C23-2003GA comparo.

Red X :( And can't get to that forum either as it requires registration.

How about this article? ...


No problem with C23 says FIA
22-01-2004


According to a report in British magazine Autosport, the FIA is satisfied that the similarity between the Sauber C23 and the Ferrari F2003-GA is just that, a similarity, and nothing sinister.
According to the magazine, a 'high-level source' within the FIA has revealed that the sport's governing body had been kept regularly informed during the car's design process and that everything, including paperwork, designs and manufacturing is fully legal.

"Everything is above board," the 'source' is reported as saying. "The car is not the same as the Ferrari, but it is very similar."

According to the report, rival teams have suggested that the C23 is merely a re-painted F2003-GA, though none of them seem to have aired this feeling in public.

With such restrictive design regulations there are bound to be similarities, while the fact that the C23 uses the Ferrari engine and gearbox merely adds to the problem.

Despite 'the source' dismissing the similarity between the 2004 Sauber and the 2003 Ferrari, it failed to mention the even more remarkable similarity between the 2003 Toyota and the 2002 Ferrari. An issue that is still under investigation, though not by the FIA.

Indeed the FIA's failure to make any sort of comment - even via 'a source' - seems most strange.

heh, i love the way they're trying to give toyota a bad name... come on, the TF103's aero packages never even looked like a F2002. So the TF103 has a slanted engine cover, so did the Minardi... The TF103 has the Sidepod Wings, hmmm every other team does...

The Sauber looks more like a 2003GA than the TF103 ever looked like a F2002 if you ask me.

the Toyota looked a lot like F2002 (still does in some respects), Toyota (or one of their employees - the company was quick to distance themselves from this) are also being investigated in connection with industrial espionage. I suggest you read a series of articles about this issue on that website.

I have been keeping up to date on this issue from that website. I'm still waiting to find out the conclusion of this investigation.

But all i'm trying to say is the Sauber looks like more of a copy of the F2003-GA than the TF103 ever looked like the F2002. There's no mistake that almost every bit of the Sauber looks like the GA, minus the 2004 parts. The TF103 had it's own unique aeropackage ever since it rolled out of the factory.

I have to agree with djmr2 here to some extent. Whilst the TF103 was clearly heavily inspired by the F2002 the new Sauber C23 takes imitation to a much higher level. Have a close look, the panel lines and vent covers are all in exactly the same place as last years Ferrari. External dimension are identical except for changes in the regulations.

It has happened before, the 1995 Ligier was almost identical aerodynamically to the same years Benetton. That was because designer Frank Dernie was dumped off to Ligier as part of the scapegoating of Tom Walkinshaw for Benetton's 1994 misadventures. He only had a short time period to design the new Ligier and so went with what he knew.

Dunno what the reasonong behind the carbon copy Sauber is?

Any talk of industrial espionage based solely on the look of last years Toyota is complete rubbish. That doesn't mean other grounds don't exist though...

Well, I'd say there's a difference of Sauber getting ideas from Ferrari and Toyota stealing the design (and not from photographs). I can see where Sauber are coming from - their windtunnel hasn't been calibrated yet and F2003 is a proven winner, so I understand why they'd want the design. Besides, it seems Sauber and Ferrari are working quite close together this year (using the same engine/gearbox), as well as Ferrari offering to pay for Badoer's services for him to test Saubers during Fridays as Sauber cannot afford to run a third car by themselves. I can see it working out well for both parties as they'd be able to develop the engine and tyres together (since all the other top teams are on Michelins).

As for Toyota, the "talk of industrial espionage" is not "based solely on the look of last years Toyota", it is based on the fact that there is an on-going police investigation into the matter.

Yes Alex, but the accusation that Toyota stole anything is unsubstantiated, a superfical similarity proves nothing. Sauber on the other hand have bought/been given last years Ferrari drawings. I recall Peter Sauber talking up the idea of 'off the rack' F1 cars a while back. He has his wish.

And I'm not sure I like the off-the-shelf chassis solution, but I surely like it more than the stealing other's design and using blueprints with the competitor's logo on them during the design of your car. That's all I'm saying.

stealing other's design and using blueprints with the competitor's logo on them during the design of your car

If that is really what happened then the guilty parties should be thrown out of the sport. Of course for that to happen the FIA would have to employ somebody competent enough to prove it happened. So don't hold your breath. On the other hand you'd have thought Toyota would have made a better go of it with that information wouldn't you? And the car would have been the same in concept rather than just employing a few obvious cues.

Back to the Sauber, what is the current ruling on teams building cars? I'm pretty sure they must construct the chassis themselves, not so sure if it must be an original design.

Perhaps engine/tyres didn't want to work with taht chassis. Doesn't matter now I think. But if the police prove that there was indeed espionage, then I'd want the FIA to take appropriate action. But not holding my breath, Bernie cannot lose an F1 team, especially a works one (although didn't stop Max throwing Toyota out of rally).

IIRC there was talk about legalizing off-the-shelf chassis, but I don't think it happened. I don't know about buying/using (legally) other manufacturer's concepts though. But if you read the third post in this thread, the "source" says that the FIA have been kept informed of all that was going on and seemingly have no issues with the Sauber team.

if you read the third post in this thread, the "source" says that the FIA have been kept informed of all that was going on and seemingly have no issues with the Sauber team.

The FIA have been kept informed about a lot of other developmnets over the years only to perform an about-face at the most inopportune moment. Of course that about-face is usually initiated by a protest from a certain red team, so Sauber should be safe this time :)

Yep, although some other teams already are seemingly unhappy ;)

Wouldn't it be funny if Sauber manage to take a point or 5 from Williams or McLaren? I know, will never happen :(

Yep, although some other teams already are seemingly unhappy ;)
And only bound to get unhappier once the season starts...

Wouldn't it be funny if Sauber manage to take a point or 5 from Williams or McLaren? I know, will never happen :(
Huh? I'd say that is the plan! Plus the fact that Schumacher will now have four cars tyre testing for him instead of just Rubens.

I haven't heard any information if Ferrari are planning to run a third car on Fridays. Heard anything?

And if Williams and Mclaren can't beat Sauber they are no threat to Ferrari.

I haven't heard any information if Ferrari are planning to run a third car on Fridays. Heard anything?
I was assumimg it was the same setup as last year. Extra test session on Fridays if agree to limited non-meet test days. Looks like Sauber will take that option, hence Badoer's contract? How the single engine rule will work there :dunno:

And if Williams and Mclaren can't beat Sauber they are no threat to Ferrari.

On a good Bridgestone day Ferrari/Sauber will be hoping for just that.

I was assumimg it was the same setup as last year. Extra test session on Fridays if agree to limited non-meet test days. Looks like Sauber will take that option, hence Badoer's contract? How the single engine rule will work there :dunno:


Nope, the big boys saw all the advantages of Friday testing and changed the rule. Also I think the engines blown on Friday do not count (I guess I need to find out for sure...)

On a good Bridgestone day Ferrari/Sauber will be hoping for just that.

Not just them, me too. Hell, I'll be cheering for Toyota if it's in front of any Williams ;)

About the cheating, pitpass.com posted an interesting article a while back about intellectual information. If you consider that using designs from another car/team cheating, then any team that hires someone from another team is considered cheating. So industrial espinoage happens everytime someone leaves a team and joins another. Whether its on paper or in someone's head it's all the same to me.

I think almost any team that has brought someone over from another team has at least tried to incorporate some ideas into their new cars. If toyota did use the plans exactly, I think they would have made a better car.

Well, the allegations are in fact taht they used the data that the engineer took with him from Ferrari, and I don't mean in his head.

Sorry to revisit this but I found this comparison pic. How many differences can you see? Apart from the changes due to 2004 regs, I can only see a couple, and they are more than likely because the Ferrari in the bottom pic is the early season launch car, compare it to a Suzuka spec car and they'd dissapear I reckon.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/501/50846saubercompare_2.JPG

I dont know what you're talking about phil, i dont see a single similarity, apart from the fact they've both got 4 wheels :rolleyes:


Only kidding :D
You could quite easily be fooled for thinking it's the same car with a different paint job

Would be interesting to do a similar comparison between the Benetton B195 and the Ligier JS41, of 1995. In that year the Ligier was nothing to write home about, hopefully the Sauber is the same. Not that I have anything against Sauber, well, apart from plagiarism.

I once again apologise for belabouting the point, but I find this quite incredible. The Sauber C23 is not a copy of the F2003 - it IS last years Ferrari! At least aerodynamicly, check out these pictures. Besides the small triangular Gurney flaps and Renault style curved horizontal vanes on the end plates, the nose and front wing are identical. Check out the position of the panel lines on the sidepods, once again identical. The curves on the intakes and position of bolt holes and strakes on the barge boards, identical.

If this is a precedent can we expect to see the likes of McLaren and Williams selling their recent chassis to Minardi and Jordan? They ain't got full scale wind tunnels either...

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/50846nose_2.JPG

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/50846sidepods_2.JPG

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/50846barge_2.JPG

It has a shorter wheelbase, 2004 Engine and gearbox, and obviously all the changes required by 2004 rules. At the same time, it must be different under the skin, because they are said to have some innovative cooling system that Ferrari got/bought for themselves. Not that I see anything wrong with buying a design of a championship-winning car while your new windtunnel is still uncalibrated and can't be used to design your own car.

Are you sure the wheelbase is shorter? Must be millimeters in it! There is something wrong with a constructor running a car that they didn't build, it's against the rules I believe. I guess Sauber have "assembled" this one, they sure didn't design the shape. What's under the skin :dunno:

Industrial intelligence is all the rage right now.

It wouldn't surprise me if Ferrari, Mac, et el, all have a secret division dedicated to intel and counter intel.