2ZZ-GE really that great?

The 2ZZ-GE is being hailed as Toyota's (and Yamaha's) masterpiece to rival the high spirited Honda engines. I say the hell to that.

Toyota has always excelled at turbocharged performance, and even without a turbo, they always made it easy enough for enthusiasts to tinker with aftermarket forced induction. Their new flimsy, light, yet quick approach leaves no room for the brute harshness of the average turbocharger, and pretty much simulates a Honda engine environment (lacking bottom-end strength, needing to reconfigure engine characteristics).

In factory form, the 2ZZ-GE or "Dizzy" produces a fair amount of power, but leaves little expansion capabilities. The head and valvetrain is already finely made (except for the rather high cam-shift point), and with a high 11.5:1 compression ratio no simple bolt-on turbocharger can safely be implemented without some internal alterations. Furthermore, word on the street has it that the ZZ engine's ECU is almost impossible to crack and properly map.

What to do? Even the famed Ultimate Celica uses simple, cost-efficient, but older technology with a beefed up 3S-GTE to find its half a grand of horsepower mark. The only thing I can think of for 7th generation Celica prospectives is to turn to the little brother GT model with its not-as-refined 1ZZ-FE or "Izzy" (who conjures up these nicknames I don't know). Let me back up for a second and rephrase that... The most cost-efficient method of making a ZZT231 go fast is by working with the 1ZZ motor. A few turbocharged examples are being churned up around the globe, in favor of its simplistic design for modification. It has lower compression pistons rated at 10.0:1 (albeit still a bit too high for really major boost).

http://www.toyota-stars.ch/images/Messen/MotorShowEssen2001/Silo/102-0222_IMG.jpg

http://www.toyota-stars.ch/images/Messen/MotorShowEssen2001/Silo/102-0225_IMG.jpg

Note: Intercooler-

http://www.toyota-stars.ch/images/Messen/MotorShowEssen2001/Silo/102-0223_IMG.jpg

Note: VVT-i (not VVTL-i) equals 1ZZ-FE-
http://www.toyota-stars.ch/images/Messen/MotorShowEssen2001/Silo/102-0224_IMG.jpg

Toyota Team Europe, known for revolutionizing Toyota in the European bred racing arenas (WRC, Le Mans, now F1) has done just that resulting in this Celica GT equivalent. From the looks of it, the powerplant has been left relatively alone aside from the compressor, and pumps about 200 hp.

There's also that "Red Dragon" Celica GT also with 1ZZ-turbo engine featured on the cover of Super Street, also built around the theme of stock internals. Unfortunately, I have neither photos of this vehicle, nor dyno specs on the final powerplant, but his creation seems to be a daily driver. That type of status for a turbo GT-S must be achieved with the usage of expensive internal upgrades, as was with the case with XS Engineering's blown 2ZZ-GE GT-S.

The 1ZZ-FE powered MR2 Spyders seem to be having a fun time with their simple bolt-on compressors as well...

Getting back to how I started off, I think Toyota has no business heading into natural aspiration Honda territory. They should have stayed on the forced-induction camp like the few remaining 'appropriate' Nissans (the S16 is set to have an all new high-strung n/a motor as well) but even they are going the econoroute (but not by choice, with the Renault deal).

I say again, where's the turbo?!

http://www.blitz-na.com/Image/supercharger.jpg
Supercharged 2ZZ-GE rated at 270HP (197Kw) at 7600rpm (at the flywheel), and 192ft/lbs (261Nm) of torque at 4800rpm. 6.4 psi (0.45kg/cm) of boost. Unveiled by Blitz Japan at the 2002 Toyko Auto salon in Janurary. Estimated price in the $4000-5000 US range.

Why isn't there any turbo kits available on the market for the 2ZZ-GE at the moment? Few reasons....

1. High stock compression ratio of 11.5:1 (as you have mentioned earlier)

2. Returnless fuel line

3. There is not much clearance for a new turbo and a tuned exhaust manifold to fit properly in the engine bay.

4. Costly to replace with strenghened internals like shot peened con-rods, low compression forged pistons etc. (As you mentioed before)

Furthermore, word on the street has it that the ZZ engine's ECU is almost impossible to crack and properly map.

I have a Apexi Power FC running my 2ZZ-GE engined Celica for almost a year now. Plug and play ECU which comes pre-uned for JDM Celica's. I had it dyno'd tuned when I got it, for Australian conditions and fuel requirements.

I agree with your point about best bang for your buck for turbo applicaion is indeed the GT model Celica with the 1ZZ-FE engine.

Nissan Japan is dumping its last prodution model run of S15 200SX's (SR20DET) onto Australia shores because of looming tighter emission standards in Japan. I hav'nt heard of any news on the S16 though.

As for future Toyota factory turbo'd engines, I say wait and see what they will put in replacment vehicle for the current Supra. The 2ZZ-GE is good, but it was never designed with forced indution in mind.

Jason

Wow, supercharger, eh? Now THAT seems to be a viable solution to the Celica's forced induction incapabilities. And from the looks of that photo, the blower is properly on the intake manifold side, where there is plenty of space for an add-on. Sounds tasty!

It looks like Japanese tuners are finally venturing into other territories (not that superchargers have never been touched, but this Blitz piece looks pretty well developed and deep). Can't wait to see this mechanism on our shores.

Sport compact car succesfully turboed the toyota matrix XRS. Adapted XS Enginnerings turbo celica GTS kit... Kept the stock compression and ran it on 91 octane.. Made 231 ponies at the wheels.. Everything worked and tested for 1000 miles with no complications.. Its possible.. Just takes dedicated tuners to get the job done right...

ZigRig : >)

I say give Toyota another chance with the VVi-L technology.
They are VERY new to it, lagging behind the other large japanese manufactors by about 5-6 years. (and 12 years to Honda) (longer if you count preproduction development)

But Toyota does have a reputation of building an OK engine design, and then following it up closely with an AWSOME engine design.

classic example- 2tge, an ok attempt for a first Twincam engine, but with only 8 valves they never made lots of hp. It was really just a production test bed. (for testing on the public, and to prove they could do it)
But it was followed by the mighty 4age, possibly one of the best engines ever made.

So if you think of the 2ZZ-GE as the 2tge, (and toyota testing on its customers again) then imagine how great its next incarnation could be, especialy if it follows in the foot steps of the 4age. (and those are some big shoes to fill).

As for going down the N/A route, well I don't think they really have much choice.
The days of big engines makeing dirty great amounts of hp are coming to an end. Effisancy and low emmisions are the new buzz words, and new laws are making them stick.
And it seems that the beat way to make an efficant, low emmisions engine that is still capable of making high spefic hp levels is with the use of variable valve timeing and lift, and most recently direct injection and 2 or more spark plugs. (all old technology, but with modern ECU's its being put to a better use).
Honda has a huge head start in this area, and the fact that ALL thier current production engines meet ULEV emissions standards years before they need to shows thier commitment.
But Toyota is a much larger company, with a massive R&D base, and access to literaly half the worlds automotive technology through GM.
So just like Honda built a Twin Cam engine first, and a Small Hatch back First, Toyota didnt take long to catch up, and ened up building a beter Twin cam, and the Worlds best Small Hatch.

So, where does this leave tuning the 2ZZ-GE.

Well IMO I dont think people should get to carried away trying, use it as a test bed instead to develop tuning parts that will work with the new technology. But dont get to carried away with expecting it to make exceptional amounts of hp, or to be easy and reliable to tune.
Instead wait for the next generation of engines to be released, and hope that they fill the boots left by the 4age. Then start tuning! (and swapping into the by then old model Celica!)

:cool:

Great point of perspective. Like the evil Siths, there are always two. A master and an apprentice.

albeit oldthis is an intertesting thread......i am actually resesrching this engine right now to see what cna be done with it, but to tell you the truth Toyota has TONS of N/A experience, they were the ones who pinoeered the great 4AGE motors, but actuality they always receieve "help" form Yamaha with their N/A's so they have to be good right? Also, Look at Formula racing, Toyota has their share in that as well right?

i thought Hass-Pro turbo and Monkey wrench motorsports has turbo kits for the 2ZZ. There is a bone stock 2ZZ motor turboed to 400hp, tell me that isn't impressive for a 1.8L

^ true but how long will that motor last? not long. i think the 2zz is a great little engine but when it comes down to it.

3sge>2zzge

2zzge> any toyota 4 cylindar

no head even comes close to rivaling the flow capabilities of the 2zz except teh fa 4age and the 20v 4age...yet those to are still leagues behidn the technology in the head of the 2zz.

way to bring this thread back from the dead, i see it was made in 2003, the reason why there were no succesfull 2zzgte's back then is beacuse it was a new, 3 year old engine. the 3s-gte has over 20 years of tinkering time in it

IMO were at the point where experimentation with the 2zz is at its finest, as of now theyre on there way to pulling out 600-700 hp out of them. and im betting they will be able to get more than that in a few years


again
2zzge> any other toyota 4 cyl

i thought Hass-Pro turbo and Monkey wrench motorsports has turbo kits for the 2ZZ. There is a bone stock 2ZZ motor turboed to 400hp, tell me that isn't impressive for a 1.8L
the thread was made way back before any of those kits were available. the gt-s which came out in 2000 turbo kits were not really ready for the market until just recently (very recently)

yea i didn't see the dates and kinda just followed it.

2zzge> any toyota 4 cylindar



again
2zzge> any other toyota 4 cyl


im not buying it.

im not buying it.
lol how are you not buying it?
its known, and obvious the 2zzge flows better than the 3sgte. right there it has a massive edge over it. then comes in the vvtl-i and the fact taht it is way lighter (meanning better weight distribution, less weight=better handeling) it can ultimatly revv aolt higher then the 3sgte. the bottem end, when built, can handle just as much as a 3sgte. its oil passageways, coolant system, head design, block design (aluminum and weight) and almost every single thing on it has more advanced/better technology than the 3sgte

the only thing a 3sgte has on a 2zzge is stock bottem end strength. and a turbo. built. the 2zzge and 3sgte are basically the same, except the 2zz has better cooling and oiling system. and a turbo can be added to a 2zzge.

ultimatly if i HAD to choose between a 7th gen gt-s and a swapped(were using swapped for sake) 5th/6th gen i would only choose the swapped 3sgte car simply becuase it takes money to make a 2zzge faster. a 3sgte can hit 300HP with only about a grand. if i had a shitload or unlimited amount of money or was buildling a race engine, i would use a 2zzge hands down. better technology

he's basically saying that out of all the 4 bangers the 2ZZ pretty much has the highest flowing head which is the bottom line limiting factor to how much power you can make and since the 2ZZ has only been out for so long there hasn't been suficient R&D to show it's full potential, but the progress so far in the 4 or 5 years it's been out is pretty fast. When the 3SGTE was out people would dog that motor saying it had no potential, it wasn't until so many years later did it catch on like fire.

but if you had a caldina 3SGTE it might be a different story =P

what are the comparitive flow rates of the 2zzge and 3sg(t)e. i dont see any 2zzs out there making 800+ hp. you say lack of development time, i say inferior engine design. haha that kinda rhymed.

i think it took longer for people to develop a 400hp 3SGTE though I think a year longer than it took for people to come up with a 400hp 2ZZGE. But if we were comparing the 2ZZ to the caldina motor, not sure if it has a better flow but GT300 drivers were using 3SGTE instead all up till the 2GR came out, then everyone switched over to the V6, I love that V6 =D

I say we look at this from an even point of view.

Stock vs Stock.

I give the 3sgte a much better rating. the 200hp(2nd gen)/255hp(3rd gen) beats the 2zz's 180. The 3sgte has roughly 200 ft-lbs torque(2nd gen) and closer to 225(3rd gen) as compared to the 2zz's wopping 140(135?). now, the 2zz rev's about a grand more, weighs less (numbers anyone?), and its VVTL-I allows for more aggression at higher RPMs.

Even with the higher revs and lighter engine, the 3sgte will overpower the 2zz.

Now, im not saying that in terms of technology, that the 2zz isnt superior, what im saying is that in terms of raw power and performance, i would dare say that the 3sgte wins. And the fact that companies use the 3sgte over other toyota engines in their cars says alot. There are even 7th gens that have had 3sgte's dropped in them.

the 3sge beams had like 205 and it was n/a as well. and more tq.

......... well if you really want to compare you should compare like black scorpion is comparing, I mean duh a turbo motor will have more power of a N/A motor, that's give, lol. But the beams N/A motor is 2.0L and the 2ZZ is 1.8L and they are making the same effeciency, but, and this is a big but, with the way the 2ZZ is running n/a to n/a the 2ZZ will come out on top once you start modding. And the same goes for if you built a 2ZZ turbo.

And the, this motor was used in this car talk is kinda not really there, because the Lotus runs the 2ZZGE, not the 3SGE and they are going to use the LNF motor which is GM's 2.0L turbo motor for the up and coming lotus. Why? Because they felt the 2ZZ or LNF motor is better? Well better in the sense that it's easier to pass emissions in california, but I could also argue it's because they felt they are better motors. Or that they use the 3SGTE in the GT300 cars because it was available and lots of R&D have gone through it already that switching to the 2ZZ would be pointless. They used the 3SGTE because it was the simple/Economical way, same reason why SuperGT teams (formerly known as JGTC) have dropped the 3SGTE motors and are using the 2GR motors, why? Because the 2GR comes with 300hp from the factory and GT300 cars are caped at 300hp, so the teams then can just tweak the motor for better response and reliability instead of having to spend lots more on building up the motor for more power. And that's one reason why in SuperGT you'll never see a 2ZZ because for toyota motors in the GT300 class everyone is going to use the 2GR, it's current and requires less tooling.

Right now, 3SGTE are way cheaper to make more power, that's the downfall of the 2ZZ right now, it's too expensive. But like the B series guys, they were completely against the K series for a long time, but now they've built some pretty mean turbo K24/K20 hybrids and honda racers usually run K24s.

also in the states we can't get a Beams motor for smog legal use, unless you live in states that don't require smog checks.

^exactly

untiull about a year or 2 aog poeple wouldnt even get away from there B seris to the K....now there catching on its an overall better engine. theres just not as much time developing parts/tuning it as the B series (3sgte)

if i had an unlimited amount of money and had to build a 2zz or 3sgte...the 2zz would come out with more power. hands down.

but its not mjust about making HP and TQ...its also the fact taht the 2zz is more then 100 pounds lighter than the 3sgtem witch makes fore an overall lighter/better handeling car.


BTW the st-215 caldina engine is just a st-205 3rd gen 3s-gte with a diffrent WIC and boost. everything else is the same. the head flows almost the same as a usdm 2nd gen.

the CFM numbers on the 2zz are WAYYYY higher than the 3sgte.

imagining a ported 2ZZ turbo still reving to 7K+ *drool*

imagining a ported 2ZZ turbo still reving to 7K+ *drool*
or imagine one revving to 9K w a gt35r :) oh wait ive seen one!!! lol

that just scares me.... 9Krpm and boost.... pics please?!!?!?!

I have a 2ZZ-GE and a 3S-GTE. The 2zz-ge will always be my favorite. If my GT-S wasn't my daily driver, I would have put the money into that car to build it up.. but it's my daily so I am putting my money into the All-Trac.

MWR was putting down 415whp with a STOCK ENGINE in their shop GT-S using their turbo kit (they were also revving the engine to 9,000 RPMS on those dyno runs).

http://monkeywrenchracing.com/images/Dyno/mwrcelica412whp.jpg


Most people in the 3S-GTE community recommend forged pistons/rods after 350+whp. There are very few people pushing 400+whp in their MR2's still using the stock bottom end. So I don't see why you are putting down the 2zz-ge when it has nearly the same power capabilities as the 3s-gte in stock form.

The 3S-GTE shortblock alone weighs more than a fully assembled 2ZZ-GE. It has a cast iron block, a larger head, heavier cams, and the transmission is also much heavier.

I've seen a couple comments about the cost of building up a 2zz-ge as compared to a 3s-gte build. I totally disagree. Rods and pistons cost the same for both. Fuel upgrades also have similar prices. You will also have to go with an EMS either way you go. So I don't see why you guys are complaining about the price.

hmm...anyhow I don't think 2zz-ge is better than the 2jz-gte on a legendary supra. To me i think 2jz-gte is one of the greatest engine that toyota ever made. Lots of hp can be achieved after modification up to 1000HP+.

I read an article about the 2zz-ge that it starts off slow while the 1zz-fe have better pick up and the power increases smoothly. Anyhow 2zz-ge have much more hp than the 1zz-fe. I didn't know that the 2zz-ge is hard to crack into. Only heard that is not easy to crack into the 2jz-gte engine in malaysia.

Maybe it is possible in other countries im not sure.

A 03 - 07 Corolla is best fit with 2zz-ge right? But after reading this forum i guess it needs lots of cash and modifcation to increase its hp and almost impossible to crack into.

Well if Lotus can use the same engine in the Exige S, with a supercharger to get 220-260 hp, it should be a decent motor.

wow talk about necro posters. Please don't compare a 2JZ to a 2ZZ, that's like comparing a horse to an elephant. The 2JZ is a 3.0L I-6 the 2ZZ is a 1.8L I-4. And I think the 2JZ probably weighs 200+lbs more. If this is purely for drag racing sure take the 2JZ otherwise it's a bad choice really. In the SuperGT they NEVER use a 2JZ it's just a horrible engine for it's weight distribution and power, they all use Bored out V8s in the GT500 class because it has better weight distribution and they can make 500hp N/A instead of turbo.

The and the 2ZZ being slow at the start compared to a 1ZZ is not that much. 2ZZ's head was designed by Yamaha, they make the shiznet for Toyota. Every good Toyota head was designed by Yamaha. And yes, even the 2JZ-GE or 2JZ-GTE had head work done by Yamaha. The 1ZZ-FE was toyotas cheapo motor, they just use that in all their econo cars, it was meant to replace the 4A-FE basically.