Most bang For your Buck Sports Sedan

I'd like to know bewtween

Audi A4
Acura (whatever one it is)
BMW 330i
Mercedes C32
Infiniti G35X
Saab 93


I like the Infiniti, because it has the best deal, msot power, most technology. I jsut think they are great cars

BMW is the best on that list in my opinion.

1) Which A4? 1.8t, soon coming 2.0t, or the 3.0?

2) Acura in this price range is the TL

3) The Benz C32 is a $50k AMG car, I think you mean the C320

Now that thats out of the way, my opinion is that the best car there is the BMW 330i. Best styling in the class, awesome handling... honestly, I can't say enough about how awesome the 3-Series is. The 330i has won pretty much every single comparison any magazine has ever put it into. Only downfall is that its a bit less powerful then the G35, which will change with the E90.

Out of those I would say the BMW.

Overall in that price range, VOlvo S60R.

I'd have to go with the G35; it's a bit cheaper than the 330i, and it has significantly more power. The handling isn't quite as good, but it's very close. I can understand getting the BMW, though; it has a 'feel' to it that Infiniti can't hope to emulate.

I smell a 330 vs G35 debate brewing......the 330 is alot of bang, but its a hell of alot of buck....you are paying a very large amount towards the BMW name.......the G35 is only slightly off the 330 in car comparisons, and its about 5G cheaper (Canadian).....I have to take the G35 in this

Yea if it's bang for your buck...it's the G35 easily...

the Saab is a pretty good car too... i think almost all of their cars are turbocharged as well...

Yeah, the 9-3's are pretty quick, but the FWD kinda kills them.

Also, let's not forget the Acura TSX. The G35 and 3 Series both made Car and Driver's 10Best list in 2004, but so did the TSX. It may not have the performance of the other two, but the low base price, good gas mileage, unquestionable reliability, and large standard feature list make it an excellent value for the more sedate shopper.

I think the TSX is considered to be in a class below the G35 and 330i. It costs $27k, has 200bhp, and is FWD. For the price, its a pretty good car, but its not as good as the $30+ cars, (TL, 330i, G35, etc.). C&D compared it to the Volvo S40 T5, Subaru Legacy GT, and Audi A4 1.8t (non quattro), and the TSX won.

I think the Acura TL is more comparable to the Lexus ES 330 and Infiniti I35, mainly because they are also midsize and FWD. You're probably right about the TSX being a couple rungs lower than the 3 Series and the G35, but it's still a compact car just like them, and it's still the entry-level car of its division. Acura doesn't make RWD cars (except for the NSX, of course), so I guess they don't really have a true competitor. However, FWD is a plus for some people (namely those who drive in rain and snow a lot), and the lower price just goes to show what a good value it is.

This is a toughie. Audi has definately fallen from grace in this regard with the A4. The styling is great, but if you want a car that behaves as an A4 should break out the wallet.

Saab just does not get it at all. Nothing happening.

Mercedes will give you a C Class for a great price, and the styling and looks are there for that money. But the engine, no thanks. If the engine was better in base trim this might be my pick, but not as is.

BMW's 3-series is quite nice, but it costs. Take the "buck" out of bang for the buck and maybe. But as long as money comes into play......To give BMW credit at least they do not offer a sub-standard setup as Mercedes and Audi do in an attempt to sell more cars.

Here is where it really gets interesting to me. The G35 offers a lot of car for the money, but the TSX offers a lot of car in it's own right for even less money. I would have to think quite a bit between those two finalists if it were really my money on the line.

However, you left off the obvious pick IMHO.....Volvo. I can get an S60R for 37,935 destination and all. If you want the moonroof add $1200 and another $550 if you want heated seats for a total of $39,685 dollars. Other than that the car is loaded to the hilt in base form.

To buy a 3-Series that competes with this car in base form I have to get a 330i sedan and add leather seats and the Premium package at a minimum which totals $38,595. That is more than the S60R is in base trim, and the BMW still does not offer everything the Volvo does in base trim!

To make the BMW comparable to the "loaded" version of the S60R I optioned out above costs about 43,500 large. Or, just shy of 4 grand more than the S60R which still has more content and much more hp!

I like BMW, but for not a lot more than a loaded G35, which is reputed to be a bargain, I can get a truly loaded S60R that easily opowers anything in it's price range and gives me awd. Not to mention the S60R is easily the limousine of this group from a standpoint of ride comfort.

This one is a no-brainer for me.

why no Cadillac CTS?

The CTS is more of a sports sedan than the STS. And on that note, why no CTS?

I'd honestly say that the supercharged Pontiac Bonnevilles were more of a bang for the buck than any of those cars, but if we're limited to those then you're getting more car for your dollar with the Infiniti G35 than the others.

However, I'd stay away from the AWD option. It adds too much weight for too little benefit and many reviews of the G35X have said that it spoils the balance of the FM platform and absolutely kills the braking.

Also, you can't get the AWD version with a manual tranny.

I'd pick the Saab any day. I haven't tried all of the alternatives, but I've tried a 320d and didn't like it much. The Saab is the safest car in terms of crash results, has a reasonable sticker price and comes with only turbopowered engines. Furthermore, it's got the best seats I've ever sat in and the looks are to die for in my opinion.

You can buy one with leather and bi-xenons (and of course real Brembos, performance oriented AWD, 300 hp, 6-speed, active chassis, etc.) for $34,270 delivered and that includes a free mini-vacation for two to Europe:

http://www.volvocars.us/NR/rdonlyres/42BBA03B-CE18-4532-8E31-216421B3AC92/188754/S60RTourist082704.pdf

The Cadillac CTS is the obvious best bang for the buck.

But since it's not up there, I'll go with the Infiniti.

Well, bang for your buck Sports sedan you say? Nothing comes close to a Holden Commodore SS, which is basically a modified V Body platform hooked up to an LS1 and Tremec T56. All for something like US$24,000. More space than anything there as well.

http://www.users.on.net/~nweber/commodore/vy/images/vy-ss01.jpg



Of course, the Commodore is not sold in the United states. So I think it comes down to either the BMW 325i or the Infiniti G35. Both offer great engines, good RWD chassis' and (In the case of the BMW) crisp styling.

But here in Minnesota where G35xandTrailblazer and I live, it's good to have AWD available on a car. It may decrease the braking a little, but the added traction makes up for it during the winter. So I go for Infiniti on this one.

I would have gone with Audi, but is not as sporty as Infiniti.

Infiniti G35...is this really a surprise?

This is my choice becasue:
-i own one.
-much cheaper than most if not all of its rivals.
-great engine.
-great handling (95-98% of a 3-series).
-lots of space.
-comfortable ride.
-EXCELLENT RELIABILITY!!!
-over in japan it's called a SKYLINE :evillol:

im baised...don't bitch at me :biggrin:

Infiniti G35...is this really a surprise?

This is my choice becasue:
-i own one.
-much cheaper than most if not all of its rivals.
-great engine.
-great handling (95-98% of a 3-series).
-lots of space.
-comfortable ride.
-EXCELLENT RELIABILITY!!!
-over in japan it's called a SKYLINE :evillol:

im baised...don't bitch at me :biggrin:
If you saw what the previous non-GTR Skylines were like, you'd be thinking that was a bad thing, trust me.


The manual gearboxes were nice and slick and the RB25DET ones had good motors, but the good bits ended there.

immediate bang for buck?
or long term thing?

i mean, out of the cars listed, only the german cars are going to maintain a decent price when it's time to sell on.

Au contraire....Audi and Mercedes aren't exactly setting records for residuals these days. BMW is doing quite well of course but the highest residual of any mass market vehicle right now is not German but it's Swedish. Any guesses?


I need to check current numbers but I think as a line of vehicles Porsche is tops with BMW much higher than the rest.


immediate bang for buck?
or long term thing?

i mean, out of the cars listed, only the german cars are going to maintain a decent price when it's time to sell on.

drunken monkey, I don't know how it is on that side of the pond, but in America, only BMW holds value better than the Japanese luxury brands. The G35 or IS 300 will hold value almost exactly as well as a 3 Series.

On this side of the pond BM's hold their value better than just about anything else and certainly much better than ANYTHING Japanese. The issue of resale value is one that is often (and crucially) ignored when buying a car. Which is why it usually makes sense (at least over here) to splash out the extra on the BMW as you will lose less on depreciation....

I'd take the beemer.

Your Japanese cars must be built like junk, because Lexus and Acura are right up there with BMW over here.

Here in the U.S. Acura and Lexus have all the European makes beat when it comes to reliability. However all the Japanese makes trail BMW here as resale is more than reliability - it's also desirability (image in some parts of the country), driving experience for others, etc.

Your Japanese cars must be built like junk, because Lexus and Acura are right up there with BMW over here.

In quality, Lexus and Acura are THE top of the list. BMW is 12 or somthing (don't hold me to that statisic). But Audi, BMW, and Benz all hold higher resale values than Acura or Lexus. Which is good. You can get a reliable, luxurious car for cheap. But in America, image is everything. As long as your beating the next guy's car.

I dunno, I always hear very mixed opinions on the reliability of German cars. Some claim they are the most reliable cars ever, while others claim that they are built like crap (mainly the newer ones). However, I have never heard someone say that an Acura or a Lexus was unreliable. And besides, the Japanese brands have much, much better customer support than the cocky Germans. Parts and service are cheaper too (and PLEASE don't tell me that BMWs are only expensive to work on because the dealerships inflate the price. That's fine, but some of us don't know how to or don't like to work on their own cars, and if BMW can't get their dealerships to bring the costs down, then that is a blemish on that brand).

Your Japanese cars must be built like junk, because Lexus and Acura are right up there with BMW over here.
They're just the same as everywhere else. I could buy two 2001 IS200's for the price of a 325i SE of the same year and the 325i wasn't all that much more than the IS200 when new. I really don't give a shit how reliable a Lexus is, if they lose money that quickly, then they're a bad purchase, because Lexus may have fewer problems than BMW, but the incidence rate is something close to like 1 or 2 problems less on average per car and a the problems on BMW and Audi in particualar are usually niggly little electrical things that sort themselves out (If we forget Audi's now fixed Igition coil pack saga on the 1.8T motors).

I'd love a Honda Accord 2.4 (aka TSX) it's a simply divine car, but I can't justify the huge loss in value that hits the car especially in the earlier years.

Kman- here's some people calling a Lexus unreliable- http://www.lexlovers.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-22.html

As for your servicing claim, it's very possible to service a BMW by yourself (At least 3 series and pre-2003 5 series), if you know how to do the very basic things such as changing lubricants, brake pads (Which is a dream with BMW, so easy) fuses, camblets and air filters then you'd find a BMW quite a doddle to work on, because that's all that tends to need doing, up until 200-300,000 Km's if the car is looked after properly, the engines are incredibly durable, so it's hardly like you'll need to be doing a rebuild. Parts are awesome as well, they're not at all hard to source from outside of the dealer and it's MUCH cheaper.

Sadly I'm beginning to think more and more that the myth of BMW unreliability is coming from American/Japanese car owners trying desperately to fault the cars and blowing the facts out of proportion in the process.

I never said BMWs are unreliable, I said I heard mixed reviews. I have a feeling that you're right, though, the naysayers are blowing it out of proportion. Anyways, that's too bad that Lexuses and Acuras drop value like a rock over there. I really wonder why that is, if they are just as reliable as the Germans. Maybe it's the stigma of having a pre-owned Japanese car, who knows. Over here, that's a pretty nice thing to have, compared to a pre-owned American car, for instance.

Your Japanese cars must be built like junk, because Lexus and Acura are right up there with BMW over here.
Nope. The vast majority of Japanese cars sold in the UK are well built. And we do have Lexus over here, but not Acura.

Nope. The vast majority of Japanese cars sold in the UK are well built. And we do have Lexus over here, but not Acura.
We do have two Acuras, they just happen to be badged as Hondas.


Those'll be the Legend (That poor car was embarassing for Honda, at least in it's last incarnation, the heftiest depreciation ever. Bring on the awesome new one, though) and our new Accord (Otherwise sold as the TSX when an Acura). I don't see the cars depreciating any slower or selling any faster if they badged them as Acura's, though.


Oh I almost forgot the NSX :redface:

I thought there were some (small) differences between Hondas & Acuras?

Other than the badges, not a hell of a lot was different really.

The 01+ Integra (Japan only, unless of course you Grey Import) and the RSX are almost the same, the Integra Type R being slightly more stripped out and a small bit faster due to higher compression.

The Honda Integra and Acura Integra ('85-'01) are identical

The Acura TL and Honda Sabre are identical

The TSX and Accord are almost identical, the difference being we are also offered the diesel and 2.0 instead of just the 2.4

The Acura NSX is identical to a Honda NSX

The Acura RL (and old Legends) are the same as our Honda Legends. etc.

The Acura CL was the exception here, though it was based around the US-Market Accord, it was WAY different at the same time (Especially the Type S, yummy)

when you hear people talk about the high build quality of japanese cars it's unsually in reference to what they were doing about 10 years ago.
compared to back then, they have shot up their levels of quality and are up there with the best of them albeit still a little lacking in the design stakes and still prone to the occasional squeek.
they don't always use the best of materials either, especially in the interior where you feel/notice it most.
(flimsy, hollow dashboards anyone? doors that clank instead of clunk?)

when you hear of people talking about bad build quality of german cars, its also usually in reference to what they were doing 10 years ago.
this time, the maker they are usually talking about will be mercedes benz.
once upon a time, they would make a car then price it.
somewhere along the lines, the engineers got shoved aside by the accountants and they started to make cars to a cost.
that change in direction meant that their production values dropped a little in order to please the number crunchers.
in general, they are all still very well put together machines (1st gen A-class aside - strange how a smart car always felt more solid than an A-class....).
it's just that some of them are not as good as they used to be.

there's also some truth that the people who buy a japanese car are usually more forgiving, knowing that they have bought a car that is "not as good as the germans".
i've never known anyone who bought a brand new japanese car to take it back to get a squeek fixed.
on the other hand, i do know at least two people who have done that when their BMW developed a little squeek when you press on the dash or shuffle in your seat.....

That list bit is very true, drunken monkey. curtis73 made a nice post a while ago about the "elasticity" of the reliability ratings. Sure, BMWs get a lot of problems reported, but most of the problems are extremely minor, trivial things that no one but BMW buyers would notice. There is just a higher standard for the German cars.

I would have to go with Acura. My mom and I just went to our local Acura dealer because she wanted to discuss a possible early termination for the new TL or the new RL (she has an '03 3.2TL Type-S). After looking at the new TLs and RLs, I left the dealership in awe in how nice those cars are getting. My mom also test drove the TL that day and what a sporty and luxurious car that is, all around the mid to upper $30k range. You get so many things standard in that car, plus you have amazing reliablity and you get all that sport and technology along with it. IMO, Acura has the best deals so far and the "most bang for your buck" statement fits very nicely with the Acura name. And the RL is just plain amazing. I think that car would beat the 5-series and the E-class anyday in comparison. As for residuals and all that crap, bleh, I'm only 15 lol. But this is for in general, "most bang for your buck" in this class.

As for a specific, I am torn between the Volvo S60R, and the TL.
My verdicts:
Volvo S60R: Great looks (especially with the extra performance pkg), great performance, top-notch saftey standards, great technology, still ahve that luxury without sacrificing performance, good reliability (mom had a 2000 V70R), AWD that doesn't affect the car's performance like some other cars do; this is a high performance luxury sedan that's got the looks, performance, technology and reliability all without burning a hole in your wallet
Downside: low-profile tires can cost you money if you hit the wrong bumps
Acura TL: Great looks, nice performance, so many damn things come standard, top-notch luxury (I'm pretty sure as hell that they won't be called near-to-luxury sedans anymore), reliability is amazing, chock-full'o-technology, really fits the "most bang for your buck" statement
Downside: Where's the Type-S model?

But after I thought about it, I would choose the S60R in this comparison if I were to get specific.

Mercedes C-Class: bleh, you're getting old, need a better engine and quality and reliability history is questionable
BMW 3-Series: great car, got the performance, got the luxury, still rather small for me (and I am 15 and still growing), German engineering+technology, but still a bit pricey are we?
Audi A4: Another great car, great styiling, got the performance (after the S models and S packages), got the luxury, German engineering+technology; still built by VW, so I hear reliability can be questionable sometimes and the 3.0 still can use a little bit more power
Saab 93: cool styling, still swedish built, got the technology and performance, but where are the models to compete with Volvo's R lineup? Plus I hear servicing sucks
Subaru Legacy: Got the power and performance, AWD, got the looks and reliability but can we get a little more fancier if you want to run with these other guys?

So there ya have it :)

"I think that car would beat the 5-series and the E-class anyday in comparison."

Matters which 5-series of E-class you choose. I could see the RL beating the 525, but the 530 may be hard to overcome. The RL would be competing against the E350, yes i said 350-new v-6 w/268hp, but i am not sure it would win. In my opinion, the new 5-series has more downfalls than the e-class (iDrive, styling, lack of focus on driving experience-compared to E39), so it doesn't look as good when compared to the RL. The benz doesn't have many downsides, so i think it will be tough for the RL to beat it. One area in which both german rivals fall to the RL is in terms of reliability. in recent years, japanese cars have shown much better reliability than their german counterparts.

ACCELERATION (0-60/1/4mile)
bmw (530i-normal/sport): 7.4/15.5@90.4 - 6.8/15.2@92.4
benz (E350): website claimes 6.5 0-60, but benz is usually conservative (an slk350 w/same engine is 5.4/13.6@103.3, so imagine what a car that weighs 472lbs more will do. every 100 pounds added results in about a .1 increase in the 1/4mile, so a new E350 should be around a 14.1-14.4. I calcualted these estimates by taking taking into account all of the tests magazines have done on the slk.
acura (RL): 6.7/15.0@93.5

HP
bmw (530i): 255@6600rpm
benz (E350): 268@6000rpm
acura (RL): 300@6200rpm

TORQUE
bmw (530i): 220@2750rpm
benz (E350): 258@2400-5000rpm
acura (RL): 260@5000rpm

PRICE
bmw (530i): $46,500
benz (E350): $50,770
acure (RL): $49,100

One more thing, the NEW a4 now has a 255hp v6, so it isn't underpowerded. u must be thinking of the recently phased out a4 w/220. if the old audi and the benz need more hp, the u should have included the old bmw. albeit, the new 330i (actually up on the bmw's website) has 255hp, and i think the new c-class will have a 268 v6 from the current E350 and the SLK350.

LATE MODELS (minus the benz)
audi (4/6): 170/220
bmw (6/6): 184/225
benz (4/6/6): 189/168/215

NEW MODELS
audi (4/6): 200/255
bmw: (6/6): 215/255
benz: (not sure of what else besides the 6): maybe 268


the competitors are moving forward, so we'll see how this bodes for the new RL and other acura models.

I meant the RL can beat the 5-series and E-class in general with standard options, certain technology and especially style and looks but not so performance wise. I know the RL can beat the 530i, because the RL goes 0-60 in a better 6.5-6.7 seconds whileas the 530i is still in the 7 second range. But as for the E350, it's only a couple miliseconds faster. Not really much of a noticeable difference.

By the way, with the coming of the new 3-series, BMW will be featuring their new inline-6 engine.

it seemed like you answered your own question, u like the infiniti, go for it

1) when comparing cars based on power and torque BMW usually doesn't look nearly as good as they actually are. BMWs are all about the feel of the car, steering, and handling. Theres only so much numbers can tell you. Many comparisons have much weaker BMWs like the 330i beating out cars like the G35, which have more power then the BMW. The thing about BMWs, is that they have a driver first philosophy, where as Benz and Lexus are more oriented towards being passanger cars. Honestly, when comparing a 330i to a GS330, or a ES330, I would rather be a passanger in the Lexus then the BMW, but being behind the wheel of a Lexus doesn't feel much different from behind the wheel of a Camry (exception in the IS300). The reason the C-Class, G35, A4, CTS, etc all fall short of the 3-series in comparisons and in sales is the feel you get from the car that you don't get from the others.

2) The E90 330i has a better 3.0L with 255hp. The same engine is going into the 530i, X3 3.0, and X5 3.0.

3) If you actually analyze the why BMW's reliability has gone down recently you'll find most of the problems people have involve the IDrive system (5,6,7 series) that is prone to programming issues (for some reason it reverts to the German language in US models...) Other then that, BMWs (especially the 3-series) are pretty close to Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura in reliability. Another reason BMW's resale is so high is that unlike Acura and Toyota, BMW's still feel pretty similar to when you bought them when they have 100,000 miles on them, which many Lexus and Acura owners can't claim.

1)BMW's still feel pretty similar to when you bought them when they have 100,000 miles on them, which many Lexus and Acura owners can't claim.

well i wouldn't say that, alot of my friends who drive imports, have very nice cars reguardless of the miles, my friend has a 92 camry with like 122k (or so) miles on it and the engine is still very smooth, when the ac turns on you barely notice, n then i have some friends that have bmw's that are newer that are falling apart

what im tryin to say is that its not only bmw that feels the same after so many years, it is easily achieved by equal or lesser imports

but i gotta also say that as good as the infiniti sounds, nissan/infiniti owners i know say the "shakes" come early, different build quality from honda/toyota, my uncle got an 03 altima when it was new, a month later he said he regretted the decision because it wasn't "new" in comparison to other cars he has had

as for the "feel" of the car, i can kinda relate to what you're talking about, i borrowed my aunts 5 series and it was a completely different experience from driving my accord

"I meant the RL can beat the 5-series and E-class in general with standard options, certain technology and especially style and looks but not so performance wise. I know the RL can beat the 530i, because the RL goes 0-60 in a better 6.5-6.7 seconds whileas the 530i is still in the 7 second range. But as for the E350, it's only a couple miliseconds faster. Not really much of a noticeable difference."


1. Standard Options: The RL has a ton of standard options. I agree with you on this.
2. Certain technology: i guess, i don't know what is so innovative, but the RL gets the benefit of the doubt.
3. Style/Looks: I can see your point for the 5-series (minus the new M5), but not for the e-class. the E is a great looking car, but the RL is generic. if you were to cover the badge i wouldn't be sure which japanese car company made it.
4. Performance: Yes, the RL can beat the BMW with the OLD 225hp engine. The performance numbers in my post were from the 225hp version, and not the new 255hp version. If the 225hp 530i is close to the 300hp RL (6.8 vs. 6.7), then I can see the BMW taking the edge w/the new engine. I said 6.5 for the Mercedes because that's what their website said, but mercedes, and bmw, are usually conservative with their performance numbers.

Thus, i wrote: "benz (E350): website claimes 6.5 0-60, but benz is usually conservative (an slk350 w/same engine is 5.4/13.6@103.3, so imagine what a car that weighs 472lbs more will do. every 100 pounds added results in about a .1 increase in the 1/4mile, so a new E350 should be around a 14.1-14.4. I calcualted these estimates by taking taking into account all of the tests magazines have done on the slk."

My point in being generally negative about the RL is that I don't really think it is distinctive enough to dominate it's segment. This car doesn't strike me as something revolutionary, such as the G35 in its segment, but it seems to have merely caught back up to the competition. BTW, 6.7 out of 300hp is not very impressive. A very heavy S430, with 275hp, is capable of a 6.8 0-60 and 15.1@94.0 in the 1/4mile w/the new 7G transmission...that car has been on the market since 1999. The RL is not a bad car by any means, but it is, by no stretch of the imagination, a great one.


"but i gotta also say that as good as the infiniti sounds, nissan/infiniti owners i know say the "shakes" come early, different build quality from honda/toyota, my uncle got an 03 altima when it was new, a month later he said he regretted the decision because it wasn't "new" in comparison to other cars he has had"

I am sorry to hear about your uncle and his experince with the altima (good thing I didn't get one), but I have not had any "shakes/rattles". My car has about 40,000miles on it (it's a 2003, sedan, auto), and I do not have ONE rattle. The materials and seats are also holding up very well (even the "cheap" center console"). Don't know what to tell ya :dunno:

bleh, we all have our opinions. :)