Dash Instruments Posessed

2000 Windstar.
The Dash instruments sometimes go crazy when the car is started.
Basically the Tach, Fuel, and Temp gages all twitch up and down.
First time it did this (wife's van) I told my wife to just turn it off and try again and all was well. That was about a week ago. This morning I was driving and it happened again to me so I know it is more than just a one time event. Any ideas of what is wrong and what to do?

Video attached if it is not too large.
I put in a zip file with a "Movie Maker Project" file type. I am not sure how else to go a video file as I cannot figure out how to do the .psd files.

In a worst case scenario if I had to replace the instrument cluster with a pull from a junkyard would the (new) cluster know the correct mileage for the vehicle from the computer or would it need to be programmed in some way?

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas.

Thoroughly check your alternator. That's a classic early symptom on windstars. Test battery voltage with engine off and again when running. What are the results?

Voltage is
Engine off = 12 V
Engine on = 13.5 V
Tested using the old style analog volt meter as I don't have a digital. Engine on may be slightly higher, but hard to tell. It is not 13.9 - 14 though.

At time of voltage test the gages were normal.
If I get it to act up again I will check the voltage at that time.

It should be over 14 with engine running I believe. If you swing by autozone or advance auto they'll do the battery/alt/starter test for free. That's what I would do..

OK went to AutoZone this morning for the batt, starter, alternator test. Battery showed 100% charge (good.) Starter was good. He also said Alternator was good. Actual voltage was 13.8 and he said anything over 13 is considered good.

I am still planning to ride around with the voltmeter in the car so that if the gages go crazy again I can check the voltage during the episode.

Any other suggestions of things to check?

Nothing simple that I can think of, unfortunately. I'm hoping someone else will chime in here with an idea because it sounds like there's a loose or corroded wire somewhere and, especially with an intermittent symptom, that can be extremely difficult to track down.

Could your belt be slipping and not running the alternator sporadically? If it were on the way out, that MAY cause the issue, but that's really just a wild guess. Usually with a bad alternator you can run for a period of time before things exhibit any symptoms.

Thanks scubacat for the suggestions.
it is true that the intermittent problems are the worst type. Personally I am leaning toward a bad wire type thing like you suggest or perhaps a bad diode in the rectifier setup allowing short bursts of reverse voltage. This assumes I correctly remember high school electricity class. I think an alternator actually makes AC and the rectifier changes it over to DC. May bet totally different these days.

The alternator in the Windstar is a modern form of a dc generator. I don't recall the details of how IT works, but the old style generators made dc without using diodes. The voltage was regulated by opening and closing a relay to the field winding of the generator. I've seen one in a 1953 Ford farm tractor.

Make sure the battery connections (both positive and negative) are good. If a battery is not connected to the alternator, the B+ voltage can fluctuate enough to drive things crazy. The battery is needed to reduce those fluctuations, so a bad or intermittent connection can cause such problems.

Well I have new updates this morning.
When I started the car this morning the gages were going crazy again. Since the engine was already started I checked the voltage. It was still fine (13.8) and no noticeable fluxuations. I turned the engine off and then turned the key back to the run position but did not start. Same condition was seen. Took about 5 tries on and off to get them to act normal again.
This at least to me seems to rule out the alternator as the direct cause. Meaning that the voltage/output from the alternator is not messing up the gages since in the second case the alternator was not turning. Could still be a voltage issue to the gages.
When I got home from my morning errands I did remove both battery cables and did a good cleaning with the circular wire brush tool. Cleaned both the posts and the cable clamps.

I will give this some time to see if the issue clears up or not. If not I know there are multiple other wires cables and connections, but I don't know where they all would be.

DISCLAIMER: total amateur opinion to follow ...

I had this exact same problem in my 01 windstar a couple of years ago, 3 or 4 or 5 separate / ongoing episodes exactly like you described. I called it the exorcist gauges, lol, kinda freaky the way everything twitched in unison. For one thing the tach needle would always go all the way over to the far right side and get stuck under the gear indicator, which then wouldn't return to park position etc.

What I did to rectify it, was take apart the speedo itself, if I remember correctly it will split into two larger main pieces once removed from the dash. There is a VERY intricate PC board inside with many fine contact points and such. I used a commercially available 'switch and contact cleaner', sprayed it on the board and contacts, and then VERY VERY gingerly wiped everything down with a clean soft cloth. Re-assembled the unit and put it back in the dash. Amazingly there has not been any re-occurrence of problems since then. Coincidence or not? I don't know, just saying what appears to have worked for me.

I also saw this done years ago with my inoperative TV remote control, the repair technician split the case, simply wiped the pc board down with isopropol alcohol or whatever he used, and it too is still working fine to this day. That's where I got the idea to try the same general technique with my speedo.

Dartboy69
Thanks for your post. The problem did occur yesterday again after the battery post cleaning so I may need to try what you did. I do already have contact cleaner on hand.
I will wait a few days to see if anyone else has an easier idea to try first.
my tach also gets stuck behind the transmission indicator, but i am able to get it free with a bent paperclip going in through the odometer reset post.

What I did to rectify it, was take apart the speedo itself, if I remember correctly it will split into two larger main pieces once removed from the dash. There is a VERY intricate PC board inside with many fine contact points and such. I used a commercially available 'switch and contact cleaner', sprayed it on the board and contacts, and then VERY VERY gingerly wiped everything down with a clean soft cloth. Re-assembled the unit and put it back in the dash. Amazingly there has not been any re-occurrence of problems since then. Coincidence or not? I don't know, just saying what appears to have worked for me.

That's a great idea. I'd definitely try this. I didn't even think of it but I'm definitely put this on my how-to-fix list if this ever happens to our van.

Thanks for sharing!

I am currently experiencing the same thing with my 99 Ford Windstar.
The instrument panel does it's own thing on occasion while I'm driving.
It's doesn't affect the engine but it does give me a scare.
Did you finally figure out what was causing the problem and did you fix it?
I read somewhere that it could be the ECM.

On another note not related to the current problem (I think), when I turn off my van on occasion the interior lights begin to flash on and off.
Any idea what could be causing this?

Test alternator first. 75% of the time it's that.

Thank you for the quick response.

Took my van to get it battery and alternator check and both are working good.
Guy said it may be the voltage regulator GR815.
Where is this the voltage regulator located on the 99 Ford Windstar SEL 3.8L?:confused:
A diagram would be nice. :)

The voltage regulator is built into the alternator. That's why a failing alternator can cause weird, difficult-to-diagnose symptoms.

Hopefully this will be the final post from me.
About 2 weeks ago i finally did pull the instrument cluster and clean all the contacts.
I had waited to see if it might clear up on it's own (mistake - details to follow.)

When i pulled the cluster i was able to separate the top and bottom circuit boards easily. There were not the gold finger contacts on the board as i was expecting from reading dartboy69's post, but looking back i read more into it than what he actually wrote. What i did find is as follows. The actual instruments are powered from the bottom board with 4 contacts each that go through the bottom board. These appeared to be silver plated spring type contacts. I did clean these well with the contact cleaner since it was apart, but really didn't think that was the problem since all gauges were going crazy at the same time. If just one gauge was doing it then this might be where to look.
There is one connector from the wire harness to the top board. Then there is another connector with flat ribbon cable connecting the top board to the bottom board. I did also clean both of these connectors and the mating pins. Where i really think he problem was was on the bottom side of the bottom board where the pin contacts (or maybe the flat cable) was soldered through the board. There appeared to be some brown sludge (probably excess flux not cleaned properly) and some slight corrosion showing. When i cleaned this it cleaned real well. I really think this was the problem since this would be where all of the signals come into the board and the corrosion could have been allowing the signals to short (cross talk) or something similar. Put back together and all has been well for two weeks vs daily problems before the fix.

Now the mistake of waiting too long (don't wait if this happens to you.) The Tach is now not accurate. When i turn the key to run, but engine off the tach shows 1100 rpm's. When running it appears that the reading is consistent, but high by 1100. My guess is that the pointer was slammed against the home stop enough times that it shifted on the post (pin) by 1100 rpm (this would only be a few degrees.) At this point i don't know that i will try to fix that. If anyone knows how to fix this let me know.

If I had wanted to be more scientific to find the true root cause I would have cleaned one set of contacts and the reassembled and tested before moving to the next set. Frankly I considered this but it was a real pain to actually get the cluster out of the dash so I was not up for that.

Best of luck to anyone else that comes across this problem.

Unfortunately cleaning the battery posts and contacts didn't resolve it. I once had a similar problem (the window motor and a few other interior electrical components would intermittently stop working). I found that one leg of an integrated circuit in the GEM circuit needed to be re-soldered to fix it.

I agree that is not your alternator.

When several circuits are all misbehaving, the cause will usually be a common leg. For example, the return circuit or power supply lines might be a common leg that would affect multiple gauges.

Autozone replaced my eight year old alternator (Autozone Duralast Gold with limited lifetime warranty with receipt and no questions asked) with a new one and all is good. My electric doors open and close without hesitation, my windows open faster, my seats move quicker and my instrument panel is no longer going crazy. Thank you for all your help and information. Ready to roll!

HELP!!!!!!!!:banghead:
After installing the new alternator everything was working great.

:disappoin Today I before I started my van, after it had been sitting for two days, I adjusted my power seat then started the van and the instrument panel started going nuts, but this time the fuel and temp gauge went crazy along with the odometer and speedometer. After the van warmed up the instrument panel went back to normal. I drove the van about 30 miles, stopped for 30 minutes then started the van and it was fine, no problems with the instrument panel.
I drove 10 miles, stopped for 30 minutes then started the van, no problems with the instrument panel.
I drove another 25 miles, stopped for 15 minutes and started the van, no problems with the instrument panel.
I drove for 10 miles stopped for a 5 minutes, started van for another 5 miles and stopped for 30 minutes no problems with the instrument panel.
After the van was stopped for 30 minutes I opened the sliding door and it was as slow as molasses. I pressed the button to close the automatic door and it would not close. I had to start the van and close it by hand.
The instrument panel was good for about 5 minutes until I was at a stop light, then the instrument panel went a little "quick" crazy, then back to normal.
It appears that when I use anything electrical before I start the van it acts up.

NOTE:
While I was doing all this driving, it began to rain so I had to turn on my headlights, the interior instrument panel lights went almost completely dim.

What could be causing this to happen?

Checked the battery without the cables and it was 12..5, and with the cables on it was 12.4. When we check the battery the van had been resting for about 30 minutes.
HELP!!!!! :banghead:

Ed_Strong
AutoZone kept the old alternator and replaced it with a new one.
The battery is less than a year old (Interstate)
The van has been sitting all night long and we intend to check it before starting it. Then do as you suggested.
"You also need to check the battery while the engine is running to see what the output of the new alternator is while attempting to charge the system back up. It should be around 14 volts. If so, then you can start turning electrical components (Headlights, A/C, Rear Defroster, etc) to create a draw and see how the uotput on the alternator dips. It should not go below 12.50 volts depending on your idle speed."
Thanks for the info, will keep you updated.

Would a bad Instrument Cluster (Panel) cause the battery to drain?

My theories are (1) that there is a high resistance contact somewhere in the path [consistent with the lights dimming] (2) there is a low level current draw even when the van is off [consistent with the warm up period].

To check for (1), you'll need to connect a volt meter to the +12v power supply wire at a point as close to the instrument panel as possible.

The check for (2), you'll need to measure the current (ammeter) from the battery when the van is powered off.

we will check 1 and 2. Thanks again for all your help.

After reading and thinking about your problem a little more:

1) Everything is working well right after installing a new alternator
2) Things starting working poorly after van sat two days.
3) Running the van for (xx) minutes caused the problem to dissappear
4) Repeated trips and sitting short periods did not see the problem return
5) Motor speed is low with the van off
6) Instrument panel lights are dim with the van running & headlights turned on.

Things you don't mention:
1) hard starting, or slow starting
2) misfire or rough engine operation

Based on this, it sounds like you have a low voltage to the system, but your battery is able to robustly run the starter motor. The issue seems isolated to power in the interior of the van.

The starter is connected directly to the battery, through the starter solenoid. If the battery were discharged, I'd expect the starter to sound slow and labored.

The slow door motor & dim lights are a strong indication that the voltage is low to those components when the are operated. This low voltage could be due to the battery or alternator, but because the starter is working so well I think it is more likely pointing to a resistance in the wiring.

However, the fact that things improve as the vehicle warms up would seem to point more to a problem with the battery or alternator.

One possible explanation is that the high resistance in the wiring might be going away when the car is operated. A high resistant that is due to corrosion will often get worse as it warms up, but if the bad contact is mechanical (i.e. a break in a wire or a loose spade terminal) then the warming can make the metal expand and improve the contact.

If the lights are dim any time the headlights are turned on, then that's how I'd start to find this problem, meaning I'd turn the lights on to look for the place the voltage dips.

Start at the battery, measure the voltage with the lights off, then turned on. The voltage shouldn't change much at all. I don't know the exact amount for sure, but I think 0.1 volts to 0.2 volts change is the most you should expect. Since the voltage of a single lead acid battery cell is between 1.95v and 2.10 v and there six cells in a typical car battery, your voltage should read between 11.7 volts and 12.6 volts. Under charge this voltage will be at least 13.4 volts and no more that 14.4 volts.


When you check the battery voltage you can do it by contacting the actual battery posts, but you can also check the contact between the battery terminals and the posts by probing on each clamp as well. Don't forget to check the negative as well as the positive.

If that checks out OK, then I think you've shown the problem is not with the battery or the alternator.

If you see issues, then another major contact to check is between the battery negative post and the body of the van, and the engine block. If you use your meter to measure the difference between the battery post and the engine, or between the battery post and the body, you can see if there is a bad contact in the negative wire circuit.

If the voltage with the lights on is much lower, then I'd next look at the alternator.

First, repeat this previous test to check the alternator voltage. It should be equal to or slightly higher than the battery. The voltage on the alternator should be measured at the main B+ wire (the one held down by a nut).

If the alternator is good, but the battery is weak, then the battery voltage will drop when the lights are turned on.

You can also check for positive current flow from the alternator.
With the engine running, put the positive probe of the meter on the alternator main B+ wire and the minus probe on the battery positive. You should see 0.1 or 0.2 volts positive. A positive voltage shows that the alternator is pumping current toward the battery. If the voltage is negative, check that you have the positive probe on the alternator and the negative on the battery positive terminal, and if you do, then you have a problem with your alternator. Next turn on the lights and repeat the test. The voltage should still be positive. The voltage drop on the wire should also increase to reflect the higher current drawn from the alternator with the lights on.

Next check for voltage at points between the battery and interior. This might be easily accomplished by first checking inside the electrical box that is in the engine compartment. For these test is helps to have access to a good schematic of the vehicle. You can purchase temporary on-line access to a complete manual set at motorcraftservice.com.

DISCLAIMER: total amateur opinion to follow ...

I had this exact same problem in my 01 windstar a couple of years ago, 3 or 4 or 5 separate / ongoing episodes exactly like you described. I called it the exorcist gauges, lol, kinda freaky the way everything twitched in unison. For one thing the tach needle would always go all the way over to the far right side and get stuck under the gear indicator, which then wouldn't return to park position etc.

What I did to rectify it, was take apart the speedo itself, if I remember correctly it will split into two larger main pieces once removed from the dash. There is a VERY intricate PC board inside with many fine contact points and such. I used a commercially available 'switch and contact cleaner', sprayed it on the board and contacts, and then VERY VERY gingerly wiped everything down with a clean soft cloth. Re-assembled the unit and put it back in the dash. Amazingly there has not been any re-occurrence of problems since then. Coincidence or not? I don't know, just saying what appears to have worked for me.

I also saw this done years ago with my inoperative TV remote control, the repair technician split the case, simply wiped the pc board down with isopropol alcohol or whatever he used, and it too is still working fine to this day. That's where I got the idea to try the same general technique with my speedo.

Nice~I think you are right.
I have the very same problem recently on my windstar. I will try your solution when I cannot tolerant it anymore.

I realize this is a older thread but I am curious if the cleaning you did Kirk has worked or if the crazy gauges still occur.

Just wanted everyone to know that after finding a burnt bulb, located in the interior of the van, the instrument panel is working well. I have not had any problems and I've been driving it for a while now.
Now I have a new problem. The exhaust manifold gasket is leaking oil.
Now to locate that thread.
Thanks for all your expert advise.

That doesn't make sense as there shouldn't be oil in the exhaust. Given the proximity, do you mean the valve cover gasket? Clean the area with some spray brake cleaner and drive it a bit more to better locate the leak.

My oil is leaking from the gasket at the intake manifold. I found this thread on the site.

http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html (http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html)

trying to upload a photo so you can see what I'm talking about but the 'image' icon wants me to enter a URL.

Click "Go Advanced", then "Manage Attachments" at the bottom.

You may want to start a new thread since it's a different issue.

Thanks!

I realize this is a older thread but I am curious if the cleaning you did Kirk has worked or if the crazy gauges still occur.

Yes the fix is still good.

Thanks for replying Kirk, I will check it out when weather gets warmer.