white smoke, blue, sludge ...

I, too, have startup puffs of smoke on my 2000 camry. I've been reading old posts relating to this subject, and have felt that not enough attention was being given to the fact that so many similar problems are being stated. I am 45 years old. I have been through old and new cars ... about 10, and never have seen this. My Camry started smoking about 40k, and has increased steadily over the last 30k. It's only during startup, mostly cold startup.

I've read suggestions of head gasket and valve stem seal troubles as the culprit, but it seems OBVIOUS that this problem does not lie with the consumer. Anyway, I think, as usual, the dealers are blaming any and every possible part or person, rather than with the product/Toyota.

I found a great string on this subject which mentions some interesting information. Before I place blame, I want to know the facts. I bought the car new. I've changed the oil like clockwork. THIS NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT VERY CLOSELY. The string below concerns the issue; the link below that is a direct petition where you can participate. Anyone with startup smoke, sludge ... etc, MUST read these links. http://www.cartrackers.com/Forums/live/Toyota/97.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

Cheers,
Joe

Do you have poor gas mileage? I have a 2000 Camry CE (4 Cyl) with 23 MPG highway, can it be due to sludge? How do we check for sludge?

Did u buy the car new or used?

Greetings Joe,

I've been on the Cartrackers site before and was part of this topic on another thread. The sad thing about that site is that most of the people there are so ignorant from preaching theory, is that they pay absolutely no attention to reality. :cwm27:

As a result, the only purpose that site actually serves is a propoganda playground for someone named Charlene Blake, who is some bitter person who obviously killed her car and now wants Toyota to pay for it and everyone elses.

Ummm, Ok...whatever...:screwy:

I've read the petition and the whole deal on the oil sludge problem.

Now, here's the truth....

The rule of thumb when changing oil is to change it every 3000 miles (synthetic can be 4000), and this applies to everyone; regardless of the car you drive. Because the fact is that it has nothing to do with the car, it has to do with the oil itself.

Conventional oil relies on petroleum for its lubrication properties. The petroleum actually starts burning off at 1500 miles. By the time you've reached 3000 miles, the properties are like 80-90% burned.

If you drive it past 3000 miles, the oil eventually gets "cooked up" and forms sludge because the petroleum used for lubrication is well burned off already.

So regarding your situation with your car, I would first check for leaks. If you do not have leaks, then your head gasket is probably fine.

Because you're getting the puffs of smoke when starting the car, then you need valve seals to be replaced.

If you honestly change your oil at 3000 mles, then you should not have sludge. Any more than that, and that could lead to sludge.

The only true way to check is to remove the valve cover and check for sludge.

People will argue this sludge issue left & right, but if you're going to get this resolved properly, consider this:

I currently own the following list of vehicles, not including my 2 Datsun 510's:

1982 Toyota Corolla - 4Dr
1982 Toyota Corolla - Wagon
1988 Toyota Camry - I4 automatic
1989 Toyota Camry - I4 5-speed
1989 Toyota Camry - V6 5-speed
1987 Toyota Minitruck - I4 5-speed

Oil is changed on all vehicles at 3000 miles.
I have no sludge problems on any of them.

Good luck on a resolution to your problem....

Toyrolla- I think you are off base. I too am a long time Toyota owner (1984 Tercel, 1992 Tercel, 1994 Corolla, 1995 Previa) and have never had a sludge issue. My (extremely honest) Toyota dealer admitted to me that Toyota had problems with sludging on the Camry AND the Sienna for several years and agreed that Toyota was not very forthcoming in helping their customers. Luckily for his customers, he went to bat for them and got resolution in most cases. I still love Toyota, but everyone makes mistakes.

Toyrolla- I think you are off base. I too am a long time Toyota owner (1984 Tercel, 1992 Tercel, 1994 Corolla, 1995 Previa) and have never had a sludge issue. My (extremely honest) Toyota dealer admitted to me that Toyota had problems with sludging on the Camry AND the Sienna for several years and agreed that Toyota was not very forthcoming in helping their customers. Luckily for his customers, he went to bat for them and got resolution in most cases. I still love Toyota, but everyone makes mistakes.

Please do not misunderstand me, I'm not defending Toyota.

My post was based on what is best for the care of his car, nothing more.

But before the finger of blame is pointed, you have to also look at how maintained the car was. Changing the oil as stated could be every 3000, 4000, or 5000 miles. It depends on the discretion of the owner.

A part of the argument regarding the sludge issue was that the Toyota manual supposedly states to change the oil every 5000 miles for the models affected. I do not know if this is true or not; but my common sense alone would never let oil run in my car for more than 3000 miles in the first place.

This isn't because of the capabilities of the Toyota product, but because of the capabilities of the oil itself.

So please understand that my post was not in defense of Toyota, it was in regards to preventive maintainance.

cblake2 on the other forum did a good job of making newer Camry's look like lemons and I'm sure alot of people with minor problems in their new Camry are now frantic after reading her posts, but I can name one source of information that can put most of your minds at ease. Consumer Reports magazine. If they aren't complaining about Camry problems (in fact, they rave about the amazing quality and reliability), then the Camry problems mentioned by cblake2 are pretty rare (though I don't deny that a design characteristic in those models made them a little more sensitive to bad oil).

Also, you have to account for human nature. If I make a mistake with my car that blows the engine (ie. missing a maintenance step etc), then I would definately be ticked off and try to blame everyone but myself, especially if it will save me a $3000(usd) repair bill. I'd also tend to elaborate on details and exhagerate a bit. I'm not trying to say that everyone with a Camry sludge problem is acting this way. I'm just trying to show that the odds are in Toyota's favor.

To sum it all up, don't always assume the worst case scenario if something developes with your engine (unless your oil light comes on, loud noises emenate from your engine, fireballs stream from your hood, are anything similar). I've had that puff of smoke on startup in my Camry for 3 years now and it still goes 3000 miles before burning a quart of oil. This is after 158,000 miles.

I am totally against dissing anyone. This site is about cars, right, not Charelene Blake.

Truth on the Toyota sludge generation autos can be found at several sites. Try these on for size:

http://www.autosafety.org - Look through the complaints filed for the Sienna, Camry, Avalon, Highlander, Lexus models and you will find plenty about this sludge problem. They also have some info on the Toyota sludge program in general along with the more recent VW sludge problem. The Toyota info includes the Auto News article that broke the story in 2002 and the letter than Toyota says they mailed to 3 million owners of the subject models (did you get one? I sure didn't)

http://www.thecomplaintstation.com - go to "T" then Toyota and read through two discussions - one on Experts Opinions on Engine Sludge and one on Recent Sludge Complaints. These are pretty telling.

http://www.yotarepair.com - this site even has a "Sludge Zone"

http://autos.msn.com - read the ratings from the aftermarket auto repair industry (go to top left of screen and plug in make and model, then go to ratings and reliability tab) - all the of the sludge vintage models are listed as having ***significant*** engine problems

On my 2000 Camry, the owner's Scheduled Maintenance Guide states the oil should be changed every 5000 miles or 4 months.

The problem was that in these models, Toyota made the holes smaller for the coolant to go through in the block and head castings, in order to increase the combustion chamber temperature, thereby increasing the fuel combustion and reducing emissions.

The problem was that the present day oils weren't able to take care of the increased heat in the head and valve area, resulting in gelling sooner than it would in a cooler running engine. The sludge occurs in this area.

It's best if these engines have their oil changed around every 3000 miles. It's also a good idea to use a premium oil or synthetic. I use a synthetic blend, and these oils, too, can withstand the extra heat.

I believe this is a rather small problem, that simply doesn't occur too often. Otherwise we'd hear much more about it. And, as stated above, Consumer Reports didn't think it was widespread enough to warrant the negative reports.

Just look around out on the road. These models are everywhere. For what it's worth, my 2000 Camry LE has 88,500 miles on it, and it doesn't smoke at all, at start-up or any other time. I just had the oil tested at Blackstone Laboratories, and the wear within my engine, and the properties of the oil were within normal limits after it's last oil change. I change the oil every 3k to 4k miles.

do you know if anyone has a slyline or silvia?

To sum it all up... what oil can I use to sit relaxed in my seat that the car's not going to stall on me... let's say between every 3000-4000 miles... most ppl use pennzoil 10w30 on most cars.

I have a 1998 Camry LE - 4 cyl - 63k miles - (bought it at 55k miles) - did the 60k mile (minus timing belt) stuff some time back.

What is the best maintenance schedule for such a car?

Thank you,

DFox

I don't think there is an answer to your question. If you drive normally and heat your engine up well each time you drive, then almost any oil will do the job. If you never let your car warm up because you only drive 3 min to the store everyday, then no oil will do its job and last 4000 miles without problems. Moisture and fuel dilution will make your oil garbage sooner than that. Having water (acid) in your oil will accelerate the sludge problem.