Domestics beat imports at their own game

Just curious what you guys think about the Team Mopar Viper driven by Samuel Hubinette winning the very first SCCA Formula Drift Competition?

There's already a thread about this that's pretty heated. There's people who are impressed, people who dislike it, and people who pretty much don't give a damn.

I don't think you can really say that(like people don't think american domestics can't drift and its an import sport only) seeing as theres people in japan drifting comaros and what not

I never said they could not drift... just that it was lame... but... like mentioned, this is a discussion in an entirely different thread.

"Cough Hater Cough"

:grinno:

So what if I am....?

i'm still stuck on why domestics drifting is lame?
considering that domestics have been tail out around corners since before these japanese drift mobiles existed?

what about bmw's drifting, or porsches, or ferraris?
by your same logic, that should be lame as well.

Kinda wish I didnt make this thread...

me too...

hold up, i thought perfect weight balance is key in drifting. and high revving, typically american cars aren't high revvers??? Also light weight is a huge advantage I thought, american cars tend to weigh a lot more. And don't flame me, I an a self-proclaimmed newb when it comes to drifting.

"American cars" is a pretty large generalization. The average American sedan, is not a Viper. I think that he won should be proof enough that they're good enough for what they wanted to do.

Well, it really depends on technique what you want your drift car to do, and as far as weight balance is concerned it varies wildly from car to car.

Believe it or not, GM's 4th gen F-body platform (1993-2003 Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Firebird) have quite admirable weight distribution for having large 5700cc V8's. This was accomplished with radical engine setback (seriously, you need octopus arms to reach the back plugs on those engines the things are so far back) and using lighter weight materials in the front end (thinner gauge steel for the outer front fenders compared to the rears). They're still hovering around a 53/47 weight split front to rear, but that's plenty acceptable when you consider how many other good drift cars start out at that figure stock.

As far as high revving, no, there aren't many OHV V8's that can turn upwards of 8000rpm, but then again, they don't particularly need to. With massive torque low in the rev range to break loose the rear wheels, a big American V8 driver can creep up on a corner, do a small feint, and then smack the throttle to kick the tail into the drift as opposed to the wild yawing needed with smaller displacement engines.

But then again, this is also fairly unspectacular as doesn't win as many points with the judges, hence many domestic drifters charge into corners, slamming onto the brakes to unload their lighter rear ends and bring them into a near spin, then rely on monstrous torque to maintain radical slip angles throughout the drift.

Technique, as always, is the compensation for any style of car's inadequacies.

IMO, I don't give a damn that they are drifting with american cars cuz, it's not like drag racing is exclusively for American cars, so why should drifting be exclusive for Japanese cars?

BTW, this import vs domestic cars thing is so stupid, probably most of the cars you see on the road are either made in canada or america (mostly america though). People don't realize that when they drive their 2-door civic si coupes, they are driving a domestic car.

i have no problem with American cars drifting, any competition is welcomed. What I don't like is that there are many closed-minded domestic owners who told me whenever I bring up drifting that "it is a quirky import-fad" just because American cars aren't really built up for drifting. Now that an American car has won a drifting competition, I bet these same close-minded fools will claim that American cars are better drifters and better than imports at everything.

after watching the video someone posted with the AE86 and the viper that won going together I see why he won, it was pretty impressive... although the AE86 was tearing it up to with about a 5th of the horsepower I'd guess... that just shows the variety that we are getting in the sport... me likey :)

like somebody said in the other thread about this thing, they said something about none of the real pros in that competitoin except hubinette, and i dont wanna get flamed or anything, this is just what somone else said in that thread

Giggle, that is the most flaming sig ever... :lol2:

BTW..Honda's US Plant is in Indiana i think..

Honda owns Marysville, Ohio.

I figured that and american car would be good in drifting. Think about it, all american cars are focused on power. The Viper, Corvette, and Pontiac GTO are massive power holders.

But its not like its all focused on power.

I dunno know I've had my fair share of domestic and import cars..I like them both..I've been drifting with a friend with a buillit mustang and we're both doing pretty well. Not pro or anything but the pump of going down a hill and drifting at around 50 plus into a 180 degree turn and then whiping that sucker back to an opposite turn is pretty cool to me. So yes I believe it doesn't matter what kinda car you drive its the driver that makes things happen.. So lets not get into this I hate import or I hate domestic conflict..its just gay..first of all most of you fools on this page live in America!!! think about it

..first of all most of you fools on this page live in America!!! think about it

So we should drop what we're doing and go buy mustangs. BECAUSE WE LIVE IN AMERICA. Oh god, I've been living a lie.[/sarcasm]

So we should drop what we're doing and go buy mustangs. BECAUSE WE LIVE IN AMERICA. Oh god, I've been living a lie.[/sarcasm]
Really not what I'm getting at... lol

I dunno know I've had my fair share of domestic and import cars..I like them both..I've been drifting with a friend with a buillit mustang and we're both doing pretty well. Not pro or anything but the pump of going down a hill and drifting at around 50 plus into a 180 degree turn and then whiping that sucker back to an opposite turn is pretty cool to me. So yes I believe it doesn't matter what kinda car you drive its the driver that makes things happen.. So lets not get into this I hate import or I hate domestic conflict..its just gay..first of all most of you fools on this page live in America!!! think about it

I'm curious to know... are your Mustangs AT or MT?

I'm curious to know... are your Mustangs AT or MT?
Their both manual..steeda tri ax short shifters

Well, I certainly don't get the anti-domestic sentiment. But that's no reason to be confrontational about it. I actually remember showing my boss an article about D1 this year. When he read the part about Rhys Millen getting booed for driving a Pontiac, he just shook his head and said "How many of these kids, I wonder, are sons or daughters of U.S. auto workers?"

It's sad that people flat out say that anything that isn't a Toyota, Mazda, or Nissan shouldn't be in drifting, but I feel that the best way to combat these people is to do what Samuel Hubinette and Rhys Millen and the guy with the Cobra replica did at Atlanta and drift something else well.

As the old sprint car (the ultimate in sideways motorsport) saying goes; Sit down, strap in, shut up, and hang on.

Well, I certainly don't get the anti-domestic sentiment. But that's no reason to be confrontational about it. I actually remember showing my boss an article about D1 this year. When he read the part about Rhys Millen getting booed for driving a Pontiac, he just shook his head and said "How many of these kids, I wonder, are sons or daughters of U.S. auto workers?"

It's sad that people flat out say that anything that isn't a Toyota, Mazda, or Nissan shouldn't be in drifting, but I feel that the best way to combat these people is to do what Samuel Hubinette and Rhys Millen and the guy with the Cobra replica did at Atlanta and drift something else well.

As the old sprint car (the ultimate in sideways motorsport) saying goes; Sit down, strap in, shut up, and hang on.

Hehe... Octy always has the best quotes :biggrin:

Well, if you like that bit of sprint car wisdom, here's a bit from "Wild Child" Jac Haudenschild upon being interviewed for setting a new track record at the dirt 1/2mile Eldora Speedway of (as I recall) 11.731seconds.

TNN: Jac, how'd you pull off that incredible lap?
Jac: Brought my brick.
TNN: What do you mean?
Jac: It was a brick lap. Pulled out a brick and tossed it on the gas.

wow i thought this thread was locked a while ago.......

i guess wut crazy hawiian said makes sense

domestics are cool i guess but cars like the viper w/ tons of power..i guess imo it isn't that hard to spin the tires around a turn and get the tail out..but this is formula D so let the domestic guys have their day in the sun...after all they didn't get very far in D1 usa..its like being the big fish in the small pond (for formula D) but once you go to events like D1 where you race against drivers that have been doing this for years the situation is reversed...

Well, we haven't seen Team Mopar at D1 yet, so who knows what that result will be. It's like I said before in another thread. We've seen Hubinette/Viper versus Pfeiffer/AE86. Now let's see Hubinette/Viper versus Ueo/AE86.

And, I'm sorry, but higher horsepower means harder to control. Wheelspin with tons of TORQUE (not horsepower) can be induced near instantaneously, but it becomes difficult to manage and grip becomes hard to come by and grip is still something you need. Factor in the Viper's very low center of gravity and ultra-stiff suspension (it's a competition car with less than 2 inches of suspension travel) and you don't have much read on the weight shift in the car so it's a knife-edge ballet.

You make it plainly obvious you haven't had much experience with cars of this nature, so try not to comment on what it's like to drive them.

i think another reason why ppl are getting on the domestics case is it IS a viper after all...one of the most expensive american supercars out there..i think alot of people rather cheer for cars that they have or can afford and not doing it on a big sponsors budget like mopar :2cents:

And Signal S15's, C-West/DRFT/Cusco FD's, and D-Sift Truenos are any less sponsored?

I'm sorry, but the D1 boys are just as much running high dollar, high tuned rides. The amount of money that gets spent modifying those cars can easily bring them up to the price of Hubinette's stock Viper Competition Coupe. There's not a stock engine or an untouched suspension in the whole lot of D1, and yet you're going to tell me that modding FD's, S15's, and Soarers is more cost friendly at that level of competition than buying an out of the box racer like the VCC and then tweaking the settings?

And, by the way, even if I let you slide on the Viper being an expensive supercar, then how do you explain the GTO, 1970-something El Camino, Cobra kit car, and manual trans Crown Vic that have all shown up at Formula Drift events this year? Also high-dollar super cars?

And how about the Camaros, Firebirds, and Mustangs that're showing up at amateur events? Must be pretty high dollar stuff.

Argh, one more time. This time with a logical argument.

Hi all. First off I just wanted to say thanks for all the support yall showed to the other (read non El Camino) local entries! OOOPS thats right there wasnt anybody talking about any of the other local entries! I guess since we were all in the ohhh so common imports (lexusIS300,R33 Skyline,AE86,S13)we just blended in with the rest of the cars!!!!! :uhoh:

Here is an exerpt from the FormulaD rulebook that I was given when I registered for the event!


ELIGIBLE VEHICLES:

A)Any two or four door coupe,sedan or sports car.
B)Must be a production car with a minimum build run of 250 units
C)Must maintain original uniboby or frame
D)Vehicles that do not meet the above criteria must be approved by the series


Now seeing as the Viper Hubinette drives is a COMPETITION coupe with a full tube chassis and full carbon fiber body, I dont see how this car is really leagal or on a level playing field with the rest of the cars competing. The only way I see this car getting into the series was by greasing the SCCA's palm! These things are REAL race cars. Not street cars that have been converted.

I have no problem with a Viper being in the series I just think they should have used a regular production Viper instead of th CCP. I do believe Hubinette deserved to win (he is an acomplished ICE racer for god's sake) I just think it shoulda been in a REAL Viper!

lol

Yeah, the VCC is a tube frame race car.

Wrong.

The VCC is an ACO homologized GT class competitor. Meaning it is a stock chassis (read, stock unibody) car. The ONLY tube chassis Vipers out there in SCCA competiton ran in Trans Am without the Viper V10.

RSportscars.com's write-up on the Viper Competiton Coupe (http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/viper_competition.asp)

The Dodge Viper Racing Legacy Continues

Dodge has delivered the next chapter in the Dodge Viper racing legacy: the new Viper Competition Coupe.

"We knew when we introduced the Dodge Viper GTS-R race car that it was ambitious, yet extremely logical," said John Fernandez, Director, Dodge Motorsports Operations. "We set out to develop a history and tradition for the ultimate American sports car - and the Dodge performance icon - that would cast a halo over every racing endeavor, and every car and truck we built.

"The Dodge Viper has exceeded our highest goals for what an American sports car should be. And now, as loyal Dodge owners receive their versions of the third chapter in the car's history - the 2003 Dodge Viper SRT-10 - we can't lose sight of the heritage that Viper has built. And with that, we've developed a new generation of the Dodge Viper racing car - the Viper Competition Coupe."

With a coupe-shaped carbon/Kevlar body based largely on the Dodge Viper GTS/R concept car shown at the 2000 North American International Auto Show, and a track-ready chassis based on the new 2003 Dodge Viper SRT-10 convertible, the Viper Competition Coupe should emerge as a serious competitor from the first lap.

Dodge expects to build about 60 cars in the first year, but have the ability to expand production as demand grows. Plans include technical support for competitors at all major events.

The Viper Competition Coupe makes extensive use of production pieces to keep the estimated retail price slightly more than $100,000. With 520 horsepower and 540 lb.-ft. of torque on tap, the Viper Competition Coupe will deliver racers an extremely high level of performance for the price.

A full complement of racing enhancements, including cage, window net, fire-suppression system, six-point restraints, racing slicks, differential cooler and ducted brakes ensure that the Dodge Viper Competition Coupe is track-ready as delivered. The Viper Competition Coupe cannot be titled for highway use.

The Viper Competition Coupe's sleek concept car shape retains the 2003 Viper SRT-10 convertible's windshield, and as a result, affords the driver two inches of additional headroom as compared to the GTS/R concept car.

Among those events in which the Dodge Viper Competition Coupe is eligible to compete are:

Skip Thomas Viper Racing League - The Viper Competition Coupe will have its own class and be the primary wheel-to-wheel event at the Viper Days weekends
Grand American Cup - The Viper Competition Coupe will be eligible to compete (when homologated) in the Grand Sports Class with the Chevrolet Corvette and Porsche 911
Speedvision World Challenge - The Viper Competition Coupe will be eligible to compete (when homologated) in these American Le Mans Series support races
The Competition Coupe's predecessor - called the Dodge Viper GTS-R and based on the 1996 Dodge Viper GTS Coupe - passes on one of the most distinguished pedigrees in the modern history of endurance racing. The Viper GTS-R earned five international GT championships including the 1999 and 2000 American Le Mans Series GTS class titles and the 1997-1999 FIA GT Championships. The Viper finished 1-2 in the GTS class in three consecutive years -1998-2000 - and notched an amazing overall win at the 2000 Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona, the first for an American production-based car.

The Dodge Viper race car began life in the GT1 class in 1996. The escalating costs persuaded the manufacturer to switch to the GT2 class for the 1997 season. The Viper's production volumes (approximately 2,000 annually) qualified it for the category and it embarked on a racing program that was to earn it a reputation as the most successful American production-based racing car of all time.

As Dodge began to focus more of its engineering resources on development of the next Viper - the 2003 Viper SRT-10 - it was announced in December 2000 that Dodge would take a hiatus from its factory support for Viper endurance racing.

There are no plans at this time to homologate the Dodge Viper Competition Coupe for American Le Mans Series or 24 Hours of Le Mans racing


Again, people who don't know what they're talking about making rash blanket statements in order to seem more knowledgable. You'd all have a much better argument if you just said "We're embarassed that the very overhead valve dinosaurs we've been poking fun at for years and the non-Japanese drivers we ignored are now entering the sport competitively and we want it to stop."

competitivly in forumula D yes, in D1 no ways...the GTO didn't do well at all in D1 the american drivers still need more practice before they can keep up w/ ueo and NOB, not to say that they don't have TREMENDOUS ammounts of skill i.e r. millen,k. gushi, etc etc but america still has a loooong way to go

i will be watching w/ great interest tho to see what happens when mopar competes in D1...

P.s. laylas keeper lighten up a little huh? its not like you aren't prone to making mistakes too. i.e. the drifting thread about the SC300 rx-7 etc where you said that NO SC300s were made in manual...you should also look into your info too.

Try noting that I said "as far as I know". I wasn't sure, ergo I didn't state it as fact.

I gave the information I knew in an attempt to assist a forum-goer. You laid down blanket statements debunking domestic cars - particularly the Viper - as being good for the sport of drifting. You talk about how winning in Formula D is "being the big fish in a small pond" when we're talking about a series that's in its first year of existence and is already packing fans through the gates and grabbing the attention of big name manufacturers. You talk about how the Viper is just drifting with power. You talk about how people don't like the Viper because it's an expensive supercar, and on and on with unprovable blanket statements or theories that are laughably unfounded.

You're misinformed, heavily biased, and irritating to no end. Don't try to insist that you made a mistake. You came out and said something you had no foundation to say, were then disproven by an experienced racer/motorsports journalist, and instead of gracefully accepting the truth decided to wage your own personal little war to defend the honor of Japanese cars that slide sideways everywhere.

You lose this one, Tetsuya, accept it and move along.

You lose this one, Tetsuya, accept it and move along.


Why is this SSSOOOOOOOO important to you Super Geek? Thats how I see you, sitting in front of the computer ALL DAY with a superhero costume on (mask and all) aserting your Geekiness on all of the opinion bearing people using the internet! Go Super Geek! I'm still working on a theme song.

Now I'm just an average guy (not an average guy with an IQ that I brag about to everyone) But isn't 60 cars in the first year less than B)Must be a production car with a minimum build run of 250 units

Wow how did you interpret, I do believe Hubinette deserved to win (he is an acomplished ICE racer for god's sake) I just think it shoulda been in a REAL Viper! as this?

You'd all have a much better argument if you just said "We're embarassed that the very overhead valve dinosaurs we've been poking fun at for years and the non-Japanese drivers we ignored are now entering the sport competitively and we want it to stop."

OMFG that whole comment makes no sense at all!!!!!!!

I own and have restored a 66 Mustang coupe (arguably the most "american" car of ALL time) so I am not poking fun at OHV dinosaurs by any means. Actually just the opposite the VCC is much to advanced to be compeeting in this venue! It has on board jacks for god's sake! In your own evidence to debunk me you undid yourself!

A full complement of racing enhancements, including cage, window net, fire-suppression system, six-point restraints, racing slicks, differential cooler and ducted brakes ensure that the Dodge Viper Competition Coupe is track-ready as delivered. The Viper Competition Coupe cannot be titled for highway use.

Can not be titled for highway use! What more do I need to say?

I gave the information I knew in an attempt to assist a forum-goer. :screwy: :disappoin :grinno: :eek7: :rolleyes: :lol2: :cwm27: Wow so many of these apply to this one statement???????? You don't assist, you bash and demean, and the really sad thing is you enjoy it!


:2cents: Later Super Geek

just to let ppl know i don't got no gripe w/ american cars competing in drift events i mean it IS america right? i just think that ppl wanna see cars they have ie hachi rokus 240s and for domestics stangs firebirds camaros etc...i did say it is one of the most expensive american supercars out there i mean really how many ppl can afford a viper?


and layla i said "it IS a viper after all...one of the most expensive american supercars out there..i think alot of people rather cheer for cars that they have or can afford and not doing it on a big sponsors budget like mopar "

out there i made no refrence to saying that camaros mustangs and el caminos were high dollar... i know if i saw the elcamino goin up against the viper i know i would be cheering for the elcamino i don't think the elcamino has the sponsorship of mopar or even ppl like alex don't have nearly the ammount of fundings as the viper does

i have my opinion and you have yours so lets leave it at that

Hmmm, America has a long way to go in drifting? Have you forgotten the thousands of grass roots drifters that compete weekly on dirt tracks across America? Supermodifieds, Sprints, Midgets, Offroad Trucks, Dirt/Flat track motorcyclers (masters of the All-wheel drift, with no brakes).

Give them the proper funding and tools. They'll do pretty damn good.

Rhys Millen was the youngest person ever to win Pike's Peak. People like Al Uncer, Mario Andretti, and Kurt LeDuc race(d) there. Takes skill to race a 12 mile long 'touge' run in the dirt.

Let's not forget the Millen prepped GTO was put together weeks before D1. They didn't have days and days of dial in time like the other teams have had with cars they've had for years.

Layla's Keeper is right, the VCC Viper is the real deal.

So what if the VCC Viper cannot be title for highway use? Take a look at the cars that were brought over from Japan for D1. Those were fully built race cars, they just happened to be street cars at one time. I highly doubt you could register those in Japan for street use legally. And their smog laws are stricter than ours. Technically if you modify your car with non-50 state legal parts. Your car becomes a OHV (Off Highway Vehicle). Your point is moot.

And personal attacks towards another memeber will not be tolerated TIREKILLER. It's considered Flaming and Harassment. Please keep your thoughts to yourself... or if you must take it to PM.

I only read a couple of these posts... but Layla, I'm gonna have to say Ueo/AE86 would win... hubinnete/viper was very impressive, but Ueo... dang... he just seems to make it flow so well I guess, I don't know... hes just freaking good haha

it's funny when people are irratating mods........ :lol:

"quality bannings since 04" My my my aren't you high and mighty Mr. Mod!

Why does it bother you forum trolls so much when other people express their opinions? That's what a FORUM is, a place to share ideas and opinions, and when necessary facts!

We are not talking about D1 so why do ya'll keep referring to cars/drivers from that series? We are talking about FormulaD in case anybody needs a reminder! I posted an exerpt from the FormulaD rulebook I was given when I competed at the Houston event. Which of you two (laylas keeper or redneck) drove in this event? I was pitted dirrectly next to the Mopar trailer and even helped them set up their pits on the Fri. before the event. I got to help push the car out of the trailer for them.


It comes down to this: nobody else in the series (FormulaD rember!) has a car that could not be titled even when it was brand new. All of the cars in FD including the GTO started life as regular street cars and were modified by the teams that use them to drift! The VCC is none of these things!

How many of yall agree that they should have started with a regular production Viper and then modified it to be competitive (as if it werent already) and represent the REAL Viper to the people who have wanted one their whole lives (Me).


Ban Me I Don't Care Forum Nazi's!

just lock this thread before it gets worse

How many of yall agree that they should have started with a regular production Viper and then modified it to be competitive (as if it werent already) and represent the REAL Viper to the people who have wanted one their whole lives (Me).




I would have to agree with you on this part tirekiller.Seeing as how all of the contestents began with a stock production model and modified it properly.

Other then this, u are just getting a little out of hand here buddy.Relax n slow it down.Nobody is going to ban you because you have yet to do anything that is bannable.

"quality bannings since 04" My my my aren't you high and mighty Mr. Mod!

Me? High and mighty? Sure if you think of me that way. Thanks, but to be honest I consider myself average.

Which of you two (laylas keeper or redneck) drove in this event?

Hmmm, true we didn't compete. But we're not idiots... and seeing as the event was in Houston. Oh about 1500+ miles from me, a bit far for me to compete in. I'll gladly wait till ForumlaD comes to my neck of the woods in California. But, of course I doubt I'll have a car to compete with 'legally' by then.

Ban Me I Don't Care Forum Nazi's!

Ban you? Me a Nazi?... Ha.

You're lucky I'm not one of the other mods who Ban if you fart in the same time zone as them.

I won't even bother warning you, cause that'll just make you flame up again. Vent all you want kiddo... it's healthy to let it all out.:thumbsup:

Please don't lock this. I am so enjoying reading this thread, not only do you ocasionally learn something, but you get to listen to rants fly back and forth in the air like so much baby food.
...and RedNeck, don't forget to metion drivers like Phil Hill and Dan Gurney. It may be far from grassroots racing, but Can-Am cars with around 1200hp would drift all over the place back in the day.
America has a long way to go in drifting indeed.

I'd like to point out that Hubinette is an import so the arguement about domestics doesn't count in his case.

I'd like to point out that Hubinette is an import so the arguement about domestics doesn't count in his case.

Big deal. So is Rhys Millen. Quite a few of the drivers are 'imports' themselves.

Big deal. So is Rhys Millen. Quite a few of the drivers are 'imports' themselves.

YOU GOTTA BE SHITTING ME
GOD DAMN DUDE ITS A FUCKING JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MY GOD WHAT THE HELL

I DON'T BELIEVE IT?!?!?!?!?!?! HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE ITS A JOKE?!?!

Note this post is half serious so the underlying message is "its a joke get over it" the rest was inserted for creative purposes.

JESUS CHRIST...............................

HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE ITS A JOKE?!?!

The same way sarcasm can be invisble over the internet.

the "I'd like to point out" is pretty much a slap in the face.

i thought you were serious too :P

the "I'd like to point out" is pretty much a slap in the face.

Which cannot be felt over the internet.

Which cannot be felt over the internet.

I tried but the screen started flickering.

i did it once, but the monmitor broke