timing cover gasket questions
Winny_the_Pooh
01-01-2005, 11:00 AM
Folks,
One year post mortem after I replaced the lower intake gasket (and head gaskets as preventive maintenance), I am about to now undertake replacement of the timing cover gasket due to the following symptoms:
1) losing coolant slowly - have to top off every few months.
2) have coolant in oil albeit hard to discern
3) have pooling of coolant on lip of oil pan which is dripping down onto oil filter and then onto floor. Get a quarter sized spot over a day or few days.
4) no fault codes and engine runs fine.
It is interesting to note that I was forewarned by a poster named wrestler on the cartrackers.com forum that I would soon be crossing this bridge. Unfortunately, his very detailed instructions for undertaking this repair on that forum seem to be lost forever.
I have the following questions:
1) Ford shop manual says to remove oil pan. Can this be avoided?
2) I remember wrestler's warning of a certain hidden bolt to watch for. Is this the one behind the oil cooler/pump?
3) Ford shop manual recommends replacing the seal on the front cover. Is this typically done?
4) Should I go ahead and replace timing chain and sprockets while I am in there? How about water pump? I also remember wrestler recommending using only a new water pump, not rebuilt.
5) Is it recommended to use new bolts/studs, especially if the old ones were rusted?
6) I remember that wrestler loosened the motor mounts and jacked up the engine to get the water pump pulley to clear. Where is a good point to place the jack, especially if oil pan is off? Or, should this step be performed with oil pan on first? Do I have too watch out to not crush/dent oil pan?
7) Anything else I forgot?
Thanks in advance.
George (Winny_the(is)_Pooh)
One year post mortem after I replaced the lower intake gasket (and head gaskets as preventive maintenance), I am about to now undertake replacement of the timing cover gasket due to the following symptoms:
1) losing coolant slowly - have to top off every few months.
2) have coolant in oil albeit hard to discern
3) have pooling of coolant on lip of oil pan which is dripping down onto oil filter and then onto floor. Get a quarter sized spot over a day or few days.
4) no fault codes and engine runs fine.
It is interesting to note that I was forewarned by a poster named wrestler on the cartrackers.com forum that I would soon be crossing this bridge. Unfortunately, his very detailed instructions for undertaking this repair on that forum seem to be lost forever.
I have the following questions:
1) Ford shop manual says to remove oil pan. Can this be avoided?
2) I remember wrestler's warning of a certain hidden bolt to watch for. Is this the one behind the oil cooler/pump?
3) Ford shop manual recommends replacing the seal on the front cover. Is this typically done?
4) Should I go ahead and replace timing chain and sprockets while I am in there? How about water pump? I also remember wrestler recommending using only a new water pump, not rebuilt.
5) Is it recommended to use new bolts/studs, especially if the old ones were rusted?
6) I remember that wrestler loosened the motor mounts and jacked up the engine to get the water pump pulley to clear. Where is a good point to place the jack, especially if oil pan is off? Or, should this step be performed with oil pan on first? Do I have too watch out to not crush/dent oil pan?
7) Anything else I forgot?
Thanks in advance.
George (Winny_the(is)_Pooh)
Winny_the_Pooh
02-21-2005, 11:18 AM
The Felpro replacement timing cover gasket instructions say to apply "grease" to the gasket before installation. Wheel bearing grease? Chassis grease? Engine Oil? Assembly lube? Any opinions? What is the purpose of lubricating the gasket anyway?
This would seem to rule out also applying RTV to the gasket. I figured a little RTV may "beef up" the gasket in the critical areas (i.e. two coolant ports into block). Anybody ever augment this gasket with RTV?
My bolts/studs are a little rusted but came out fairly easily using Wrestler's double-nut method. Can I clean up and re-sue them? Or, should I buy new? If new, is this a dealer item only?
This would seem to rule out also applying RTV to the gasket. I figured a little RTV may "beef up" the gasket in the critical areas (i.e. two coolant ports into block). Anybody ever augment this gasket with RTV?
My bolts/studs are a little rusted but came out fairly easily using Wrestler's double-nut method. Can I clean up and re-sue them? Or, should I buy new? If new, is this a dealer item only?
12Ounce
02-21-2005, 12:48 PM
I miss the ole Wrestler. I sent an e-mail to Bob Talley ... no answer. Wonder where they ended up?
I like wheel bearing grease, or syn chassis grease, on gaskets for water pumps and the like. No leaks thus far. Never done a Winnie front cover... but would expect to use it there also. The grease would help the gasket and mating surfaces to "slide and fit" better. Always better, than sealants that cure/dry, for later disassembly if necessary.
I do believe the hidden cap bolt was under the oil pump.
If the studs clean up, they should be reusable. My local Ace Hardware carries studs in metric and English sizes. They are surely not "hi-strength" in this application.
Did you decide to use new chain and sprockets? I can't imagine it being necessary... though Wrestler changed his... but didn't he have 250 kmiles on his '96(?) ...and used non-syn oil? Maybe change the tensioner, if it shows a lot of wear. The shop manual doesn't speak to the wear possibilities on these components at all.
How is the space for removal? And what model are you working on?
I expect you will have to remove the cam position sensor synchronizer before the cover will budge... if your model's arranged similar to my '99.
I like wheel bearing grease, or syn chassis grease, on gaskets for water pumps and the like. No leaks thus far. Never done a Winnie front cover... but would expect to use it there also. The grease would help the gasket and mating surfaces to "slide and fit" better. Always better, than sealants that cure/dry, for later disassembly if necessary.
I do believe the hidden cap bolt was under the oil pump.
If the studs clean up, they should be reusable. My local Ace Hardware carries studs in metric and English sizes. They are surely not "hi-strength" in this application.
Did you decide to use new chain and sprockets? I can't imagine it being necessary... though Wrestler changed his... but didn't he have 250 kmiles on his '96(?) ...and used non-syn oil? Maybe change the tensioner, if it shows a lot of wear. The shop manual doesn't speak to the wear possibilities on these components at all.
How is the space for removal? And what model are you working on?
I expect you will have to remove the cam position sensor synchronizer before the cover will budge... if your model's arranged similar to my '99.
wiswind
02-21-2005, 05:06 PM
I seem to remember wrestler mentioning that he was replacing his '96 windstar. At 250K+ miles....I think he was due. I miss his posts also.
Winny_the_Pooh
02-22-2005, 09:46 PM
Doing this job, I certainly miss the very detailed info that Wrestler had provided on Cartrackers. He was especially adept at noting all of the real-world "gotcha's" that you don't find in the Haynes or Ford manuals. He responded to my e-mail over x-mas time and I told him of this group but he may no longer be interested in Winny's if he finally got rid of his.
BTW - My Winny is a '96 with the 3.8L and 80K miles. I did purchase and new timing chain and sprockets, mainly because I remember wrestler doing this also. Now that the cover's off, they originals don't look bad but I've already bought the replacements so I'll go ahead and change them.
Found the cap screw behind the oil pump after I took the pump off and removed all of the gunk covering it. My took very little torque to remove which may explain why there was so much oily gunk there in the first place. I would like to install oil pump ahead of time but I am concerned that there is no access to re-install cap screw with pump on cover. Certain bolts on the oil pump are difficult to access due to interference with the front motor mount bracket that also hold the A/C compressor.
Also got the CMP out but made sure to have #1 at TDC and noted position of vane on CMP. Had "accidently" removed it last year when working on the lower manifold but wrestler e-mailed me his powerpoint presentation on how to re-install and I got it back in succesfully. So, confident that I can do it again if something moves when I untorque the bolt holding the sprocket to the camshaft when doing the timing chain. For some reason that I never figured out, wrestler and I did differ on interpretations of where #1 cylinder was which is critical to CMP timing. I went with my interpretation and van ran great afterward.
Obviously, I did not pull the engine as the Ford and Haynes manuals dictate. As wrestler noted, you do have to unbolt the motor mounts from the sub-frame and jack up engine to get water pump pulley, and in my case, even the water pump to clear (due to a couple of stuck studs). Certain studs don't clear so they have to be pre-inserted into the cover holes as it is positioned. You can't position cover and then insert all of the studs/bolts. I plan to do a "dry" run beforehand to make sure I have a sound plan.
Once I got water pump off, I had more threads to work with and was able to lossen the remaining stuck studs with double nut method. One stud did require triple nut method though.
Sorry so verbose tonight.
BTW - My Winny is a '96 with the 3.8L and 80K miles. I did purchase and new timing chain and sprockets, mainly because I remember wrestler doing this also. Now that the cover's off, they originals don't look bad but I've already bought the replacements so I'll go ahead and change them.
Found the cap screw behind the oil pump after I took the pump off and removed all of the gunk covering it. My took very little torque to remove which may explain why there was so much oily gunk there in the first place. I would like to install oil pump ahead of time but I am concerned that there is no access to re-install cap screw with pump on cover. Certain bolts on the oil pump are difficult to access due to interference with the front motor mount bracket that also hold the A/C compressor.
Also got the CMP out but made sure to have #1 at TDC and noted position of vane on CMP. Had "accidently" removed it last year when working on the lower manifold but wrestler e-mailed me his powerpoint presentation on how to re-install and I got it back in succesfully. So, confident that I can do it again if something moves when I untorque the bolt holding the sprocket to the camshaft when doing the timing chain. For some reason that I never figured out, wrestler and I did differ on interpretations of where #1 cylinder was which is critical to CMP timing. I went with my interpretation and van ran great afterward.
Obviously, I did not pull the engine as the Ford and Haynes manuals dictate. As wrestler noted, you do have to unbolt the motor mounts from the sub-frame and jack up engine to get water pump pulley, and in my case, even the water pump to clear (due to a couple of stuck studs). Certain studs don't clear so they have to be pre-inserted into the cover holes as it is positioned. You can't position cover and then insert all of the studs/bolts. I plan to do a "dry" run beforehand to make sure I have a sound plan.
Once I got water pump off, I had more threads to work with and was able to lossen the remaining stuck studs with double nut method. One stud did require triple nut method though.
Sorry so verbose tonight.
12Ounce
02-24-2005, 02:20 PM
Thanks for the info. Yeah, I remember ole Wrestler's insistence that #1 and #4 pistons reached top-of-stroke at the same time.. he reasoned this because they are on the same "crank throw". Don't think so , but I'm not sure. I know they would reach TDC simultaneously (only) if the center of the crankshaft intersects the point of the "V" formed by the cylinder center lines. (Edit update: I posted this just to provoke some discourse. I have no idea how to make two separate pistons in a vee engine, linked to a common crank throw, share identical TDC's...and I've doodled many circles and "V's" trying to accomplish this.)
Yep, Wrestler's probably moved on to another 'hicle. Wish I could afford to. My Winnie is an alright ride for seven, but now I'd like AWD and a little more tow capacity.
Yep, Wrestler's probably moved on to another 'hicle. Wish I could afford to. My Winnie is an alright ride for seven, but now I'd like AWD and a little more tow capacity.
Winny_the_Pooh
03-02-2005, 09:28 PM
Another stupid question. The Haynes manual says to pack the gears inside the oil pump with petroleum jelly. Why? Would assembly lube work as well?
12Ounce
03-03-2005, 11:23 AM
I would say petroleum jelly would be hard to beat: won't drain out of the pump during assembly, will seal very effectively, and is so "light" and temperature sensitive that it will not plug any oil passages.
When assembling an engine, I always like to manually spin the engine (without plugs of course) to prime the pump and start the oiling process. On an overhead cam engine you can watch for oil to reach the cam. On the 'star, I don't know how you could easily detect oil-pickup.
When assembling an engine, I always like to manually spin the engine (without plugs of course) to prime the pump and start the oiling process. On an overhead cam engine you can watch for oil to reach the cam. On the 'star, I don't know how you could easily detect oil-pickup.
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