Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

Hi,

So, in our Park Avenue 1991(normal aspirated) has the No-crank problem.

I have noticed/ tested the following things, so

- battery is ok
- all the lights and as well as instrument panel lights are functioning, also pack-up lights

- no trouble codes

- no voltage for starter solenoid, when turning the key into start position

- no voltage in the thicker yellow wire for the P/N switch, when turning the key in to the start position. I tested the voltage in the yellow thick wire so that the plug near to P/N switch was disconnected, but tested the voltages from input side of the plug. Wrong tested??

- the key ohms are ok, same as in the spare key.

-fuses are ok.


What next to test reasonable easy? If there is some malfunctions regarding the Theft deferrent system box and/or starter enable relay, I would discard the whole system with a couple of resistors matching in our key. I have had the instructions for the by-pass installations but I have lost them.



Thanks beforehand!


BR,


Pena

Is the security lite on all the time?

As Max asked, the first thing to do is observe the SECURITY LIGHT in the cluster.....Turn the key to on(don't crank), the SECURITY LIGHT should come on for 3-5 seconds and then go out.....

Does it stay on? If it does the first thing to suspect is the wiring to the lock cylinder,,,,,

If it goes out, then I would be checking the starter enable relay and it's circuits.....easiest thing to do it swap the relay with another one in the fuse block.....when the key is turned to crank, you should feel the relay "click".....

If it doesn't, remove the relay......and with a test light attached to a good ground, probe all 4 "legs" in the fuse block(may need a paper clip to reach the contacts)....nothing should light up......now have someone hold the key in the crank position....two of the legs should now light up....If nothing lights, check Fuse #2, 60A(in underhood fuse block).....if only one lights, check Fuse #8, 10A(in relay center).....

If both light, and relay is good, then the other two circuits have to be checked.....

One circuit is the control circuit and that is the circuit that grounds the coil of the relay, and that circuit is grounded by the PassKey module.....the other circuit, is the line that comes out of the relay contacts and goes to the P/N switch(yellow wire)......

Hi,

thank you on your replies!

What I noticed concerning security light, it works as follows:

-doors shut and not key in the ignition lock: no security light


- door open, and not key in ignition lock. security light is blinking


- key in ignition lock but not in ignition position: security light is blinking


- turning ignition on but not turned into crank: security light disappears immediately


All the fuses are OK!


I didn´t tested the relays/legs, because i don´t know, what of the relays is starter enable relay in the underhood fuse box.

Could you please tell where the relay in question is exactly located? Chilton manual doesn´t tell it. It says, that ...fuses along with additional relays…..


BTW, the fuse number 2 is for Ignition, says manual and that fuse also is not burnt.


Could you please help me with additional information to proceed.


BR, Pena

Here ya go.....

sorry wouldn't download

This should help:

Since the security light goes out with the key in the "on" position, then the starter enable relay circuit has to be checked.....the relay is not in the underhood fuse block, my mistake....exactly where? Not sure....does your owner's manual state where it is located?

If not, there is another fuse/relay center on the passenger side, under the dash....you might have to remove the hush panel and the lower side kick panel to see it.....

If it's not there, try removing the kick panel on the driver's side(near e-brake)....you might find a single relay there(I remember that's where they use to have them in the Firebird's).....one thing you can try, is listen for a click from the relay when the key is turned to the crank position....

http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc376/gmtech7/starter.jpg

Thanks for your answer!

But, the relay is not located in the passenger side relay center nor driver side fuse center in PA 1991.

It is possible that I can hear some click in the driver side under the dash, when cranking, but I can't see any relay. Must be very far. It is also possibe, that the click sound comes from passenger siderelay center; injectors, ignition etc.

I test once more the yellow wire near to p/n switch and examinethe wiring schema you sent. If I can't find the solution, I would make the resistor bypass for the whole atd system, if i get the instructions.

I be back soon.

Br, Pena

Hi again,


in the yellow thicker wire to P/N switch has no voltages(made an new test). I listed the click voice/sound under the driver side dash. Maybe there was an click but not same as does correct functioning relay, hard to say.


And as I indicated before, that relay location is in far under the dash probably demanding dismantling the whole instrument cluster.


So I would make that system bypass with resistors. Would you or somebody have the instructions for the job?


BR, Pena

Google Vats bypass.

DO NOT BYPASS THE SYSTEM!

That will not fix a relay problem......

Under the driver's side, near the ebrake, is a plastic kick panel....remove it.....down towards the floor is where that relay is located on a Firebird....see if it is there.....It will stick out because you do not expect a relay to be there.....

Make sure vehicle is in Park and the ebrake applied....be careful because the engine may start....One thing you can do, turn key to "on", and disconnect the the harness from the P/N switch, and run a "hot wire" from your battery to the purple wire in the harness....the car should crank over and start....this will verify that there is nothing wrong with the lock cylinder, key, or PassKey module....the problem is the relay....probably just need a new one....

Problem is finding the damn thing....

DO NOT BYPASS THE SYSTEM!

That will not fix a relay problem......

Under the driver's side, near the ebrake, is a plastic kick panel....remove it.....down towards the floor is where that relay is located on a Firebird....see if it is there.....It will stick out because you do not expect a relay to be there.....

One thing you can do, turn key to "on", and disconnect the the harness from the P/N switch, and run a "hot wire" from your battery to the purple wire in the harness....the car should crank over and start....this will verify that there is nothing wrong with the lock cylinder, key, or PassKey module....the problem is the relay....probably just need a new one....

Thanks for all!

I will scheck the things again, but the wirings in PA 1991 would be different than Firebird and Camaro as it is in our GN'87.

I will be back again.

Br, Pena

Yes the wiring is different from a Firebird.....I just suggested it because I knew it was there in a Firebird, and GM sometimes copycats locations.....worth a shot....

Hi,
checked, what things are under the driver side kick panel, there is not any relay. I found the the wiring and relay location information in the other forum:
the relay is really located behind the instrument cluster, above the fuse box and if the relay has to be replaced, it demands to pull out the cluster.

Is it really so, that the resistor bypass method does not cure the relay problem?

BR,

Pentti

Think about it......all the bypass does is, replace the key in the circuit.....you say when you turn the key to "on", the Security light goes out after 3-5 seconds, so there is nothing wrong with the key or the wiring to the lock cylinder.....

I seriously doubt you have to remove the cluster......you may have to be somewhat of a contortionist to get to it......

And remember, I am not saying it is the relay, but that you have to check the whole relay circuit.......it could be the relay or one of the four circuits to it.....

Hi,

Thanks TechII again!

What I have seen under the dashboard, the relay is located in the very bad Place. I saw only the wire connector for the relay.


I have quite small palms, but maybe it is Impossible to get the fingers in there.

The only possibility in addition to cluster removal would be to take an good grip from relay wiring and to pull hard and see what is coming down.

Or how to proceed??

Br,

Pena and greetings from Southern Finland

Problem is you usually have to depress a tab to remove the harness from the relay.....and in addition sometimes, sometimes there is a locking tab, which you have to remove, before you can depress the tab of the harness connector.....

Stupid place to put it, if indeed that is the relay we are talking about....I have not been successful trying to locate it.....

Finland? Can't be too many PA's there!

Hi,

I took away the knee bolster and partly the gauge cluster to see what is behind it. The gauge cluster is attached into plastic case, so I can´t reach the relay trough it unless I make the hole into case if needed. Let´s see if I can reach te relay when knee bolster under the dash is off. More room to watch above the relay box etc.

Yes, I feel also, that there is not so much PAs in Finland, maybe ten, twenty or so. Same thing is also with GNs.


BTW, is that relay some kind of special, or is it bulk style relay from inside regarding functionality and components etc?


BR, Pentti

It should be similar to the set of relays in your engine compartment, on the firewall.....too bad the relay was not put here.....

Also, I think your relay is held in place with a 7mm screw in a metal bracket.....this is a useful tool to get at hex head screws in tight places, a 1/4" palm ratchet....just put a 7mm socket on it....

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71bb1bJcdjL._SX425_.jpg

https://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/molurch/2010-06-11_023324_br.gif

Hi,

and thanks again TechII!

I will continue the job to morrow and use the wrench you suggested. Hope I have the possibility to reach the relay.


BR, Pentti

Hi,
I found the relay attaching nut. It is coming out with an
ratchet spanner with some additional flexible stuff taped to the wrench, about 10 cm. The nut seems to be 10 mm.

Maybe there is not room for socket wrench. Let' see to morrow.

Br, Pentti

They are usually 7mm or 8mm, but they could use a 10mm......

with the relay released, hopefully it can drop down enough to do the tests on the circuits.....

Hi again,

the relay with it´s socket came down near to the fuse box to take the relay out and test the socket wiring. It was not so easy job really. It came out to to take off the knee bolster only and use the 10 mm ratchet spanner with some additional flexible thing taped to the spanner as I indicated earlier.

I did the test to the relay in our kitchen, and it seems to be ok. I served 12 v(also 9 v) to the pins 85 an 86 and and measured the ohms between the pins 30 and 87. So there is the contact between the these pins.

What next? Should I look the earlier posts to find how to test different things in the relay socket in the car, or could you please send me the instructions with the words, how to test it and what I should find, if the things are ok and if the things are not ok, where is the problem?



BR,

Pentti

Post #3....you will be testing the harness the harness connectors not a fuse block.....

Post #6 shows the wiring diagram....if you install a jumper between terminals 1 and 4, and then you turn the key to the crank position, the car should start....terminals 1 and 4 should have yellow wires going to them, if that is indeed the starter relay...

Hi,

and thanks for the help again!

I did the test from the starter enable relay socket(THE RELAY OFF FOM THE SOCKET). The relay and its socket came down laying on the upper side of the driver side fuse box.


So, this is what are the results:


Pink/black coming from the ignition switch to the relay socket according to the wiring schema you sent,

-ign key off:no voltages

-ign key on: no voltages

-Ign key in crank: about 12 v


Black/yellow wire from the relay socket to the pass key control module,


- ign key off: no voltages

- ign key on: no voltages

- ign key in crank: no voltages




Yellow wire coming in to the socket,

- ign key off: no voltages

- ign key on: no voltages

- ign key in crank: about 12 v


The jumper wire connected between the yellow wires in the socket,

- the car is cranking and starting, but dies about within an one second or so.


So,


how you see, what is the problem and how to proceed?



BR, Pena

Well, the fact that it starts, and then immediately dies tells me that you have a security problem......

Your pink/black and yellow wires are showing 12 volts only in the crank poition, which is correct.....and with the yellow wires jumpered, we know the other yellow wire is ok, because the car cranks over.....

As for the black/yellow wire, that never has voltage......it should be an open circuit, EXCEPT, when the key is in the crank position......when the key is in the crank position, the PassKey module GROUNDS that wire....that causes the relay contacts to close and crank the vehicle over......

The PassKey module needs two inputs....one is the resistance of the key....the other is an ignition input(which it receivers when the key is in the crank position)....When it receives BOTH, then it does two things: it grounds the starter enable relay AND, it also sends a fuel enable signal to the PCM.....If the PCM does not receive the fuel enable signal, it will stop firing the injectors and the car will die....

I have never seen the ignition input to the PassKey module be a problem.....I have seen the resistance input, be the main culprit of a no start problem.....as I said before, there are two wires that go up the steering column to the ignition lock cylinder...over time, every time you rotate the lock cylinder to start the car, this causes these wires to flex....eventually one of those wires will break....

We have bypassed the relay with the jumper, that's why the car now cranks over, but it starts and dies because it is not getting a fuel enable signal from the PassKey module......

Way back in the beginning we asked you to look at the yellow SECURITY light in your dash.......I said to you, put the key in the ignition, and watch the light in the dash......now turn the key to "on", don't crank.....that security light should come on for 3 to 5 seconds solid, and then go out......If it is not doing that, then there is a problem with the security system, likely the wires up the column......

There is a way to check those wires....you need to read the resistance of the black pellet on your ignition key....take the two leads of an ohm meter and touch the metal contacts on the opposite sides of the key in the black resistor area of the key.......Under the dash on the driver's side, you should already have the hush panel down....with the key out of the ignition, follow the harness coming out of the steering column, it will lead you to a bulk connector just above the e-brake.....in the center of the connector is a 7mm screw........unscrew it and then separate the harness from the bulk connector by pulling outward.....on the outer edge of the connector, at E12 and E13, you will see two white wires.....these two wires go into an orange colored sheath, that go up the steering column to the lock cylinder...put your ohm meter leads on the contacts of those two wires in the harness.....it should say OL or infinite resistance.....now put your key in the ignition lock cylinder, you don't even have to rotate it, just put it fully in....your ohm meter should now have the same reading as the reading you had when you took the resistance of the key.....if it still says OL or infinite resistance, then you know one of those wires is broken.....

Two choices.....replace the lock cylinder which involves taking the steering column apart, OR, go to your local electronics store and buy a resistor or combination of resistors, that equals your key resistance.....you will then cut the white wires about 6 inches away from the harness block, and attach the resistor to those two wires....solder them.....

Then try to start the car......

Hi,

Buick PA is now running! The problem was the broken wire(s) coming from the ignition lock cylinder(orange wire with two white wires inside it). I was lucky to get one right resistor to solder it between the wires.


Thanks a lot Tech II for a help!!!


Thanks also to maxwedge!


BR,

Pentti