horses in a light car is fun
-mods become about as cheap as for a dsm
-240 makes good use of horsepower
-Said to run 11's with 325whp

Cons of the swap
-hard to find a good shop that specializes in the swaps
-swap can take a lot longer than expected
-swap can be more money than expected
-some say the swap isn't as good as just putting a turbo on the original ka24de engine.


V8 mustang - With the money you have to play with you'll be able to find one of these fine within your range and those v8's take pretty nicely to mods. If you like that badass leaky valve engine sound then the v8 stang would be a good choice new or old. With good tires and a single bolt on (doesn't matter whether its intake, headers or exhaust to me) I'm pretty sure a good driver can nail those high 13's and with gears and a full i/h/e setup you'll be seeing low 13's


This list could go on but I was just listing some of the cars I would go for if I were you. Personally if I had that cash and wanted to use all of it I would scour the area for a used is300 for around $20,000 and turbocharge that.... I just think they look sexy as hell with a turbo and exhaust.

what about an rx-7 or an rx-8. In 06 there bring a supercharged model to the rx-8, and they are also bring back the rx-7 you might want to check it out.

but otherwise the 300zx is your best bet with the twin turbo, and then do a turbo upgrade, you'll be of the chart, but i guess the rx-7 has a twin turbo 2, but its alot smaller.

A lot of you are forgetting that he cares more about handling and styling than straight-line speed, so make sure to comment on that too.

E36 BMW M3!

Rated best handling car over $30,000 by C&D, beating out the NSX, F355, Supra TT, Viper, Boxster, 911, Corvette, and some others.

240hp, RWD, luxury interior, great styling. You could probably get one for under $20,000, and spend the rest upgrading it. Beautiful car. Ultimate combination of luxury, power, and handling.

Rated best handling car over $30,000 by C&D, beating out the NSX, F355, Supra TT, Viper, Boxster, 911, Corvette, and some others.

That's about the fifth time you've said that on this forum. I don't know in what context C&D said that, but there is no way an E36 M3 can truly outhandle those cars. Maybe it "feels" the nicest, as I know that BMWs generally do, but it's going to get smoked by a Corvette, NSX, 911, or any other flat-out sports car.

Not neccisarily the feel, because no car feels better at your fingertips than a 993 911 (Well on this side of an F355 anyway). From Dinans list it'll definitely outhandle a Supra, a Viper and an older 911, as well as a Corvette (If the Corvette is on the standard rubbish tyres that Chevrolet put on them).

But I don't see an M3 outhandling an MR car to be fully honest (Such as the NSX, F355 and even the Boxster).


Anyway, if you want cool and fast, either a Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (If you can live with an Auto), Audi S4 2.7 or an M3 E36. While there are many Japanese and American cars that are fast, very few are "cool" so to speak, with perhaps the exception of an FD RX7, Corvette or an NSX. The majority of the rest have that "AW BRO DO A SKID" stigma attatched to them and don't have nearly the class of a mid-90's German car.

The E36 would be a heck of a car. And I remember the C&D issue where it was voted world's best handling car. Numbers were a factor in that test, but flat fun to drive was the biggest reason it won. Isn't that the whole point anyway? If numbers were all that mattered, we would see alot more SRT-4s on the road, wouldn't we?

I would have to think hard between the BMW M3, Audi S4, Mercedes C43 and Corvette. I think the Corvette is decently classy (at least more so than an F body or Mustang), and has the best numbers overall. I love the biturbo Audi, but I think the M3 may be the more reliable car. On the other hand, the Audi would be easier to modify. And the C43... My brother has one, and whenever I drive it I find myself wishing it was a manual. But then again, that car may be one of the most awesome sleepers ever created. Very few people seem to know what it is. I've spanked a couple of regular GT Mustangs in it, and the looks on the drivers' faces are absolutely priceless. They don't know whether to shit or go blind. A doofus in an IS 300 ran us once and followed us into a parking lot to ask if we "sprayed" on him. We just laughed and opened the hood. Even then he still had to stare for a few minutes before he realized it was a V8. Maybe people in more metroploitan areas are familiar with the car, though. Hmmmmm. I think I'm stuck between the Benz and the BMW.

but otherwise the 300zx is your best bet with the twin turbo, and then do a turbo upgrade, you'll be of the chart, but i guess the rx-7 has a twin turbo 2, but its alot smaller.

3000gt vr4 and supra are both twinturbo also.

The majority of the rest have that "AW BRO DO A SKID" stigma attatched to them

and this makes them not as good or better because...???


and don't have nearly the class of a mid-90's German car.

right...and by class you mean what??? heated seats???

i find the 3000GT VR4 and 300zxTT just as classy as a E36 M3 or a RX7 TT...

they sure as hell come with the same or more features that set them apart from the crowd.
-electronic aero
-4 wheel steering
-adjustable suspension
-electronic heated outside mirrors

maybe i just dont understand what you mean by classy??? just because its german or because it has less agressive lines???

maybe i just dont understand what you mean by classy??? just because its german or because it has less agressive lines???

Unfortunately, many (not all) European car buyers like to think that they are "above" everyone else, that their product is superior just because it's European. They have trouble seeing past the badge on the hood, and into the car itself. They just can't grasp that although Toyota, Nissan, and Honda specialize in making economy cars, they are also very capable of making world-class performance cars. It's just your common, everyday ignorance; don't let it get to you.

and this makes them not as good or better because...???



right...and by class you mean what??? heated seats???

i find the 3000GT VR4 and 300zxTT just as classy as a E36 M3 or a RX7 TT...

they sure as hell come with the same or more features that set them apart from the crowd.
-electronic aero
-4 wheel steering
-adjustable suspension
-electronic heated outside mirrors

maybe i just dont understand what you mean by classy??? just because its german or because it has less agressive lines???
Yes, it is because of the crisp lines of the C43, M3 and S4 that they have class, they are elegant because they are understated.

While the 300ZX and 3000GT look alright, they also look like they are trying to hard, they come from an era where the Japanese specialised in tracing paper and hence the bodies are basically clones of European supercars. They go fast, but they are NOT classy, they completely lack any form of dignity, they're much like a naked woman, nice no doubt, but doesn't leave a lot to the imagination. The Germans are that same girl, but in expensive (and of course, classy) lingerie.

For class I like to use the Top Gear "cool-wall" analogy, that being: "If you are on your way to pick up [Insert dream girl here], what would you pick her up in" If you turned up in an S4, M3 or C43, she'd respect you, because she'd have a hard time telling whether it was that or a 318iS, or a C220 or an A4 1.8 SE, cars that everybody drives, basically. If you turned up in a 3000GT or 300ZX, you'd look like you were overcompensating, you'd look like you had a massive ego to satisfy in your flashy looking supercar.

Class goes well beyond how much stuff they stuffed into the car, believe me, if that was the case, then a Hyundai Sonata would be one hell of a classy car, it's actually one of the non-classy cars there is.

For class I like to use the Top Gear "cool-wall" analogy, that being: "If you are on your way to pick up [Insert dream girl here], what would you pick her up in" If you turned up in an S4, M3 or C43, she'd respect you, because she'd have a hard time telling whether it was that or a 318iS, or a C220 or an A4 1.8 SE, cars that everybody drives, basically. If you turned up in a 3000GT or 300ZX, you'd look like you were overcompensating, you'd look like you had a massive ego to satisfy in your flashy looking supercar.

The problem is that you are assuming that most girls would be more impressed with an S4 or M3 than a 300ZX or 3000GT, that's not necessarily true. Like I said in my last post, many European car owners or enthusiasts just assume that their car is the classiest or most respected car on the road, because it's European, and that everyone else will think the same thing. That's a pretty stupid thing to assume, and that kind of holier-than-thou attitude from companies such as Mercedes-Benz and BMW really just makes me more likely to buy a Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura.

On a more personal note, any girl that would have more respect for me because of what kind of car I drive is not the kind of girl I want to be dating anyways, and I don't give a damn how hot she is.

Yes, it is because of the crisp lines of the C43, M3 and S4 that they have class, they are elegant because they are understated.

While the 300ZX and 3000GT look alright, they also look like they are trying to hard, they come from an era where the Japanese specialised in tracing paper and hence the bodies are basically clones of European supercars. They go fast, but they are NOT classy, they completely lack any form of dignity, they're much like a naked woman, nice no doubt, but doesn't leave a lot to the imagination. The Germans are that same girl, but in expensive (and of course, classy) lingerie.

For class I like to use the Top Gear "cool-wall" analogy, that being: "If you are on your way to pick up [Insert dream girl here], what would you pick her up in" If you turned up in an S4, M3 or C43, she'd respect you, because she'd have a hard time telling whether it was that or a 318iS, or a C220 or an A4 1.8 SE, cars that everybody drives, basically. If you turned up in a 3000GT or 300ZX, you'd look like you were overcompensating, you'd look like you had a massive ego to satisfy in your flashy looking supercar.

Class goes well beyond how much stuff they stuffed into the car, believe me, if that was the case, then a Hyundai Sonata would be one hell of a classy car, it's actually one of the non-classy cars there is.

im sorry, the only way i can figure that the German engineered cars are more classy is because they have more subtle lines. and i dont think that that Top Gear analogy is completely accurate. if you think alittle deeper, probably 90%+ of women feel that there are no other cars in the world worth driving in besides a mercedes or BMW...not because of the styling or engineering or performance but more or less the name. just because something is badged mercedes doesnt mean it is any better than something badged honda. your average woman doesnt see past this, not because the honda is less classier but that the mercedes is SUPPOSED to be more classier.

and if you do a search one of the ferrari's took the same headlights from the Z32 and put them in their car. so who is really take styling cues from who...

i dont find german cars more or less classier than a good Japanese car, just a different kind of styling.

almost all the Japanese high end brands (Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura) will beat out the price equivalent German car in all aspects and especially class. i would much rather be seen in a G35 Coupe than a BMW 3 series and i think a woman would say the same thing after driving/riding in both.

The styling, the feature content, the country of origin, the badge on the hood, none of that has anything to do with it. A car is "classy" because higher-class people prefer that car. The reason everyone assumes that German cars are "classy" is because for a long time, they were making the best luxury cars. If you were rich and you wanted a really nice car, you went down to your local Mercedes-Benz or BMW dealer. Nowadays, though, the Japanese luxury brands are making cars that are every bit as good as the BMWs and the Benzes. They offer similar levels of performance, comfort, and distinction. Times have changed, and the higher-class are buying just as many Japanese cars as they are German cars. So, the notion that German cars are "classier" than Japanese cars, is merely an anachronism. It no longer applies in this day and age. Anyone who says that it does is either too stubborn to accept the change, or is just ignorant to the advances in technology made by the Japanese luxury brands.

Unfortunately, many (not all) European car buyers like to think that they are "above" everyone else, that their product is superior just because it's European.

Think? ha, I know



jk. I respect cars like the mk. IV Supra and the RX-7 as sports cars, but Japan has never made a car like the S4 or M3 that has that 50/50 combination of luxury and sport. They just don't have anything like it. There is no comparison in the class of an M3 or S4 against the true Japanese sports cars (3000gt, RX7, etc). I don't really like the top-gear analogy, I'll put it like this... What are you more likely to see at a Country Club or Hollywood premier or something like that. I can honestly say that if you drove up to one of those in a 300zx, you would look pretty out of place, where as an M3 would feel right at home with the S-Classes and 7-Series.

I respect cars like the mk. IV Supra and the RX-7 as sports cars, but Japan has never made a car like the S4 or M3 that has that 50/50 combination of luxury and sport. They just don't have anything like it. There is no comparison in the class of an M3 or S4 against the true Japanese sports cars (3000gt, RX7, etc).

Throughout the 90's, Japan was too busy establishing itself as a legitimate luxury car maker to worry about blending luxury and performance. They're done with that now, however, and they can start injecting some performance into their luxury line-ups. They've taken the first steps with cars like the Acura TSX, Infiniti G35, and Lexus IS 300. The Infiniti GT-R is on its way in 2007 to do battle with the new M3 and S4. I hear that Lexus is making a hybrid supercar sometime soon as well. Acura's already got the NSX, and their lower-end cars are plenty sporty and fun to drive. I think that if they put the SH-AWD from the RL on the TL, it'd be a great sports sedan. 270 horsepower and a sweet six-speed-manual transmission is great, but the FWD kinda ruins the fun in its current form. Anyways, you are absolutely right that the Germans have a solid performance edge in the luxury-sport category, but that won't last long, I can guarantee you. Japan finally has the reputation, the technology, and the funds to create some truly great luxury-sport cars, and I have no doubt that they will.

I can honestly say that if you drove up to one of those in a 300zx, you would look pretty out of place, where as an M3 would feel right at home with the S-Classes and 7-Series.

i wouldnt say that a car is defined as classy because rich people are classier than poor which means the cars they drive are classier. that is a very ignorant statement...in my eyes.

a cars class is not decided upon who drives but what the car is inside...i find the Japanese sports cars of the 90s very classy. your saying that if a rich person drives a Z06 vette into a country club, he is not as classy as the person next time him drivin an entry level $35k benz, because its not german. that is stupid...

BTW: last time i checked the 300zx in its time wasnt exactly for the average person at a cost of over $40-$45k in 1990. so yes, in 1990 i could see a person driving into a country club in a 45k-50k Nissan 300zx TT sports coupe. talk about classy, ehh... :nono:

so what is your argument now?? eventhough the 90 Jap supercars were mroe powerful, better performers, more comfort features, and a higher price (there goes your rich people own it, so its classy logic) that it is still less classy than a German car.... i think the only argument you have left is how it looks. all your other arguments were pretty much shot down... :screwy:

if you have opinionized thoughts thats one thing, but trying to make an argument out of complete opinions is pretty bold...

im sorry, the only way i can figure that the German engineered cars are more classy is because they have more subtle lines. and i dont think that that Top Gear analogy is completely accurate. if you think alittle deeper, probably 90%+ of women feel that there are no other cars in the world worth driving in besides a mercedes or BMW...not because of the styling or engineering or performance but more or less the name. just because something is badged mercedes doesnt mean it is any better than something badged honda. your average woman doesnt see past this, not because the honda is less classier but that the mercedes is SUPPOSED to be more classier.

and if you do a search one of the ferrari's took the same headlights from the Z32 and put them in their car. so who is really take styling cues from who...

i dont find german cars more or less classier than a good Japanese car, just a different kind of styling.

almost all the Japanese high end brands (Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura) will beat out the price equivalent German car in all aspects and especially class. i would much rather be seen in a G35 Coupe than a BMW 3 series and i think a woman would say the same thing after driving/riding in both.
Why are you even using the words engineering and class in the same sentences? The two are mutually exclusive A 1970's Jaguar XJ6, an Alfa Romeo Junior Z or Ferrari 250 California are the classiest cars ever made, but the engineering is shonky to say the least.

The cars country or even continent of origin has nothing to do with class either, Japan can and have made a few cars with true class, the very latest Honda Accord, Mazda6, Lexus GS430 and Subaru Legacy are all fantastic examples of this, but I have to admit they did get there by mimicing the latest Euro-styling (This is understandable as they were desiged with the intent of capturing more European sales). BUT an AMG, ///M or S car are classy simply because, while they do have a nice badge, they look like any car out there, yet stand out enough to turn ahead and don't need to impress anyone. The Japs have caught onto this as well (Legacy GT and Mazda6 MPS anyone?).

kman, styling makes up about 75% of "class" I mean, would you call a WRX STi classy? You'd have to be nuts to do so, would I deem the Legacy GT classy? Yes absolutely I would, same badge, same engines, however the Legacys subtleness, quality of materials and beautifully styled interiors give it the air of class that the STi lacks.

Japanese sports cars probably have a different image in the states, but where I was from (New Zealand), they basically told people that you couldn't think for yourself, because they were all over the place, as cheap-assed second hand imports from Japan and driven by the NZ equivalent to the types in the US who drive Civics with fart cans and GT wings. Over where I live now (Italy), they are the domain of Japanese car enthusiasts , which I reckon is cool and at least it protects the image of the cars and will make them collectible, I suppose, but I can't shake the image that they had in New Zealand.

kman, styling makes up about 75% of "class" I mean, would you call a WRX STi classy? You'd have to be nuts to do so, would I deem the Legacy GT classy? Yes absolutely I would, same badge, same engines, however the Legacys subtleness, quality of materials and beautifully styled interiors give it the air of class that the STi lacks.

I wouldn't say 75%, but it's certainly a factor. I can't comment much on this, because I don't have a very acute sense of style when it comes to cars; I just look at each one and decide whether I like it not. The majority of Japanese cars look very good to me, espeically the Lexus IS 300, Lexus GS 430, and Infiniti G35.

Japanese sports cars probably have a different image in the states, but where I was from (New Zealand), they basically told people that you couldn't think for yourself, because they were all over the place, as cheap-assed second hand imports from Japan and driven by the NZ equivalent to the types in the US who drive Civics with fart cans and GT wings. Over where I live now (Italy), they are the domain of Japanese car enthusiasts , which I reckon is cool and at least it protects the image of the cars and will make them collectible, I suppose, but I can't shake the image that they had in New Zealand.

There is definitely a lot of ricer hate over here as well, and when people see riced out Civics and whatnot, they usually think of it as very unoriginal as well. However, you don't see many 300ZXs, Supras, and RX-7s being riced out, because ricers usually can't afford them. As k3 said, those were forty to fifty thousand dollar cars when they were new, and they still command a premium price on the used market. Therefore, those higher-end Japanese sports cars command just as much respect as, say, an M3 or an S4 would, at least with car enthusiasts. There are always gonna be people who hate a car because of where it's from, no matter what, but those people can rot in hell anyways.

The cars country or even continent of origin has nothing to do with class either, Japan can and have made a few cars with true class, the very latest Honda Accord, Mazda6, Lexus GS430 and Subaru Legacy are all fantastic examples of this, but I have to admit they did get there by mimicing the latest Euro-styling (This is understandable as they were desiged with the intent of capturing more European sales). BUT an AMG, ///M or S car are classy simply because, while they do have a nice badge, they look like any car out there, yet stand out enough to turn ahead and don't need to impress anyone. The Japs have caught onto this as well (Legacy GT and Mazda6 MPS anyone?).

kman, styling makes up about 75% of "class" I mean, would you call a WRX STi classy? You'd have to be nuts to do so, would I deem the Legacy GT classy? Yes absolutely I would, same badge, same engines, however the Legacys subtleness, quality of materials and beautifully styled interiors give it the air of class that the STi lacks.


A honda accord and Mazda 6 are classy cars??? things must be way different in the states than over there...those are hardly luxury, sporty, or anything. they fall in about the entry level of all categories, and classy??? what makes a honda accord so classy...over here i think most people would agree that the class has been stepped up from previous models but still not quite a classy car. i find the 99-?? more classy than the new ones. whatever...things over here must be alot different than over there.

when i think classy...i do think of german made cars but not ONLY german cars. i think of 5 series + BMWs, whatever higher end Mercedes numbers are, the new A4 and above audis (but not the old A4's), G35, almost all the new acuras, Lexus, Saab, some Volvos...but to me the $35-40k Japanese Cars offer the same amount of class as the $50k+ german cars. the entry level german cars are becoming very common and very cheaply in my opinion, except for maybe Audi's. when i see a 3 series BMW, it doesnt even aquire a look from me. same with entry level mercedes. its getting ludicrous that these cars still receive so much praise when they are lacking the quality and superiorness that they are supposed to have, beings they are such "classy German" cars. :lol:

Just to counter the confusion a bit........... Our Honda Accord = you Acura TSX ;)

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=180469919&dealer_id=56141534&car_year=1991&make=POR&distance=0&lang=en&max_price=23000&model=911TURBO&end_year=2006&min_price=1&certified=&address=44645&search_type=both&advanced=&start_year=1981&isp=y&cardist=1234


simple nuf... right there

and still have 4 grand to play with!!!!!

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=181057101&dealer_id=56193788&car_year=2001&search_type=both&make=POR&distance=0&model=911TURBO&address=44645&certified=&advanced=&max_price=23000&min_price=1&end_year=2006&start_year=1981&isp=y&lang=en&cardist=1008


hell this one's even better

Just to counter the confusion a bit........... Our Honda Accord = you Acura TSX ;)

ahhh...sorry about that. i didnt know they still messed with cars names and badges like that over there. i was wondering how we got the honda accord in there...but even so. what about the mazda 6??? over here, its an entry level sedan just like the accord except i think the accord even offers more power. i dont think we have that MPS you were speaking of. and i feel that all the subarus have that, fresh out of college look to them. the hood scoop, the stock/aftermarket body "kit", they just look like a "rice me up" kinda cars. but yeah whatever...

Even the TSX isn't all that prestigious over here. Yeah, it's got the Acura name, but it's still got front-wheel-drive and only four cylinders, hardly the makings of a high-class car. It's still an excellent entry-level sports sedan though, and so is the Mazda 6.

it's not about the badge or the country of origin.
class is something like cool; it means something else to someone else.

even cars from the same badge can be classy/unclassy.
an A-class will never be classy/cool.
the McLaren SLR will never be classy/cool (unless you're 14 and only know about numbers).
then again, there's the 50 year old car that goes by it's nickname: gullwing.
how about the SL55 AMG?
classy: yes
cool: err.... no.....

i'd say that bmw, whilst being a prestigious car, doesn't have the same air of class about them as some of the equivilent MBs. this might be because of the yob image than BMW owners seem to have.
i mean, if you really did turn up at a film premiere in a bmw, it would definitely be at the bottom of the group.....

like it or not, the majority of japanese cars do not have 'class' about them. the ones you mention, mainly american market, if they were here in the uk, would be branded as too american and hence overdone and defintely not classy.

you can say taht this is all superficial and shallow and whatever but that's the way it is. it is all about stereotypes and cliches.

ferrari=small penis.
lamborghini=small penis AND up his own arse
american (i.e viper)=small penis and poor
porsche=smug git
bmw=yob who went to private school and works in the city (unless you're in the u.s where bmw=bought by your parents)
mb=old man's car but an old man with taste and money (or if you're in the u.s MB=doctor/surgeon/dentist)
japanese=cheap.
ford=cheap

notice how these things have nothing to do quality, performance, technology or build.

this is kinda why i'm drawn to the older classic cars because they are harder to put into one of those stereotype groups.
lotus europa.
it's cheap, built out of mecano, not very fast, a pain to look after properly, slightly out of proportion.

Interesting thoughts...one thing about you drunken monkey, you always make me think

I agree with alot of the stereotypes, but I sorta like to take a more positive look on the driver...UNLESS their cars an automatic, then I have a diminished respect for them

But I dont like the fact that coming from a lower middle class family, if I work really hard and do well enough to buy a nice 330ci you would see me and say im just some snob with daddys money, I dont think you can judge like that about every car...

if i offended then i apologise because that was not my intention.
in fact, it was meant to have a slightly sardonic tone (blame the inadequacies of text only communication).
hoprefully you understood my intentions.

there's also the point that your opinion of what a 'classy' car depends on you and your surroundings/circumstances/education etc etc.

the guy who has only ever sat in a ford focus is going to look up to the MBs and BMWs (don't lie...).
the rich guy who has spent his whole life around MBs and BMWs is going to look up the bentleys and astons.
as for the ferrraris and lamborghinis and whateveriniondas; that all depends on where you live.
i mean, if you are a resident in monaco, the ferrari 360 that would get stares in any other part of the world would be ignored.
context people.... context....
the number one thing we learn about in design school: context.

another thing,
lets be honest here, when most people talk about what car is good/bad/cool/classy probably won't buy the car they are arguing for.
(i love the EB110 but if i had the money i would still buy an old backbone chassis lotus over almost any new car)

take the question posed here; 300zx vs M3 in terms of classiness.
would you really take the 300zx over the M3?
300zx over an S4?
300zx over a lotus elan sprint?
300zx over a 240z?

the 300zx might be a better car in some respects but it is far from being classier (or in the last example, cooler) than any of them.

take the question posed here; 300zx vs M3 in terms of classiness.
would you really take the 300zx over the M3?
300zx over an S4?
300zx over a lotus elan sprint?
300zx over a 240z?

the 300zx might be a better car in some respects but it is far from being classier (or in the last example, cooler) than any of them.

:lol: i would take a 300zxTT over a E36 M3 anyday of the week. as for classiness, depends on your opinion...

im comparing cars of the same year...was the S4 even made for the US in 90-96???

sorry, i havent seen many lotuses in my life...i live in america. they arent a car that people talk about much, atleast in my area. and i dont really feel like looking up pictures and statistics on it. but i dont think lotuses were ever known for being classy, just true sports cars.

300zx over 240Z, as for classiness yes...the 240Z has no luxury what-so-ever. the only thing way i would take the 240Z over the Z32 is if i wanted a collector's car as of now. wait 20 more years, im sure the Z32 will be a collectors car just like the 240Z, except with alot of luxury to go along with the excellent performance.

you guys all ahve much different views upon cars than i do. what is so special about the E36 M3??? just because its a BMW...i dont think so. i think your trying to compare the E46 M3 and a 1990 300zx, this isnt very fair, now is it.

and again you have implied that the richer the person who buys the car the classier the car. well, the Z32TT cost as much as a brand new BMW M3 of today so there is no way in hell the E36 M3 cost as much or more than a Z32TT, when it was brand new.

i find the early Japanese Supercars just as "classy" as the same year German cars. and i think they look a hell of alot better too except for maybe the supra, the supra has that "factory rice" look but ocne you hop inside it is a very classy GT car.

this is all opinionated but i am trying to be open minded...i am just trying to make a point that some Japanese/American cars are just as classy as German cars and your making comments like this, "japanese=cheap./ford=cheap"...last time i checked the Ford GT is not a cheap car and Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura are also not defined as cheap cars. maybe, sentra, civic, and corolla...but European's have their fair share of "cheap" cars.

if one of you would just explain your reasons i may be able to understand your side but all of you just keep saying...German cars are more Classy than Japanese cars because...they are more expensive, they just are, and they came from Germany under a certain name. but the truth is they arent more expensive in all cases, and the other 2 just arent good arguments.

and there's a post from someone who did not understand a thing i said.

You're essentially saying that MBs are more classy because they garner more respect where you live. Okay, but that's not necessarily true in all parts of the world. Besides, like you said yourself, it's shallow and superficial thinking, and the whole reason that it exists is no longer valid anymore, now that the Japanese can match the Germans in the luxury department. So I, for one, am not going to go by it.

You're essentially saying that MBs are more classy because they garner more respect where you live. Okay, but that's not necessarily true in all parts of the world. Besides, like you said yourself, it's shallow and superficial thinking, and the whole reason that it exists is no longer valid anymore, now that the Japanese can match the Germans in the luxury department. So I, for one, am not going to go by it.
You're right, the Japanese have matched the Germans and joined them in the catagorey "soul-less luxury cars devoid of any character." While I respect Japanese luxury cars are no longer bland (Except the ES300, LS430 and Q45), they've basically become German cars designed and built in Japan. They still, at least in my opinion lack the Aura of a Silver C43 or E36 M3, though, though they at least have elegance on thier side this time, unlike the 300ZX or 3000GT.



Now, if you wanted a luxury car with class, character, soul and sophistication at a reasonable price you only have two options:

1. Alfa Romeo 166 3.2 V6 Ti (6 speed manual only)
http://www.alfaromeo.co.nz/showroom/cars/166/gallery2.jpg

2. Jaguar XJ6 SE
http://www.jaguarusa.com/us/en/vehicles/xj/gallery/photos_D38696BE-D412-4B6D-8CE1-EA2A5958B3D4_214x452.jpg

actually, the MBs don't get more respect.
if anything, i would say that MBs get very little respect here......
like i said, its nothing to do with brand or country of origin or anything that is quantifiable, let alone something as trivial as cost.
re: the mercedes list in my previous post.

whether or not a car is classy is dependent on it by itself.
it has little to do with history, cost, speed, or anything else.
as someone else said, a lot of it is to do with the style.
pre-war cars are always going to be classy because they are so different to the generic modern car.
hmm.... i think this is it....
modern cars have become generic.
they lack the flair and passion that the older cars have, which is why the 'classy' thing seems to be dependent on badge.
lots of cars have been mentioned here but i don't think any of them are classy cars; none of them shout out as being special to look at (which is what 'classy' is mostly about).
in fact, i can't think off the top of my head any modern car that i would say is 'classy', at least not in the way i would call an XK120 classy.
(thinking about it.... i might call a new A8 classy or perhaps a bently continental gt.... or a 406 coupe.. or perhaps a maserati quattroporte)

the reason why the 80s/90s japanese cars aren't really going to be classy is because they are genericly designed cars; they lack something that makes them special.
again, this has nothing to do with their actual attributes but sometimes, the classy cars have attributes to match their aura.

and let's not forget, that while the japanese cars are beginning to match their german counterparts, you're still not going to find the same kind of build/trim quality as you would find in an Audi, BMW or the newer MBs.

You're right, the Japanese have matched the Germans and joined them in the catagorey "soul-less luxury cars devoid of any character." While I respect Japanese luxury cars are no longer bland (Except the ES300, LS430 and Q45), they've basically become German cars designed and built in Japan. They still, at least in my opinion lack the Aura of a Silver C43 or E36 M3, though, though they at least have elegance on thier side this time, unlike the 300ZX or 3000GT.



Now, if you wanted a luxury car with class, character, soul and sophistication at a reasonable price you only have two options:

1. Alfa Romeo 166 3.2 V6 Ti (6 speed manual only)

2. Jaguar XJ6 SE

im sorry, now the subject gets changed to luxury cars. before you guys were talking about classy now all the sudden its luxury. classy and luxury are not entirely the same. i car can be qutie luxurious but still sporty and still be classy. Grand Touring Cars are built for high speed "Touring" in LUXURY. thus we have the 3000GT, Supra, 300zx, and RX7...are coming with all the luxury options you can imagine, missing a back seat but still luxurious for the 2 passengers seats and not much better built cars for doing high speed highway cruising. we are talkign speeds an excess of 130mph in most cases. these cars are classy...no they were not built in germany and no they do not look like an enlarged sports coupe. they have very smooth aggressive lines and were built in Japan. still classy just not the "German" way...whatever that is.

and there's a post from someone who did not understand a thing i said.

im sorry i only can understand what you wrote not what you meant...and what you wrote was obviously understood by more than one person different than what you meant. :screwy:

Monkey, is this a cool car? Classy?

http://www.tuningpt.com/galeria/lancia/integrale/delta1.jpg

it's cool.... but not classy.
i woudn't call any modern rally type car 'classy'.

the reason why the 80s/90s japanese cars aren't really going to be classy is because they are genericly designed cars; they lack something that makes them special.

this doesnt even deserve to be responded too but i have to...generic??? special??? maybe we didnt get the same early 90's Japanese Cars that you got. this was when cars were at their best, due to the Japanese companies trying to design the best car they can make...no matter the cost.

the 300zx started out as a mid-4 in the mid 1980's...that means it was being engineered for over 5 years with many engineering modifications...
american companies are just now catching onto All-Wheel Steering...nissan had this put into production in 1989. mitsubishi came out with electronically controlled active aero in 91...or how about all of these cars offering 300hp+ Twin Turbo small displacement motors??? if all of these cars are generically engineered and lack something special, i dont think they have made a car yet or ever will make a car that does...

going way back to one of my earlier posts.
'class' has nothing to do with cost, engineerig, technology or anthing else that is quantifiable.

also, i said generically designed, not engineered.
very different things.

it's cool.... but not classy.
i woudn't call any modern rally type car 'classy'.
Fair enough. Forgive me because i haven't read the whole thread, so i don't know if you said that 'cool' is not about country of origin, history, or if you were just referring to class. Because i think some of the main factors that set the integrale apart from scooby's and lancers are the badge, country of origin, impeccable heritage, etc... Cool does mean different things to different people but some stereotypes are just too embedded in our minds: an Italian coupe will 99% of the time be cooler than a Japanese coupe. Maybe it's a cultural thing, and we Europeans are far too snobbish...


Btw, i went to private school, work in the city and came this close to buying a Beemer :lol2:

going way back to one of my earlier posts.
'class' has nothing to do with cost, engineerig, technology or anthing else that is quantifiable.

also, i said generically designed, not engineered.
very different things.

actually it takes alot of engineering to design a car...thats why companies usually hire engineers to design their cars. :eek7:

and i was only referring to your comment about the generic engineering and lacking something special in the last part of that post...nothing to do with the class conversation.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, and we Europeans are far too snobbish...


and i think that is one of the truest statments i have read...:)

i think that's just it.
those stereotypes and cliches and shallow lines of thought are despite what some people might say, are true and that is what cuts people so much.

i think it's not european thing... it might be a british thing.
or maybe it's the fact that we don't have car market like they do in the states.

but like i keep saying, badge and country don't really come into it.
a rx-7 is always going to be a cool car (not really classy as that's not it's bag) until you park it next to say, a tuscan in which case it becomes slightly ordinary.
cool is a totally different kettle of fish.

heck, you're a brit, you know what i mean by 'classy'.

design and engineering are not mutually exclusive terms.in the design world, those two terms have very specific meanings

design is about how car looks.
sometimes engineers have say but in most cases, they do not.
going back to the nissan 350z.
the guy who designed it is not an engineer.

engineering is a what goes under the car and how it is put together.

design and engineering are not mutually exclusive terms.in the design world, those two terms have very specific meanings

design is about how car looks.
sometimes engineers have say but in most cases, they do not.
going back to the nissan 350z.
the guy who designed it is not an engineer.

engineering is a what goes under the car and how it is put together.

actually engineers usually do design the car. because of the aerodynamics and certain features that the body has to conform to fit the actual car, engineers usually design every aspect of the car, just different kinds of engineers. and designing a car is more than how it ooks, you have to design the the frame, engine, all that is designed...this is why we have inline engines, V engines, wankels, etc.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, and we Europeans are far too snobbish...

I couldn't agree more. I rant about it all the time whenever German automakers' customer service comes under discussion. Now, as anyone who is a student of Japanese culture can tell you, the Japanese are also very arrogant. They have a great sense of superiority, and look upon other cultures, particularly Western cultures, as barbaric. However, they do have two things that almost no other culture in the world can match: honor and discipline. Their honor demands that in return for buying their product, they treat you with the utmost courtesy and respect. Their disclipine demands that they do everything that they can to create the best product possible. Lexus' motto, "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection", sums it up pretty nicely. It is because of these two characteristics that I believe that Japanese cars are the best built and most reliable cars on the road, and why I seem to always have a much better experience when I shop at Japanese automakers' dealerships.

it's cool.... but not classy.
i woudn't call any modern rally type car 'classy'.


:eek7::lol: Congratulations you just contradicted yourself, once more. You do not call this Italian designed rally ca ther Lancia Delta Integrale that won 4 years in a row, attracted a cult following throughout Europe (especially in Germany), made by a company (and I do not care if you say it is just a subdivision of Fiat because at one point it was not, and as well that would mean Audi is just a subdivision of Volkswagen.), which also has made other rally cars such as the S4, S4 Abarth, Stratos amongst other group A and N rally cars. So what if the dash might look Fiatish and the interior might not be as good as the BMW and MBs of the mid-90s but considering the 1980s and early 90s BMW's boxy performance coupes and sedans (which does not take away anything from the fact that it is a great performing car) was and still is considered classy. So if you are calling the Integrale "modern type rally car" then that means the M3 must not have that much of a history either. And don't let me go into your thoughts of rallying. So you figure that just because these cars go through dirt, sand, mud and/or snow at times makes them less classy vehicles compared to the BMW, MB and touring Bentleys which are bulky compared to the sleak F1s, don't get me even started with Audi. And if a manufacturer's class is determined by what "level" of motorsport they are in making F1 the highest, then Toyota and Ford must be world class.

However, Lancia never really had the chance to totally reap the benefits from their WRC wins and colt status to raise the classiness of their production line like BMW, MB and Bentley have since Fiat decided to pull out of the WRC and cut their funds in favor of Alfa Romeo. Whether this is a good thing or not is totally up to you but regardless, today's Lancia might have plenty of luxury and class wrapped in a sport package, they totally lost almost all cues of their heritage plus without any clear cut performance not to mention any cues of what they use to be so most people might look at them as lacking true class to compete against BMW, MB, Jaguar, Volvo or Saab. Even though today's Lancia is still the technological powerhouse for Fiat. However even though Alfa Romeo might not be as classy as say BMW, MB, Volvo or Jaguar, like Saab they intend to nip at the heals of the competition which seems to be quite affective since now BMW is making the RWD hothatch the 1 Series and Mercedes is upping the A Class.

You also have to come to consideration that makes can actually fall in class. This has happened to makes such as Cadillac, Jaguar and Volvo to a certain extent, however they have made strides to regain it. Also, if companies can gain class through motorsports records such as BWM, MB and Bentley if they make their motorsports influence cross all of their automotive platforms in which might be smaller compared to other makes don't be surprised if you see Subaru make its way up the automotive latter of class, since they now have an identity in rally racing. Now we just have to see if they take small successful steps into other frontiers. This whole class through outstanding identity is what is getting Jeeb, specifically their Grand Cherokee places. I even saw a Top Gear video where they said is wasn't that bad and actually pretty good for an SUV. A European ranking a SUV other than the Cayenne, and an American one at that better then horrible, now this is suprising.:lol:

Also don't call rally racing modern since it has been around for 40 something years now, with non-sponsored events going even farther back.


I know you mean well in defining class and you do have a more open mind on the subject than who think the rank of automotive classiness is like some Fraternity of Valhalla which perminently such its doors after Audi joined.

Sorry for what seems to be re-kindling the flame after all that has calmed down, since I did start out this reply quite rudely. It is just picking on a motorsport for being a bit dirty doesn't qualify as being too brutish, they are not Crash Durbis. Also, would that mean that the Pourche 959 and Cayenne less classy since they have roots in the Dakar rally, which is one of the premier motorsports of speed and endurance (more endurance) which is held quite highly.

Actually I read up more on Lancia and the main reason the make in the end did not sell so well is because in a true 80s sense (or what is defined by VH1) is that their success with the first Lancia Delta is what you can call a one hit wonder. And then they pretty much did what GM does, take a iconic name and place it on a totally different platform. I am not saying the Delta II is a bad car, it is actually a pretty good hothatch, but I guess to most it just didn't justify the absense of the first one. But this still doesn't take away from what I mentioned above of how rally spec cars can be just as classy, just look at what happened with the Audi Quattro. And before you go on about how they tend to have outragious hoodscoops, spoilers and other fender flares just take a look at the BMW M3 EVO and one MB car of the 80s which I forgot the model name was. Which brings me to another thing about how the cycle of certain automotive manufacturers tend to be, but that is for another post.

american companies are just now catching onto All-Wheel Steering...nissan had this put into production in 1989.

Actually, GM is Phasing out its 4 wheel steering in its vehicles. I guess it was a $5500 option on whatever vehicles they sold them on and nobody bought...now they are seeling it as a $2000 option which GM says is below cost...I think Chrysler/Dodge still have it tho...

I find "classy" to be a very subjective trait to a car, and so its very hard to categorize cars with world wide agreement...However, in my opinion, a classy car is one appropriate to a formal event. So if I was going to a special event I wouldnt take the Protege, I would take the Legacy...

how have i contradicted myself?
i don't think the integral is a classy car.
so what?
are you saying that it is (compared to let's say a james young rolls royce)?
(by the way posting lots of irrelevant information does not make you right or me wrong.... and er... cult following? so what? star trek has a cult following....)

yes the integral was a succesful rally car (by the way, i would call the advent of 4WD in rallying as being the modern age; hence 'modern' rally car) but that has nothing to do it being classy or not.

'class' is about image and like it or not, rally type cars do not have much of an image.
if anything, the average guy, to whom class is a simpler concept, the modern rally car (i.e evo, scooby, delta, quattro) just isn't a classy car; it's nothing special; just another hatch/salloon with some bits on it.
they don't know/care about how many rally wins it has under the helm of stig blomquist or timo makkinen or how it utterly destroyed the competion on it's first outing or whatever.

certain cars will always be deemed more classy because of its prestigue, whether or not it is true or not
re: my mercedes examples in a previous post
a-class
SL55 AMG
mclaren slr
"gullwing"
all are mercedes, only one has true class.

the reason i used this example is because it illustrates lots of points at once.
i) badge does not have anything to do with the modern perception of class.
i) the badge does not automatically make it a classy car - A-class
ii) cost does not automatically make it a classy car - mclaren slr
iii) performace does not make a classy car - slr and SL55 AMG