FF Inertia Drift

Does anybody else practice ff drift WITHOUT e-brake? I have been practising since I got my licence (even before :) just a little...) and I can now braking drift, scandinavian flick and 2 corner inertia drift (braking drift followed by weight transfer to drift the other way) and high speed lift off oversteer better than all my friends with rwd cars. While i'm sliding at the corner entry anybody I see in rwd cars starts to porwerslide after the apex. BORING!!! Is there anybody else who uses these techniques or likes drifting without the e-brake?

For those who want to know: My car is a new mazda 2 with 16" enkei wheels, AVS ES100 tires, stiffer springs and a 21mm front anti-roll bar. The only mod to engine etc... is a louder exaust. The H-beam rear suspension provides excellent roll stiffness for drifting.

You should upgrade the rear swaybar. If the rear swaybar uses the typical style links, you can replace the little donut bushings in the links with poly ones that can be found easily. That, and just try to find a bigger rear bar. Somebody might make a cool rear swaybar upgrade kit with hardware and bushings included.

Just a suggestion. Sounds like you don't really need it though! Nifty car. Me and my friend just got back from a joyride in his MkII GTI. He loves left foot braking. He's got ES100's too, on 15" BBS (black w/ polished lip).

IN B4 TEH SOYO!!! OH NOES HERE HE CUMZORZ!!!

ugh... tell me you didn't get an exhaust just so it can be louder? RICE!
I think '323' drifts with his e-brake... I'm not so sure.... but he drifts a Mazda FWD 323... ask him...

It's easy to drift with FF cars . but u have to practice it daily, all what u have to do is breaking while u r inside the corner (( by using ur left foot )) and accelerate by using ur right foot at the same time. most of honda pro drifters do that

HONDA PRO-DRIFTERS? No such thing, kid! But I agree with that technique for FF drifting...

no such thing?
come now...
you've seen the video of the civic drifting in japan, i'm sure...
and you know there's an ff drift team in japan, right?

I want to see videos or pictures of you drifting! I have nothing against FF cars and i would be the first one to defend ff drifting against others... but i'm curious about your "techniques"

Do u use AVS ES100 all around?
U don't use e-brake at all? How fast are you going and where do you do your drifts? I recommend getting videos, as much as it feels like drifting from the inside of the car... it looks totally different from the outside.

And did someone mention "honda pro drifters"? ummm yah! right! way too much initial d my friend.

flylwsi,
I said PRO-DRIFTING, ass-head! Those are all amatuers!

Yeah. Exhaust mods right off the get-go usually set off some of my parimeter alerts.

He's got a point about all that amatuer power slide waddling on corner exit, though. The whole "drifting is slow" argument comes from this type of thing.

uh-huh... but some these kids think: "yeah, I'm gonna go all hachi-roku on your ass and beat you by drifting..." Can drift ever be fast though? Or just on certain corners... this topic is really bugging me!

did you seriously just call me an ass head?
did you know that there are people who compete professionally in fwd cars in drift competitions?
there's a video of one.
get over it.

it's not difficult to get oversteer in a fwd car w/o the e brake, the problem is keeping the slide going for more than 1 corner w/o the e brake.

1viadrft.
for someone who is still asking a ton of basic questions about this sport, please don't talk trash to me like you know everything.

As in PRO... I'm thinking D1GP, ass-head! LoL! Don't get sensitive on me! I'm not aware of any other PRO division! And I'm not aware of PRO FWD DRIFTING! Has anyone else??? I have nothing against FWD drift! I have actually been a supporter of FWD-DRIFT if you recall? I think I even mentioned THEY DO IT IN JAPAN? But not professionally, son!
Sorry, if I'm giving you the impression that I know everything... I don't know how you started presuming that... I thought maybe my questions would give an indication that I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING... no, I'm no pro-drifter! I'm not as technical as you guys! I just did it and did not know how.... LoL. Shit, I don't even drift anymore! But I'm still quite intrested... and I'm not afraid to ask questions...

d1gp is not the only pro level drift event.
you're a total ricer if you're thinking that.

you know there are more than one sanctioning body that hosts events, no?
just like there's another one in the states, that's a pro level drift sanctioning body.

where do you think the pros come from?
underground.
where do you think that ff drifters are at? underground.

and how about the guys that have, and do compete, in japan, with fwd cars?
are they not pro now?

come on...

ok, here we go.

1. My car doesn't have a rear sway bar, it uses a torsion beam rear link which is about 4" thick.
2. Nobody makes bushings for my car yet cos its only a new model.
3. I never use e-brake, I prefer to test my skill (not trying to look like a wanker) and it's easier on the rear brakes
4. I have got video and the angle is not small, generally 1 turn of opposite lock if i'm going big.
5. The exaust gives the car a bigger top end and more than anything I like listening to it.
6. Linking corners in fwd can be done, you brake drift the first corner right foot, then for the tighter second corner release the brake and the rear will grip then the weight transfer will throw the car back the other way. The second corner has to be immediate and tighter than the first or you'll be going too slow. I normally approach a 90' corner at 80kph and brake to 60kph at the entry. Just brake hard into the apex and the rear will swing round.
7. I use 4 ES100's
8. I have numerous 'option' and 'best motoring/hot version' DVD's so yes I am familiar with drifting.
9. I actually wanted to know if anybody else did this stuff...
10. I only LFB when I'm "grip driving", I just don't think you need it.

d1gp is not the only pro level drift event.
you're a total ricer if you're thinking that.

you know there are more than one sanctioning body that hosts events, no?
just like there's another one in the states, that's a pro level drift sanctioning body.

where do you think the pros come from?
underground.
where do you think that ff drifters are at? underground.

and how about the guys that have, and do compete, in japan, with fwd cars?
are they not pro now?

come on...

Alright... name one other PRO drift event that is sanctuary to FWD-DRIFT and I shall stand corrected. Deal???

*************I normally approach a 90' corner at 80kph and brake to 60kph at the entry. Just brake hard into the apex and the rear will swing round**********

I like! And you say you make 1 opposite lock turn! great! I used to do some drift on dry surface with my stock 323, but there is so much body roll that im scared to roll over everytime so I stopped :p
Now I only drift on water and snow.

Well to answer your question, I also drift with lift-off oversteer. It really feels more natural than using the e-brake. Between 60 and 80 kph, its possible to make the 323 oversteer w/o e-brake.


****it's not difficult to get oversteer in a fwd car w/o the e brake, the problem is keeping the slide going for more than 1 corner w/o the e brake****

ahah Flywsi you really know nothing about drifting! you are also confirming it in this thread too! What you just said here is completely non-sense! The hardest thing to do with FWD is to start the drift!! if you want to keep it drifting you just have to countersteer too much and it will drift so much it will probably result in a 180 if you dont do it right. You should invest less money on your supra, save few K$ and go to a racing school.

my supra... ?
really.
showing i don't know how to drift?
really...
since i've done nothing but defend the ability of fwd to "drift" a corner...
but hey, you've got your BS preconceived notion...
pardon my knowing how to drive a car...

hey...
check out what i found...
doesn't say anything about fwd, does it?

http://www.aarrf.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82&PN=1

I would not call myself, a "drifter" since I'm not too absorbed by this, but I do, and have used techniques, left foot braking, lift-off, etc. I like lift off, because the angle is very shallow, but you loose very little speed.
Left foot braking causes a more extreme change in direction.
I am however, curious as to how you can have any apreciable oversteer, prior to the apex, with FWD. Sure you can get trace ammounts of oversteer, but the rear end won't slide out of line, enough to be noticeable, or make a difference, until you've reached the apex...

I think he means he's letting the front end slip on entry but nailing the apex anyway. That is fast.

flylwsi, take it easy!
It is not to insulte you that I say you should go to a racing school. Everyone who mod a car should begin by himself to really take advantage of the machine.

take what easy?
you pretty much told me i don't know shit.
which you don't know.
why is it that when i actually start defending myself, and standing up to what you've said, i'm going to far?
come on... that's almost fair.

i think i've proved myself here, no?

well you said that keeping the car drifting is harder than starting athe drift when its a FWD

Maybe you are skilled with RWD and AWD, but I can ensure you that this statement is wrong for a FWD.

*I am however, curious as to how you can have any apreciable oversteer, prior to the apex, with FWD. Sure you can get trace ammounts of oversteer, but the rear end won't slide out of line, enough to be noticeable, or make a difference, until you've reached the apex...*


you are right to say that, its tough to have some appreciable oversteer w/o using the handbrake or feint.

hey guess what, your both wrong cuz FWD can't drift! MWAHAHA

Can someone please Ban Soyo? AGAIN. Hey, Soyo... i'd really like to see you drifting? Coz if you can't do it... shut it.

soyo, you're seriously annoying.
all your posts do is try to start fights.

i think that, for the most part, 323 and i are on the "same" page, or close (maybe not the same paragraph), but at least we can talk without putting down people who try to push the envelope.

how do you think that people who first started drifting were seen?
outsiders. rebels. made fun of.
get over it.

hey guess what, your both wrong cuz FWD can't drift! MWAHAHA



Soyo... This is a warning. How many times must we prove that a FWD platform is capable of drifting? There are tons of professional drifters in Japan that run FWD cars.... there's videos out on the internet.

Stop the flaming, you're the one who is wrong. If you're caught again trying to start another flame war you'll be recieving a week's paid vacation from AF.


Have a great day kiddo. :thumbsup:

I think Soyo's just trying to be an ass...

If there were ten more usuall's in here, his antics would probably go unnoticed. We just need more people, that's all. Well, there is one person I'd like to see go...

I find that the angle of drift before the apex depends on the shape of the corner and how hard you turn in. If the turn in is too fast then you lose too much speed to hold it all the way through the corner. You're right though, lift off is the best. Small angle, big skill, high speed. Just being on the edge of control is awesome. And it actually does help you go faster, unlike the big angle braking drift. Not saying that you can't go fast with b/drift, just that the big angle stuff scrubs too much speed.

Soyo, flylwsi is right, even if him and I dont agree on everything, you are completely off the mark! You are just stupid here!

If you are trying to flame everyone, maybe you could try out new subjects like FWD drift is useless because its only a show and it will never result in any condition in a gain of speed in a corner. (unlike the RWD and AWD)

Soyo means well... He has his opinions on FWD... I have mine of Domestics... To many people... even Japanese where this sport originated, domestics and FWD drifting is blasphemy!

If you get all techy here... FWD cannot really drift! But the SPORT... the STYLE of drift as I see it: I THINK THEY CAN....

Soyo means well...

So far as I can tell, Soyo rarely means anything.:disappoin Technically, in the most basic, and pure definition of drifting, FWD can. Once you expand it into different categories and styles, you find that a few techniques do not apply to FWD. And if you narrow it very far down, to drifting for show, it's not really matter of "can" as it is "how well" RWD certainly has advantages over FWD, there's no debating that, but just because of that, does not mean that FWD can not.
Also, generally speaking, a drift even with RWD is not going to gain any speed through a corner, since if you have slipped your rear wheels, you're wasting power on going in a direction, other than forward.

That's why FWD RALLY cars are preferred over RWD and AWD preferred over both....

what are you talking about?
rally cars were rwd until the awd cars came around.
the old escorts and lancias were rwd.
and dominated the rally circuilt.

where's your info from?

Ask anyone who RALLY's or knows about.... FWD is more stable than RWD in rally courses such as SNOW and GRAVEL, etc. AWD is the most preferred because it has the best of both RWD and FWD!

really?
so explain, again, why the most dominant cars in rallying in the 70's-80's were rwd, not fwd?
why is it that rwd cars are still faster in rallying? (i'm sure i could prove that if necessary, but you can find that type of information on an SCCA website)
i'm not looking for a fight here, but your info isn't cutting it here.

if fwd was so much better, don't you think that the european countries would have built more dedicated fwd rally cars?
instead of cars like the purpose-built lancias? rwd? what?
or the escorts that were rwd? (OLD stuff here)

i've found more than enough information to tell me the opposite about fwd being a better rally platform than rwd.

You'll recall, that FWD kicked RWD's ass when it came out. Much larger faster cars were falling to, tiny SAAB 96 sedans, and Minis - FWD offered a huge advantage.
It took high priced porsches to finally end the FWD conquering of the famed Monte Carlo rally (which had been beaten, by rather normal, non "sportscars" like the Citroen DS/ID, SAAB 96, and the Mini Cooper, which Porsche finally managed to dethrone) Imagine that! A tiny economy car giving a high priced sportster a run for it's money, because it had a good chasis, and front wheel drive.
Then of course AWD came along...

you're also comparing TINY fwd cars to porsche.
i'm not talking monte carlo.
i'm talking the world rally championship.
dominated by rwd cars like the escort and lancia. what are you guys missing here?
i'm sure that if you made a tiny, lightweight car such as the mini (but rwd) it would beat the mini in those rallies.

but that's besides the point

Actually, if the Mini had been RWD, all of the advantage it gained from being FWD would be lost. It took a high powered sports car to beat a motorized shopping cart.
Back then, SAAB, DKW, and Citroen, all early producers of FF cars, were racking up the victories with their cars, literally thousands of victories, against far larger, more powerful machines.
The RWD winners, when they won, were more often than not, also rear engined... this was why Europe became obsessed with putting all the works at one end.
However, that was a very long time ago (just like the days of the Lancia, and RWD Escort)
Today the dominant cars are all wheel drive, or front wheel drive.
But we're getting off topic now, if you'd like to continue a discussion about different drive formats and how they fit into racing, the other motorsports forum here is just begging for such a thread.

why is it I post off topic and I get banned for like what a week(don't know how long it was) but this whole thread can go into rallying and monte carlo and crap, that has nothing to do with the topic. I mean seriously, who cares what did what in the 70's? sure history is important, but you can't argue history, its facts not opinions, now I have never looked into it so I don't know the answer, but stop fighting about something so stupid.

the only reason I always say FWD can't drift is because all these homo honda guys see initial D or whatever else with people drifting, then they think pulling the e-brake around the corner is a drift. personally I think there should be a seperate term when talking about FWD 'drifting' and I don't mean like the negative names I've posted in so many other threads, but it should be acctually made into its own category, because obviously it is not the same. hopefully we can atleast admit that RWD and FWD sliding sideways are totally different, if not, your lieing to yourself. :) anyways, someone come up with a new term and we'll all just start using it and tell everyone else and eventually spread it across the world and we won't have these problems.

now about me not knowing anything or being wrong or having no technical knowledge... well I don't even have to answer to that. I never said I was some master mechanic or a pro drifter, but I know cars and I can drift, theres not really anywhere to do it around here though so its hard to practice. need to get some cones and find a big parking lot or something... anyways, don't try and doubt my knowledge or opinion, I usually don't yell out about things I don't have atleast a decent grasp on.

and I don't start flame wars, I just say you can't drift FWD, then everyone flames me. How am I flaming if I don't say anything about anyone? you all are the ones flaming, saying I don't know anything and such, but whatever, go ahead and ban me for a week again, its been done, its not like its gonna end my life, and honestly if I wasn't here, what would you talk about, I probably post in this forum and the rx-7 forum more than any of you.

so stop yelling at me for flaming when I didn't say one word about anyone, and I usually don't, well unless they honestly deserve it, I mean come on, they flame me and I get in trouble for it... GOOD SYSTEM!!!!

P.S. I still think FWD can't drift, and I don't care if you agree with me. Honestly if you didn't care what I thought you wouldn't get so mad at me... so obviously you all love me and never want to lose me! :) its ok you can admit it hehe

that's why it's your thought.
we can PROVE other wise...

so if you want to sit back and say it can't, and we can prove that it can, that makes you ignorant...
i love how that works...

2stroke, you've got no argument from me on this one...

Thank-you, 2stroke.... FWD is better in rally!

Soyo, I think that term is powerdrift, wich is the most important difference between RWD and FWD.
And if this term doesnt exist, I think it describe the difference well.

Ok. One more off topic post, I swear.

The Lancia Fulvia was front wheel drive. The current Citroen WRC car is front wheel drive. Look out people, there may be drifting.

Yoyo, you had to go and make yourself bigger banbait. I no longer have any simpathy for you. You deserve all the flames that hell can provide.

BANCAKES!!!

I HATE using the ebrake to drift. I have a 97 Honda Accord that i use to drift. I don't know what the lingo is you guys use. maybe you could explain? But i can describe what i do.

the hardest part of a drift for me, is losing traction, because my car is just about all stock. (the best mod is the driver, i test my skills all the time). i drop down into 2nd gear going into a turn and cut the wheel hard into the turn and go almost WOT. in doing that, the car will lurch into a turn and cause the rear to continue going straight, while the front starts to turn. this causes the "drift effect" of the the rear losing control. at WOT the front tires start to spin causing less friction holding the car to the road (rolling friction, grip driving, has more friction than kinetic friction, or drifting, loss of traction, when you slide a block across a floor which causes the car to slide).

after i lose traction, i do something like "power sliding" that you guys talk about, but with the front wheel spinning. this pulls, instead of pushes the car through the turn. once i've reached past the apex, i counter steer and let off the gas a little which brings the traction back.

when i'm going through the turn, a certain amount of steering back and fourth depending on how the car is sliding will correct the slide and make it more fluid. i also use the break when i need more over steer bringing the weight further off the back. adjusting the throttle a little will also correct the friction on the front tires to make the drift more fluid.

understand what i'm talking about? lol. one thing though, i don't do this as fast as the guy that goes 40-60, cuz when i go over a certain speed i get that feeling i'm sure you've all had, when you aren't drifting and on the edge of plastering your face on the pavement with your car in the ditch. any suggestions for modding? i'll need new shocks etc in 4 months, and a new clutch. preferably anyone with experience with accords and parts for them, parts to stay away from would be even more beneficial. for now, the engine is fine for what it does, it gets the car to drift, good fuel economy, and can definatly pull its own.

here's a picture i drew up in photoshop (it also helps people like soyo to understand FWD drifting):
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/153227drift_copy-med.jpg
As you can see, the drifting of FWD and RWD is completely different, yet very similar. Yellow wheels mean loss of traction. red arrows are the "force diagram" for the front wheels, the one poiting more to the right is the force of momentum, the one to the left is the force of the wheels pulling the car. same for the blue, but those are the rear tires. the green arrows is the totaly direction of the force on the car (if you've taken physics, you see all the arrows are components of vetors and the green arrow is the vector when the components are added==> all newtonian physics).

1) you can see what i do going into turn, 2) i start spinning the front wheels and the traction on the rear starts to slip in the extreme oversteer, 3) using the techniques i told you about, i continue in the drift, and 4) i counter steer, gain traction and end the drift.

for you RWD guys, the rear tires spin and cause the rear to slide through the turn while counter steering. at least thats my simple understanding of it.

GOD DAMN, that was the longest shit i've EVER typed. any comments and such would be much appreciated. too much stuff to go uncommented!

mike

actually, the current citroen wrc car is converted to awd. all wrc cars are.

considering the pricing for rwd cars, and the abundance of fwd cars, it only makes sense that fwd cars are "dominating" non-awd rally classes.

but that's besides the point.

sietekk:
you said you hate using the e brake?
why?
rwd drifters do it all the time?
why is it a cop out for fwd cars?

Yeah all WRC cars are AWD... but I think in the WRC Junior Leauge they have some FWD's.... I think.

hopefully we can atleast admit that RWD and FWD sliding sideways are totally different, if not, your lieing to yourself.
Thank for such an informative and thoughtfully insightful post, Soyo. :screwy:
Sliding sideways is sliding sideways. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that. :2cents:

sietekk, I have two advice for you.

1. if you dont want to use the handbrake, accelerate, turn the wrong way, lift the accelerator, then turn the right way and it should drift. Thats the best way to benefit from your soft suspesion

2. More speed = more drift

its not that the ebrake is a cop out, its too common and easy to do. i like to test myself, and i've already experimented with the ebrake and don't like it. i don't like the feel of it, and it causes my car to slow down too much. it just seems to easy and juvenile to do, so the next step isn't using it. it has its uses, but beyond correctional stuff, it isn't for me.

sietekk, I have two advice for you.

1. if you dont want to use the handbrake, accelerate, turn the wrong way, lift the accelerator, then turn the right way and it should drift. Thats the best way to benefit from your soft suspesion

2. More speed = more drift

I beleive the tech-term is POWER-OVER! :smile:

...and, sietekk: using the e-brake is not a cop-out! You can use the
e-brake to control the angle of the drift! A very valuable tool....

notice I said you can slide both FWD and RWD cars, I just think they should have seperate terms because of the differences between the two. honestly they are not the same, I'll argue that all day. obviously you can lose traction with the rear wheels of a FWD car by turning fast enough, but its just not the same. I have done it in both FWD and RWD cars and its a TOTALLY different feel/movement/whatever so I think it should be termed differently. maybe call it skid/skiding instead of drifting, just so make notice that it isn't the same. because no 2stroke sliding sideways is not sliding sideways... but I'm not even getting into this anymore... so from now on, I'm calling it 'skiding' for FWD and 'drifting' for RWD. have a nice day :)

I beleive the tech-term is POWER-OVER! :smile:

Not with FWD. You can only "power over" to drift with a RWD car.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/130540FFFR-med.JPG

Paint is too much fun. :smile:

Look that FF DRIFTED right off the road! That FR could sure use some ackerman.

and now, an impression. GUESS WHO I AM! WIN TEH PRIZE!

UH OH TEH SEVENTIES R STUPID. U GIZE SUX. I DRIFT ALL DAY LONG... NOT RICER LOL!!! But I do it in the mountains.... U TYPE 2 MUCH! LOL! NOBODY DRIFTED UNTIL THE JAPANESE INVENTED IT IN 1986.... LOL! I AM NOT AGROGANT OR IGNORGANT! LOL! CALM DOWN, I WUZ JUST KIDDING IN ALL MY OTHER POSTS BECAUSE TEY R DUM.... LOL! FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CAN'T BE SIEDWAYS CUZ U R DUM.... I DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE RIGHT MY OPOINON IS MY OPONION AND HONDAS=GAYZORZ!

I'd just like to apologize in advance for this awful, awful post.

the FWD car pitched it too late!!! hahahahah --- understeer sucks!

good paint job though!

I beleive the tech-term is POWER-OVER! :smile:

...and, sietekk: using the e-brake is not a cop-out! You can use the
e-brake to control the angle of the drift! A very valuable tool....


Yeah we should write the FWD DRIFT, RWD DRIFT, AWD DRIFT in the encyclopedia of drifting... yay!

that will set them straight! :grinno:

nice paint job bunta, and I want a prize... maybe its mr. "accelerating then turning the wrong way, letting off the gas and turning in = tech term power-over"... I'm still trying to figure out where the power is if you let off the gas when you turn in :)

We can see from this diagram, the EXTREME oversteer created using the sietekk technique. When traction catches in the rear, it sends the ass end of the car ROLLING ALONG WILDLY IN COMPLETE CONTROL. Meanwhile, the front tires are smoking and giving the wonton driver the sense that he's gangsta. AND AS IF BY MAGIC, ALL FOUR TIRES ARE SPINNING WHEN THE CAR HITS THE APEX. As we also see, the car is completely parrallel with the road. This results in the most CRAPTACULAR drifting YOU'VE ever seen. Yes, FR drifting is truly exactly like FF drifting, yet completely different.

Sietekk, have you lost your mind???

You make Soyo look like a genius! :)

I am a genius, thanks for pointing that out! saves me some time! :)