Grip vs. Drift

Hey guys....
You may see me threading back in forth about GRIP and DRIFT and talking about my old 240 :crying: ... well, now I got a Z car and I'm in a new transition! There are no GRIP forums so here I am hanging out with you guys... I occasionally still hang out in the 240 forum still... I used to drift but with this new car it's really hard... plus it's AT! But I got loads of power and grippy suspension!!!
But I started wondering... which is better? Grip or Drift? Which would really get you around quicker? What do you think of grip drivers? Is drift all show?? Just thought I'd stir things up. :iceslolan

Thanks-guys.....

drifting is not done to be fast.
it's done as an "art" per se.

the fastest way around a track is grip. no question.

don't think that grip drivers don't slide their cars around some corners, however.

turn 9 at mid-ohio is a common place to see drivers sliding the back of the car slightly to get around the corner.

drift is, by nature, all show.
it's not timed, it's scored by judges. of course it's show.

and there's nothing wrong with that.

But don't some touge racers use drift around sharp-corners? It's used to get around the corner quicker than grip! I don't think drift was meant just for show when it first was discovered and used i.e. drift-king using drift to get around corners quicker during racing....

CERTAIN corners you can get by faster ... lets say... a 180? or a sharp decreasing radius corner... you basically drift to ROTATE the car. But over all... ITS SLOW.

Everything else thats not drift is grip... so it just depends what sport your into.

if your not into drifting, your gripping... F1, Le Mans... whatever.

^ what he said ^

But isn't drift actually faster cus you're not really braking? Or is it like braking? I dunno... when I used to drift I was not doing it to be fast... but those guys in D1 can drift at speeds like at 100mph @ a corner.... I can't do that with grip!

drifting, as a motorsport, it's all about art. it's not about getting around a track quick.

it's been gone over tons of times.

sliding a corner, like a rally car, or even touring cars, is quick if you're not playing around and hangin the ass out there.

meaning that, even in cars with tons of mechanical grip, you're going to get a slight bit of slide in some corners, and this slide can be, and is, quicker than not sliding in some cases.

corner 9 at mid ohio is one of these corners. pretty much everyone slides slightly on that corner. that's just it's nature.

drifting as seen in videos is not a quicker route around a track.

But isn't drift actually faster cus you're not really braking? Or is it like braking? I dunno... when I used to drift I was not doing it to be fast... but those guys in D1 can drift at speeds like at 100mph @ a corner.... I can't do that with grip!

D1 drifters 100mph is their ENTRY SPEED.... by the time they exit they're prolly going 60mph...

use your imagination, your wheels/tires are designed to go forward, not sideways... if you go sideways your tires start to create more traction because it cannot rotate as efficiently if it was going forward, hence it will slow you down.

I recommend for you guys to REALLY pick-up a good racing/physics book and read that stuff before you even go further with all this drifting stuff.

i think we've got it pretty much covered, kenji...

D1 drifters 100mph is their ENTRY SPEED.... by the time they exit they're prolly going 60mph...

This is the single best example of why drifting is slow around a race track. The key to quick lap times in most cases is based much more on corner exit speed than corner entry speed. If you're 10 MPH faster for 100 yds entering a corner (figure a max difference of about 0.2 sec) but lose 5 MPH exiting the corner for the following 1/4 mile long straight (this is usually at least 0.5 sec), then you are 0.3 sec slower for that section. Also, if you're running for more than a couple of laps, drifting is much harder on the tires, and will eventually further slow the car mid-corner.

As mentioned, the only place where "drifting" is faster on a paved surface is very tight hairpin corners (think Tarmac Rally e-brake turn) with very little straight afterwards. There are very few road course corners in this situation anywhere in the world (The corner formerly known as the Loewe's Hairpin at Monaco is the only one that pops into mind, and F1 cars understeer way too much at these speeds to drift well), ant to set a car up to do this usually compromises handling elsewhere on the track, resulting in slower lap times.

Drifting IS actualy faster, as long as you can keep a constant speed in the drift. It allows you to put the nose in the right direction faster, so you can slow down in the direction your going and accelerate in the direction you want to go. An other way to see it is that the vector of acceleration of the rear wheels is pointing in the wrong direction,(especialy with RWD)
because you want the machine to turn, not to keep going straight

When taking a fast turn on a dry surface, giving the car a few degree more than the tangent of the circle for that position will allow you to do as written above. On wet surfaces, the gain is even more evident. The reasons are that the tires dont get extremely hot, its easier to control and the car will be more likely to understeer if not drifting. Just watch ice racing competitions(like trophe Andros), it will be evident. WRC also show that drifting is faster. They immediatly point the car in the direction of the end of the corner.

The reason why this technique isnt use in formula one or other dry circuit race is because it would destroy the tires and the speed is so high that the degree of drift would be very small anyway. But if you watch movies from Gilles Villeneuve racing his F1 on wet surface, you will see he actualy drift!!

nononono, you are all wrong, drifting allow you to have a HIGHER corner exit speed, because you start accelerating EARLIER and the angle between the vectors of acceleration and direction(from the front wheel, wich makes the car turn) is SMALLER so the is LESS opposition between these two forces.

what are you smoking?
you're a fwd driver, what do you know about rwd corner exit speed?

drifting around a corner is not quicker. end of story.
time it takes for you to slide the entire corner vs. time for me to grip the ENTIRE corner, no contest.

also, you're not moving faster if your wheels are spinning, are you?
you're only moving as fast as the momentum is carrying you.
grip is quicker...

one more thing:
why would pro racers be adding wings and downforce to aid in cornering if it's quicker to drift around a corner?
think about that

******you're a fwd driver, what do you know about rwd corner exit speed?
***
Former AWD driver
Since both have rear wheel acceleration, their comportement is more similar than between FWD and RWD. And anyway, I had the chance to drive go-karts and few RWD to confirm this idea(but it wasnt even necessery to drive RWDs because this is only a matter of physic).


****************why would pro racers be adding wings and downforce to aid in cornering if it's quicker to drift around a corner?
think about that*****************

Downforce increase the pressure on the car, wich increase the friction between the aspalt and wheels, so your grip increase. Now to optimise that grip you have to drift.

how would drifting optimize grip?
you make no sense at all.

seriously.
grip is there to push the tires into the pavement, not cause them to spin...
your experience isn't leaving you with any sort of common sense here.

ask a pro racer in a big series what a major issue is in getting around a corner quickly.
they'll tell you that they don't want wheelspin.
drifting is: wheelspin.

another thing:
if drifting is sooo much quicker around a corner, why are professional race drivers not drifting around corners?
go to a race, say, the Speed GT or Touring car series, or the mazda star series, or ALMS, or any other series, really, and take a look at the cars in the corners.
no wheelspin, no drift.
at the very least, you'd hear wheelspin, and trust me, at a track, you can.

i've been to mid-ohio enough to prove you wrong.

**how would drifting optimize grip?
you make no sense at all.***

I told you, it will optimise the use of grip by reducing the opposition of the lateral forces that cause the car to change direction and the acceleration that tend to make the car go foward. in other word, having grip doesnt matter if you dont use it properly. I tough you would understand it the first time. But if you dont, wich is possible, ill draw it for you.

****drifting is: wheelspin****
Wrong, drifting is simply when tires dont go in the direction they are pointed. But we refer to drift as oversteer drifting most of the time. Wheelspin is a powerslide.


*************if drifting is sooo much quicker around a corner, why are professional race drivers not drifting around corners?
go to a race, say, the Speed GT or Touring car series, or the mazda star series, or ALMS, or any other series, really, and take a look at the cars in the corners.
*************
because the angle between the lateral vector(wich make the car change direction) and the acceleration vector (wich push the car foward) is not high enough to justify drifts that would heat the tires and be dangerous.

Anything else you don’t understand?

so, in major racing series', you're saying that drifting isn't optimal?
so in RACING, grip racing, it's not optimal.
it's optimal where?
in rally racing on super tight corners, and that's about it.

so on any major road racing course in the world, drifting isn't optimized, b/c it's not quicker around the corner.

i think that makes my point pretty clear.

one more thing:
the tires aren't going in the direction as the car, they're sliding.
but they're still spinning.
thus, drifting requires wheelspin.

anything else YOU don't understand?

one more thing:
why would pro racers be adding wings and downforce to aid in cornering if it's quicker to drift around a corner?
think about that


Well.... that would be 'cus it's not a drift event... duh!

DRIFTING on the TOUGE races is quick....

yeah! you should show that movie to flywsi

and flywsi, the initial question: " was Grip or Drift? Which would really get you around quicker?"
and not if its optimal in racing CONSIDERING the damages to the mecanics, tires, etc...

one more thing:
the tires aren't going in the direction as the car, they're sliding.
but they're still spinning.
thus, drifting requires wheelspin

if spinning doesnt mean that they are turning faster than the vector of the car, then I guess I was wrong on that word.

I have actually seen cars go pretty quickly on the downhill using drift... I guess it matters which kinda track you are on... 'cus drifting down the 1/4 mile won't get you no high 10's... LoL

honestly, you guys are mincing the issue at hand.

the question doesn't state togue, does it?

in the togue, it's profitable to "drift" or slide a corner, as they are quite tight, not unlike rallying.

in my examples, for EVERY major racing organization that races on a road race course, such as mid-ohio, drifting a corner isn't quicker.
end of story.


OPTIMAL IN RACING?
quicker around a corner is optimal, no?

THE ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS: WHICH IS QUICKER? DRIFT OR GRIP!?! The type of track was never mentioned... I agree it doesn't work on any track. This thread was very insightful!

*****in my examples, for EVERY major racing organization that races on a road race course, such as mid-ohio, drifting a corner isn't quicker.****

When the website www.turnfast.com will be up again, ill show you what racing drivers wrote about drifting. But for now, lets just try to find someone with a PhD in physics(there must be a few, after all 20% of the members make more than 150 000$) to explain you thats its quicker because now our conversation is becoming to sound like yes it is no its not with the same arguments again and again.

When people say that drift is slow. what kind of drift are they talking about? Cuz there's a racing drift, supposedly, and a show drift. This is what ive heard, im not saying this is truth at all.

What i think is that drifting in a race situatrion shud only be used when slowing down as per normal grip driving wouldnt be advantageous

how would drifting be more advantageous than regular braking to slow a car?

to clarify what everyone else is saying, 323 and 1via...
drifting on a road course, such as mid-ohio, isn't going to get you anywhere faster.
on twisty, mountain style roads, you can keep your car moving faster if you "drift" a corner.
not the case on a road course with hairpins, however, which baffles me, honestly.
b/c if it's quicker, you'd see cars drifting hairpins at f1 races...but you don't...

it's a matter of opinion, but on a timed road course, it's not quicker to drift.

if you're talking a twisty road with areas where a mild/race drift/slide is in order, that'll happen...
it comes down to the driver more than the type of driving, to choose when it's better to let the car slide slightly, as opposed to keeping the tires stuck.

OH MY GOD! Just seeing you guys going back and forth makes me crazy!

Some of the guys here seem to be rewriting the physics or race car driving... i guess we should all drive sideways since its faster!

Drift CAN be fast IN CERTAIN types of Conditions... ie. certain types of corners and situations. BUT OVERALL it's the slow way around a corner...

WHY? What happens when you drift? You loose traction... when you loose traction you loose TIME. I don't care if you saw a car drifting around the touge and its FAST... its the CLOCK that proves you're faster.

Drifting as i mentioned can be faster since it can be used to rotate your car and give you the proper angle you need to exit, but the benefits can be minimal if the situation does not require it.

Why would people spend all the money on getting grippier tires if they want to just slide around every corner?

How many of you guys actually race? I mean go to a TIMED race event. Try it and test your theory of drifting as always being fast. You will see who is right and wrong.

I recommend EVERYONE to read this link:
http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/

...When taking a fast turn on a dry surface, giving the car a few degree more than the tangent of the circle for that position will allow you to do as written above. On wet surfaces, the gain is even more evident. The reasons are that the tires dont get extremely hot, its easier to control and the car will be more likely to understeer if not drifting. Just watch ice racing competitions(like trophe Andros), it will be evident. WRC also show that drifting is faster. They immediatly point the car in the direction of the end of the corner.

What you are describing here is mild oversteer, not drifting. A few degrees of slip angle is a good thing, but there comes a point where increased slip angle of the tires reduces the maximum grip of the tire. This is a function of the interactions between the tire itself and the pavement. A tire has an ideal working range that it is designed to be used in. Every track tire I have dealt with (virtually every DOT track tire that has been available in the last 10 years, plus several racing slicks), sliding the tires excessively (both front and rear) can overheat the tires and reduce overall grip. Having 7 3-ring binders full of tire temperature data and corresponding lip times, I would say that when the tires get overheated, the lap times get slower. I can tell if a driver has been sliding (drifting) the car by looking at the tire temps, and we're only talking about mild oversteer, not "drifting", and the lap times are almost always slower when the car is sliding. It is possible to overheat tires in the rain if the car is slid too much, or worse, the tires can chunk, and suddenly you have less capability of moving water out of the way.

The reason why this technique isnt use in formula one or other dry circuit race is because it would destroy the tires and the speed is so high that the degree of drift would be very small anyway. But if you watch movies from Gilles Villeneuve racing his F1 on wet surface, you will see he actualy drift!!

The reason Gilles Villenuve, and most F1 drivers until about 1980 drifted is because of tire technology and areodynamics. The improvements in tire technology have ended up reducing the allowable slip angle, and the aerodynamics of a car work much better if the car is travelling within about 5 degrees of the direction it is pointed.

A car will be able to put the power to the ground best if the thrust angle is the same as the direction the car is travelling. The loss of efficiency is proportional to the cosine of the absolute value of the angle between the thrust angle of the vehicle and the direction the vehicle is travelling. At 10 deg off, the loss is only about 2%. At 20 deg, the loss is about 6%, and at 30 deg, the loss is 14%, and the numbers only get bigger from there. The power is being used to turn the car sideways, not accelerate forwards.

FWIW, I don't have a PhD in physics, just a BS in mathematics and have been working on race cars at various levels for about 10 years. I have driven FWD, RWD, and AWD on the track, and all 3 are distinctly different. The interactons between tire and pavement have only really been able to be understood in the last 3-5 years, and there is a lot that is still not yet known. As Flywsi points out, if drifting was faster, everyone in every competitive pavement based racing series would be doing it, from F1 to NASCAR to Spec Miatas and everything in between.

what you are saying is brillant

and what he said is different than what i said b/c of?
he used slip angles and specific percentages, so he's right and what i said was incorrect?
makes sense...

Well... I think GRIP is way faster... but I also think there are certain corners where DRIFT can be advantageously quicker than GRIP also...

whew! i guess we all agree with each other all of a sudden... hahaha

exactly.
like kfoote, myself, and jdmkenji mentioned, grip is the quickest way around a corner.

grip includes these minor slides, up to 5 degrees, like kfoote mentioned, which are not considered drifting.

they are sliding, yes, but they're not drifts, per se.

uh... I never disagreed though... I was just asking! LoL! Thanks, guys!

and what he said is different than what i said b/c of?
he used slip angles and specific percentages, so he's right and what i said was incorrect?
makes sense...

FWIW, my (rather lengthy) post was basically a technical version of the point Flywsi and jdmkenji was trying to get across. The conclusion that should be drawn from this as pertains to the original topic is that grip is faster than "drifting" in the vast majority of circumstances.

The majority of circumstances... not all. Gotcha! Thank-you!

im surprise you dont consider mild oversteer as drifting, because for me when the direction of the tires isnt the same as their vector its sliding...

and mild oversteer and some heavy drift seem relative...

The reason I don't consider mild oversteer a drift is that the same degree of mild understeer is common in most cars. A 5 degree angle off thrust angle has very little loss of traction, and many cars will understeer 5 degrees in normal circumstances. I really consider "drifting" to be where a car oversteers significantly more than it is possible (in normal circumstances) to understeer in mid-corner.

Drifting for the purposes of speed is understeer. Understeer is usually something to be fought against in most cars/corners. If you can use it to your advantage, instead of always fighting it and occaisonally overcompensating, corner exit will start coming a lot easier to you. Drifting for speed is saying that when the apex is passed, you are no longer using the wheel to guide the car, you are accelerating down the next straight already.

The steering wheel isn't to turn the car around a corner, it's to present the car to the corner. Pull the wheel with your fingers, don't push it around with your fists.

There are very few corners with lines that allow you to drift and come out faster than someone who isn't drifting. In 99.9% of situations grip driving is faster, period. There's a reason you don't see F1 cars and such sliding all over the place (besides off the track :) ).

I think we cleared that-up, thank-you!

Drifting for the purposes of speed is understeer.

Understeer is when the front tires have a larger radius through the corner than the rear tires. Oversteer is where the front tires have a smaller radius through the corner than the rear tires. Drifting is exaggerated oversteer.

Understeer is usually something to be fought against in most cars/corners. If you can use it to your advantage, instead of always fighting it and occaisonally overcompensating, corner exit will start coming a lot easier to you.

To an extent, yes. In many cars, having a slight understeer is the fastest setup for a car around a road course. In auto-x, usually slight to moderate oversteer is faster. The degree to which either of these are true will vary a lot depending on the type of car, track, and driver.

Drifting for speed is saying that when the apex is passed, you are no longer using the wheel to guide the car, you are accelerating down the next straight already.

In most road course corners, if you're not at full throttle well before the apex, you're not going fast enough. You are still using the steering wheel post-apex to guide the car, but should be straightening it out. If you have the wheel pointed straight ahead at the apex, you have overslowed the car for the corner, gotten on the throttle too late, and could have carried a lot more speed into and through the corner.

The steering wheel isn't to turn the car around a corner, it's to present the car to the corner. Pull the wheel with your fingers, don't push it around with your fists.

Again, this is a bit misleading. The initial turn in does have the purpose of presenting the car to the corner, and you want to be as light as you can with steering inputs (no "death grip" on the steering wheel). Once you are back into the throttle, the steering wheel is used to keep the car turning as much as possible while minimizing front tire scrub. There is still some degree of directional control that can be used without turning too much to scrub off speed with the front tires. This is again proportional to the cosine of the angle between the front tires and the thrust axis. As long as this angle is less than about 5 degrees, there is virtually no loss of speed due to front tire scrub.

I think that this topic has been covered to death. And it's boiled down to this conclusion. Unless you drive one of these...

http://www.campbellphoto.com/1138JC.jpg

one of these...

http://www.auto-sprint.com/asturias/images/pierofor.jpg

or actually compete in drift/touge events, drifting is indeed slower.

Discussion over.