i do not know what to do...

heres my situation:
im 17, and i would like to get a sporty car that i can have fun with. My budget will prolly b around the 5000-6000 range. For that amount of money what would be a good drift / fun car to buy? I was looking at the various old Porsche 944's, FC RX7's, Miata, mayb even a 240sx (but i prolly woudnt get one). any sugestions as to what car i should try and get?

6K can get you a very nice S14 model 240SX (not nearly as common as the S13's). However, that's also an amount of money that can get you into an Alfa Romeo Quadrfoglio roadster (beautiful Pininfarina styling coupled with the classic Alfa twin cam four), a V6 Pontiac Fiero, an N/A Z32 Nissan 300ZX, an MGB GT (shameless plug for my ride), any number of Datsun Z's or 510's, the aforementioned Porsches, Fox-body 5.0L Mustangs and early SN95 Mustangs, Lancia Scorpions, MkIII turbo Supras...

It's a long list, and there's some really cool stuff on it.

Yeah... but he want's a DRIFT car, right? With $6 grand you can get into an FC or S13 or (maybe) an S14! Personlly I would go with S13 240sx because I used to own one... I bought a 300ZX for $7,500 (price reduction!) but those do not slide so easy! Get a 240sx coupe kid! You'll love it!

Some FC's got the turbo though! 510's are fun... but can they drift? that would be kinda old-school cool! Hmmmmmmmmm (now I'm thinkin' of gettin' one!).

Hmm, american cars really arnt my thing... i used to want a 240sx, but i dunno its just not as appealing to me any more. Ive always been a fan of the FC, but if its hard to learn how to drift it then i might stay away from it. Also this would end up bein the first car i buy myslef, and also the first car i have the oppurtunity to work on. I love japonese cars, but the idea of having a porsche is really getting to me, if the 944 makes for a good drift car then i would reallly be leaning towards that. My only concern with that is how they are all old, and for a while i dont know how much work i will be able 2 do myslef (if maintanece is not that much of an issue for this car, then this wont be a problem). Ive also heard that miata's are ok for drifting (there just not very popular for it), and they are newer so its possible that maintence would be less. i would greatly apprieaciate any comments/opinions.

240's lack power big time, with 6k get a turbo FC and rebuild the engine as soon as you can afford it, cuz they tend to have trouble over 100k in most cases, I don't know just my thoughts, or I guess you could get an S13 240sx(not pignose cuz they only have a single overhead cam) and either rebuild and turbo the KA24DE(my suggestion) or swap in a SR20DET(a little more played out but a good engine none the less) those would be the two options at the top of MY list, just thought I'd share 'em with you... porsche would be cool but I bet the will cost a lot to fix and get parts for, *shrug* who knows but fill us in on what you get, oh and give us pics too :)

You muts take insurance into acount. I dont know what its like for like a 240SX, but a young male in a sports car is alought of $. A MKII Supra like mine has a great insureance price considering its a sports car. The reason it has a great rate, is because it isnt that old to scare insurance people off, and it isnt all that fast compared to even regular cars today. But it has a LSD stock (most cars had them) and it is not much heavier than a S13 when it has a 2.8L I6!!! Then you can bolt 7MGE heads right onto it, they use the same block, the only differance would be the stroke (torque) but it is about 400ILBS lighter than MKIIIs and MK4s.
Just go with what you can afford, but will be a good car all around, for economy and performance when you need it.

S14's have very forgettable styling.

Buy the nicest '91 BMW 325is you can find.

umm...... how do I get a cool AVATAR like you guys-?

screw a supra, those things are so heavy, don't try to tell me its as light as an S13 cuz its like 500 pounds heavier, maybe more, where do you get your info? and if you are worried about insurance get a non-turbo and turbo it, then you will be paying for a non-turbo car on insurance and it will be cheap, but no sports car is gonna be very cheap on insurance, so you really can't say get the one with the best insurance, they all suck in that category... anyways a non-turbo S13 240sx or non-turbo FC RX-7 will be between $90-$100 a month for liability(mine is $94 a month), probably double that for full coverage.

honestly I say get a miata, one with a hard convertable top(I think they have those) they are nice cars, pretty good for drifting and they will be a little easier on insurance probably and have pretty good potential. but in the end its all up to what you like the best, don't let someone else choose for you.

i was just wondering what exactly makes the FC a bad car for beginers? is it really that hard to slide? Also ive read that people rebuild their engines in their FC's and FD's, how much does this cost and where can you get it done? Also about the 240sx, what has to be done (if any thing) to take the KA24DE and put a turbo in it? If i got a 240, id rather hav a KA24DET then an SR20DET....

for the KA you need to rebuild and make it more low compression, which your probably looking between $1,700-$2,200 for parts and labor, to the best of my knowledge anyway.

on the other hand I think rx-7's are great beginner cars, although I'd say every kid should own a slow automatic car before anything else, just to learn how to drive, thats just my opinion though

MKIISupra Is onto a good thing with the MK2 supra.
They ARE about the same weight as an S13, you can swap in a 5MGE or 7MGE or even a 7MGTE for decent beginners power, not to mention that most have a factory LSD (manuals anyway) and if you get a decent one they have a lot of nice stuff (power windows, mirrors, steering, air con etc).
My only major qualm is that they are fairly vague in terms of steering feel, but nevertheless as long as the shocks, springs, bushes, and LSD are in decent condition they're a great handling,very chuckable, very predictable thing to drive.
The 5M-E SOHC motor is gutless though, so grab a 7MGE from a MK3 supra or cressida.

FC for life:D

Good car but stay away from the turbos unless you have more money. The NA cars are very reliable.

If you get anyother car i would sugest that you upgrade the oil pump. I have seen a few cars kill engines during extended drift setions from oil starvation. And it will also prevent other wear int the engine.

Yes, the MKII supra is a little tough on handling, because it has the strut infront and multi link in the rear, so that results in pretty tough handling, but lowing springs can fix that a little. I am sorry I didnt understand what you 7th skyline. If you meant to say what I think you did, the 5M-E I believe only in the 1982 celica supras, then all of the MKIs before it. But from 1982 and beyon they got the 5MGE. The 5MGE has DOHCs, but still only 2 valves per cylinder. I believe that in 1983 it made around like 140HP, 1984s and 1985s make 161HP. The 5MGE is same basic engine as the 7MGE. So you can put 7MGE or 7MGTE heads on it without any fabrication. But then you have to change the ECU. Now here are the specifications on 3 cars, a 1983 Toyota MKII Supra, 1989 Nissan 240SX, and a 1989 Mazda RX-7 turbo. Look at the weights, and see which is lightest. also, the HP that they put up is incorect that is a 1983 and it makes like 140HP not even 85s made 170HP.

RX-7 FC: http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=9284

240SX S13: http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=26796

Celica supra MKII: http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=37312

Keep in mind that the Supra is pretty fancy (even MKIIs) so they have alought of stuff in them that you can take out to weight reduce. Also Soyo the reason I know this is because I own a 1985 Toyota Supra MKII. I have pics of it if you would like to see them, just IM me at IATEPCT. But for the main subject, zerogt86 any of these cars and many more would work for what you are talking about.

another car i was looking at was the SW20, although around here i can only find the non turbo version. Would i have to rebuild the NA motor to turbo it (well, if i got a car with 120k++ miles i might aswell rebuild it anyway...)? From what i can tell the MR layout would be good for drifting. btw thanks for all the info so far!

Well, the turbo and non turbo ones use differant engines. The N/A uses a 2.2L vs the 2.0L turbocharged 3SGTE. If you got an N/A one, keep it N/A. Dont forget about the 1st generation MR2. the superchaged models were called AW11s. They used supercharged 4AGEs called the 4AGZE. I wouldent suggest the superchaged model, go for the N/A one and pay less for it but tune it heavily. As far as I can tell some of the N/A ones got a 4AGE. you could put Toda racing parts on it. You could get a ton of HP, I would suggest it be carbed.

for the KA you need to rebuild and make it more low compression, which your probably looking between $1,700-$2,200 for parts and labor, to the best of my knowledge anyway.

on the other hand I think rx-7's are great beginner cars, although I'd say every kid should own a slow automatic car before anything else, just to learn how to drive, thats just my opinion though

well right now im drivin my families 95 accord auto, and thats a slow car to learn how to drive on. i've been ok with it, but auto just seems so damn boring!

also, you wouldnt know how much it costs for a new/rebuild of rotaries for the FC or FD wouldya?

See thats the problem right there. It will obviously be pretty expensive to have it rebuilt, but it is difficult to find someone ot do it. You are probably going to have to ship the car $$$. Thats why I would stay away from a rotary. They are expensive. But if it is what you really want, then go for it. I would look for a 1st gen RX7 with a 12A. It will be less expensive lighter and the carburetion will make it so much easier and basic that you will be able to do alought of the work. Now where do you live, I will look for a place for rebuilding and porting, you auda get a little bridge port while your at it :wave:.

Another questions, would an AW11 w/ a 4AGE be very similliar to a trueno? I mean same engine, probably similliar weight, but heavier in the back. Turbo or no turbo (or SC, or even carb, damn this engine can do anything!) that kind of AW11 would probably be alot of fun drive!

I don't buy that carfolio site, you say the hp is off, and both the rx-7 and 240sx weight is off, the rx-7 is 2800 even, the 240 is 2699-coupe and 2730-hatch.. and the fact that it says kerb wieght and it should be curb weight doesn't help me believe it eithe...also the 91-94 240sx had a DOHC engine and is a better option than the 89-90 versions, also the 90-92 rx-7 is a better choice than the 89, why pick years of the 2 opposing cars that are below the best years of that generation? the the newer 240s had 15 more horsepower and 8 more torque

also pure overall weight is not the main aspect of drifting, find me a diagram of the weight ratio for the celica supra and compare it to the weight ratios of the rx-7 and 240sx, if it matches them I will retract my statement but I doubt it does

the 95+ 240's have a 54/46 front/rear weight ratio which is amazing for drifting(I didn't find the S13 ratio but I figured this would be almost exactly the same even though this model is about 80lbs heavier)

the FC rx-7 has 50.8/49.2 front/rear weight ratio which is about as close to perfect as it gets, so thats about all I'm saying about that

also the 240 has independent rear suspension while the rx-7 has front and rear independent suspension

not to mention that the 240 comes with an LSD and some rx-7's also have an LSD

feel free to show me that your car matches up with these cars stock for stock and I'll be glad to say I was wrong

MKII Supra isnt nearly as good on the weight diss, it has 53 up front and 47 rear. But that isnt bad considdering its got a big iron block 2.8L I6 up front. The only thing that I could say the MKII Supra can live up to here, is the stock power, and potential. The driveline and transmission in the car can take plenty of power, I know that the W58 trans in it can take 300HP+. Plus the 1985s had a 4.30 rear diff! Plus the MKII beats them all out in reliablility. On this review site, it beat out an Audi, 300ZX, Jaguar, Porsche 944, BMW. But this is in total points, like if you add them all up, and it was all cars of the same year. There is really nother really else to be said about it. It sounds like he likes the AW11s, MR does have a difficult drift though. Because of the weight torwards the rear, in a drift it can be felt, especialy as the turns get sharper and quicker.

actually, i like the 4AGE more than the aw11, but why is MR so hard to drift, i thought the MR only added more oversteer?

Do 240sx's have Macpherson struts? I know FC's did.

By the way Soyo, all cars have independant front suspension. You'd have to go back about a century to find one that didn't.

MR's are tricky because they don't dive like FR's do. You need some front end weight transfer to get grip to the front tires. They will spin in certain situations, but more often they will understeer if driven incorrectly, because the front (steering) tires don't get enough purchase on the road surface. My two choices for sports car (that I can afford) are the Mk1 MR2 and an FC. They are both so damn interesting.

On 4A-G.net, there's a great article in the tech section about MR2 suspension tuning. It is one of the coolest things I've ever read on the net.

Yes, Bunta brings up a good point. All of the RX7s are interesting for this reason, because the rotary engine is so small, they can mount it further back in the engine bay. I dont know where it is, weather it is on or behind the front axel, making it a type of semi MR. This was one of the reasons in using the rotary engine.

rx7s are considered MR, b/c the engine is behind the front axle.
same thing with the s2000

i read the club 4ag article last night, and they said to put less powerfull brakes in the back, wouldnt that fix the front understeer issue? Also would the same suspension tecniques that apply to the AW11 as the SW20? There seem to be more parts available for the SW20 rather then the AW11 (like turbo's, and what not), unless any one knows a site with AW11 parts/mods. If not then i might consider an NA SW20 over the NA AW11.

The solution of understeer is often changed by spring rate, but you must be carefull.

MR is hard to drift because it requires fast reactions and delicate input. When drifting MR you start countersteering sooner than an FR, but turn the wheel slower. It takes less gas to powerslide, less braking to braking drift, less weight transition to feint, etc. When the rear tires break away the slip angle increases much faster than an FR car and because of this it makes it less forgiving. If you've had a rear wheel drive car before at all I seriously would reccomend against getting an MR-2, especially as your only car. They're not practical at all for daily driving and it's very easy for an inexperienced driver to make one small mistake and end up in a very bad situation.

ive actually never driven a RWD before, only FF and AWD. Also, what makes the MR2 so impractical for daily driving? i can understand not wanting to drive it in the snow or ice, but what about nice spring/summer weather?

Well, for your only car, it would be impractical simpy because you wouldn't want to drive it in the winter. I know a guy with one who says that there's basically a warning on the car that says not to drive the thing in winter.

The first MR2's, I gather, are far better learning machines than the SW20's or whatever. The fact that the Mk1 MR2 was actually designed by Lotus (concept/design bought by Toyota) makes me want one very badly. I've heard many good things about them from owners, an aqquaintance who drives an eight-six, and stuff I've read. Like I said, I'd want one for a second car, so don't worry about me not having a trunk.

I've owned three cars, all old school BMW's. I wanna try an MR2. Maybe that guy I talk to sometimes would let me drive his.

I think the article actually said to put higher grade pads in the rear, makes more sense. Think: more powerfull brakes in the back to fight understeer. What does the e-brake do when ya pull it going around a corner (if it works)?

Did you catch the bit about adjusting the front shocks for less resistance on bound? Helps the thing dive. What is all this leading to? They're trying to make the car more managable, or in other words

they're making it behave more like an FR. Yeah, there are many advantages to MR cars, but the MR2 needs a few wrinkles ironed out. It's snappy. I like that. The guy I know with one says that every day he drives it he finds new reasons to love it. I want to learn the classic MR drift using engine braking. God, I gotta practice my heel/toe.

All the reasons "for" the MR2 Bunta gives are unfortunately black marks as a learner car.
The big problem with the AW11 MR2 is a frightening tendency to snap lift off oversteer and violent high speed oversteer. Both are near impossible to counter for a beginner (and many experienced drivers). Basically, as all that weight behind the driver shifts under deceleration, the rear tyres are unweighted, plus as it swings around like a pendulum under turning forces, the combination means they spin before you know what happened. Even worse if you were, say, lift off suddenly mid corner to avoid a hazard, and presto, the back end comes around.
They also have nasty low speed understeer on slippery surfaces, which makes winter driving quite hairy, as there is little feedback as the front end goes. Its worst in LSD equipped cars.
Finally, they are an absolute pain in the arse to work on, one of the least service friendly cars I have ever seen.
The SW20 is a bit "safer" handling, however if you do push it over the limit, the higher grip threshold and extra weight mean far nastier moments....

I'd get something front engine and rear drive.
a cheap 240sx and an expensive LSD and Teins (or similar) is what you need...

It's impractical for daily driving not only because it's pretty bad in rain/snow (even though I do know people who drive them all year round, it can be done if you've got a lot of experience and good tires) but also because it's very small. You'll NEVER get more than two people in the car and there's very little room for anything else. If you have two people in the car the only place to put stuff is in the tiny tiny trunk. I'm not sure about the gen1s but in my gen2 the front cannot be used as a trunk.

Well, I'm never selling the 2002. It too suffers from chronic lift-off, but has a huge trunk. The MR2 can wait.

If I were to get a 240, I would get the U.S. S13 with the notchback back end. It's like, a oneeightyvia. Er, yeah. I don't really like the bland hatchback 240 we got without the 180 round taillights. I almost bought a 240 for my first car, but I think the insurance steered me to the BMW 2002. Have you guys ever driven a 510? 2002's are similar. Supposedly, the 510 had slightly crisper stock handling, but the 2002's four cylinder is much more competent. Plus, how hard is it to strap on some Bilsteins and H&R's? I did. New tires on 14" rims soon as well. Awesome driver feedback on these cars. I think, properly sorted, they are competition for Haichi Roku's.

Well, I'm never selling the 2002. It too suffers from chronic lift-off, but has a huge trunk. The MR2 can wait.

If I were to get a 240, I would get the U.S. S13 with the notchback back end. It's like, a oneeightyvia. Er, yeah. I don't really like the bland hatchback 240 we got without the 180 round taillights. I almost bought a 240 for my first car, but I think the insurance steered me to the BMW 2002. Have you guys ever driven a 510? 2002's are similar. Supposedly, the 510 had slightly crisper stock handling, but the 2002's four cylinder is much more competent. Plus, how hard is it to strap on some Bilsteins and H&R's? I did. New tires on 14" rims soon as well. Awesome driver feedback on these cars. I think, properly sorted, they are competition for Haichi Roku's.

I can see that. But stay away from rotary 510s unless you know what your doing. the 2002's a classic. I like bimmers and also british cars.

but the 240 is a fine choice given its aftermarket support.

what car you get depends on what you need.

I drove my friends 510 once... it reminded me of a VW Bug...
I would love to see someone DRIFT a 510.... the SR20DET swap is getting mighty-popular with this car.

is MR really that much worse then FR in bad weather? I've spoken to many people about how bad any kind of RWD is in snow, but does MR make it that much worse?

Do 240sx's have Macpherson struts? I know FC's did.

By the way Soyo, all cars have independant front suspension. You'd have to go back about a century to find one that didn't.


first off no 240's don't have macpherson struts

secondly I know they have front indepentdent suspension, but the 24sx and rx-7 also have rear, all I was trying to say :)

My personal opinion is to pick from these cars in this order
1. S14 240sx
2. S13 240sx
3. FC rx-7
4. FD rx-7
5. MKIV Supra
6. AE86

I didn't put in some of the other cars talked about purely because I don't know much(or anything) about some of them. but the S14 is supposed to have the perfect steering for drifting because it doesn't over or understeer, the S13 has a slight oversteer or understeer? I forget which but its not a big deal anyways. the FC has 50/50 front/rear weight ratio making it pretty easy to control and it has plenty of power to break traction and keep it broken(S5 would be better but S4 will work fine too) then I put the FD after the FC merely because it is a lot more expensive, I don't know the weight ratio(heard it was the same though) and it has a lot of power for a begining drifter, but its great for drifting. then I put the supra 5th cuz its so heavy but it still very capable of drifting. finally I put the AE86, which some people think is the 'ideal drift car' well it CAN be the ideal drift car, but stock, its way underpowered, and is 17-18 years old, so things wear out and break down easier. but every one of these cars can be made into amazing drift cars... just get what you like, do some research on each before you decide though

i just saw the note on understeer being fixed by using different springs?
wrong...
you want to change your sway bars...
totally different.
springs can help, but if you grab the new SCC mag, they didn't touch the suspension, save for new sway bars, and they got the under/oversteer dialed in perfect.

Just because SCC said it doesn't make it gold. What car were they using? If it was an RX7, I wouldn't change the F/R spring rates either.

Actually, the 510 was not rotary powered. You're thinking Mazda RX1,2,3...

does any one drift miata's? they are close in power to a trueno, and prolly hav similliar weight, so would this b a fun drift car?

did i say that SCC is golden?
my point is that changing springs isn't your main way to fix understeer/oversteer.

context? what?

i've been doing some thinking (im the thread starter), and given where i live (central NJ) i've realised that i am very limited to places where i can drift. I would like a car that can drift, but also something that feels sporty, so i can have fun driving where ever. I think the miatia might be the best car for this discrition while maintaing the initial price limits. any more comments?

i've been doing some thinking (im the thread starter), and given where i live (central NJ) i've realised that i am very limited to places where i can drift. I would like a car that can drift, but also something that feels sporty, so i can have fun driving where ever. I think the miatia might be the best car for this discrition while maintaing the initial price limits. any more comments?


um... no offense but Miata's remind me of a GIRL's car! Kinda like BARBIE's car... y'know like the one Gizmo drove in GREMLINS? Plus it's open cockpit! Isn't cold over there??? If you want sporty and DORIFTO in one... get an Rx7/FC3s or 240sx/S13/S14!

5.0 Mustang all the way! What you call drifting we call powersliding. Cheap to buy, cheap parts, and lots of support.

HaHa... I just mowed down a 5.0 this morning in my Z! 5.0's don't even have LSD! I don't think this car is very ideal... how much will you waste in gas compared to an S13 or FC? Plus... domestics do not look cool drifting!

Just because SCC said it doesn't make it gold. What car were they using? If it was an RX7, I wouldn't change the F/R spring rates either.

Actually, the 510 was not rotary powered. You're thinking Mazda RX1,2,3...

no datsun 510 had a limited run of rotarys. its a little known fact.

they were like 1 liter two rotor like the rx3.

Strange. Were they before the mazdas? I like rotary motors but I wouldn't turbocharge one. I know where I can find a four barrel rally carburettor and manifold for a rotary. That would be great in an old RX7.

^ i think they came out around the same time

Could you offer up some legitimate proof that there were 510's with rotaries, because I'm saying :bs:

The Datsun 510 powerplant, throughout its life, was the L18; an 1800cc four cylinder deriviative of the L24-28 series used in the Z cars.

There was a brief flirtation with rotary power in the early 70's by Nissan that resulted in this prototype engine and its installation in a 1200 series coupe.

http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photos/383.jpg
http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photos/2679.jpg (just an example of a 1200 series Datsun, not the prototype or a coupe)

Any and all rotary 510's are indeed homebuilt hybrids, and indeed it is a good idea although I slightly prefer Grassroots Motorsport magazine's infamous Ro-Spit (13B in a Triumph Spitfire).

I have heard of ROTARY 510's... I don't know if they are stock or not, however...

Layla's a mod? Well, there's hope for this forum after all.

rotary 510's are not stock.
rotary motors are mazda.
13b or 12b.
no such thing as a rotary datsun/nissan.
end of story.

1viadrft, you don't know much about mustangs, do you?
they're insanely easy to modify, and cheap to build up for road racing.
what's the difference b/n road racing suspension and drift suspension? nothing but the way you set it up.

so they're not hard to drift. at all.

I used to own 2 'Stangs, boyo... well, not a 5.0 but a 302... trash... that's why it's junked in my mom's back-yard. Want it? '71 Coupe... $600... maybe you can get it running and drift it???

you're pushing, seriously.

you don't know much do you?
fox body, not an old 71.
i had a 71. great car.
you're also talking about a car at the beginning of the gas crunch. apples and oranges.

i could easily build an 89 lx 5.0 into a car that would outdrift whatever you own, and do it for less.

and it's not difficult.

please don't refer to me as a boy. you don't know me.
and it's disrespectful.

I said boyo... and I owned a '65 too... junk! BUILD it and maybe I'll believe it! Okay... now go take your pill... you're scaring me, guy!

Mustangs suck, saleens are cool, but they still suck just cuz its a mustang, but whatever you think is fine I guess cuz I'm sure you could care less what I say

sorry people but no 510 had a rotary... mazda=rotary, everyone else=no rotary...

you amaze me.
you guys are little freakin kids in here.

tell me why a mustang couldn't drift?
they suck?
that's your personal opinion.
that same fox body mustang i can build (hell, i'll just use my friends tt 5.0 and show you) can and will run circles around your car.
sideways.

700hp for cheap. great suspension. great wheels/tires.
great handling.
i don't care if you don't like the cars. you've got to admit they can be built, and built well, for cheap.
regardless of whether you like them.

1via.
you're referring to cars that are older than both of us.
65 an 71?
i'm referring to fox body, 79-04.
you're not getting it.