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For all those who say a FWD can't drift


Tony
06-16-2003, 02:12 PM
I know alot of you guys are gonna say shit about this, i don't care. Its just to explain that a FWD can drift without the use of an Ebrake.

Now to the story:

Saturday on my way home from work, I was about the 4th car sitting at a red light. Its a 2 lane road. Light turns green, got a solid green light and an arrow. So I take off as soon as the front 3 cars allow me to and turn. I hit the turn at about 25-30 MPH, had it in 2nd gear, applied about half pressure on the brake with my left foot while still applying gas with my right foot. My back tires broke loose, I let it slide around and get the right angle, then i let my foot off the brake and gunned it. Wasn't like a completely sideways drift, but a drift no less.

It just shows that you can drift a FWD after much time, practice and knowledge. There are 2 things you need to know, 1: Left foot braking 2: Setting up your tire pressures. My rear tires are set at about 30 PSI while my front tires are at 35 PSI, it might be less than that, but they are set 5 PSI apart. This allows the rear tires to slide easier while the front will still grab longer than the rear.

Ragnarok043
06-16-2003, 02:57 PM
spread the truth Tony im tired of non-believers saying that FWDs cant drift simply because someone else says they cant, cant some of you guys think for yourselfs. even when i tell them about left foot braking theyre too arrogant actually read up on it and automatically dismiss it. i mean Rally drivers the masters of drifting cant be wrong, they have been using this technique for years which has been proven to cut down on track times. the truth is that locking the wheels to initiate a drift is still a drift, why would there be a drifting technique called e brake drifting and shift lock drifting if it didnt qualify as drifting. the only drift an FWD cant do is power over.

Tony
06-16-2003, 03:53 PM
yea, i agree, using the Ebrake to help out a drift is still a drift, but just so no one calls it ass dragging, i don't use the ebrake when i try drifting my civic. I didn't post this to start anything, I posted it to let people know its possible, just like a RWD car, it takes knowledge, time and practice. Now just trying it once and sayin it can't. Also I will agree with the RWD guys, a RWD can do a much better drift than a FWD car, but a FWD can still drift.

Oh yea to let everyone know, my civic is a 91 DX hatch, with stock D15b2(92hp) and stock suspension, only thing not stock is different wheels and no rear interior, everything is pretty much stock.

Suislide
06-16-2003, 04:56 PM
LOOK! guys. for god's sake. if i want to believe that FWD's can't drift (WHICH I DO BELIEVE AND WILL ALWAYS BELIEVE), then LET ME BELIEVE THAT! it's my opinion, and nothing you can say, no ammount of evidence you can present, will change my opinion. likewise, i respect the fact that you guys believe that FWD's CAN drift. i'm not going to say anything to try and change your mind, because it's your damn opinion, not mine. believe what you want, and let me believe what i want. i am 100% done posting in threads about whether or not FWD's can drift, because it's a never-ending argument between 2 groups of hardcore fanatics, BOTH of which won't budge an inch with their viewpoints. i say everyone trying to convince the other side: DROP IT!!! let us believe what we want and let's end all the hostility and arguments once and for all.

/end rant.

Tony
06-16-2003, 05:11 PM
Thats fine Iketani, I said i wasn't trying to start anything, I'm not trying to change your opinion if you are dead set on it. But I figured maybe it will help a few people out. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and im glad you see it that way too.

2strokebloke
06-16-2003, 07:49 PM
Lift throttle oversteer, I already posted about in the "drift the tercel"
As for the whole FF can't drift - how else are FR people going to make themselves feel special?:tongue:

Suislide
06-16-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by 2strokebloke
Lift throttle oversteer, I already posted about in the "drift the tercel"
As for the whole FF can't drift - how else are FR people going to make themselves feel special?:tongue:

don't cross the line, man. we already resolved this.

Fliquer
06-16-2003, 09:05 PM
how else are FR people going to make themselves feel special?

lol I am SO ready to jump down this guys throat if he speaks up :grinyes:

Tony
06-16-2003, 09:08 PM
alright guys, keep it friendly. If its gonna go into an arguement, Ill get this thread locked, we need no more arguements on it.

NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-17-2003, 03:02 AM
there used to be FF cars in the D1 competitions but now they get beat by the FR's quite easily so no one uses them anymore

Ragnarok043
06-17-2003, 03:24 AM
i dont think anybody wants to start trouble but its just that the general public believe that FWDs cant drift just because its the "IN" thing to do. we are just posting some genuine proven techniques that back up our claim not just opinions. all i ask is that you guys atleast be little more open minded read up on how left foot braking works. you can even try it out on GT3, if you still dont believe that fine with me, no harm done.

http://www.rallyracingnews.com/lfb.html
http://www.modernracer.com/tips/leftfootbraking.html
http://www.teammatrix.com.my/Driving/leftfoot1.html
http://www.virtualracersedge.com/left_foot_braking.htm
http://www.leftfootbraking.com/

NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-17-2003, 04:08 AM
i didn't think it there was any doubt that they drift but its
A) alot harder to drift FF
B) not quite as spectacular
C) Can't go as fast doing it

ThaLegend
06-17-2003, 04:23 AM
Whether you use the e-brake or try developing some "left foot braking while applying gas technique" you still end up with a FWD car "TRYING" to do what its not made to do and "PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO..." what ever direction your wheels are pointed, thats where your going so "In my opinion" FWD cars can not DRIFT! RWD ALL THE WAY!

BOOSTD
06-17-2003, 10:11 AM
I'm sorry Tony but I don't believe that getting your car slightly sideways around a corner is Drift. I have been sideways many times in FWD and RWD cars and I have never considered this Drift. To Drift properly you need to be sideways around many corners linking them all together so your car never gets traction. Driving in a straight line then hanging it sideways around a corner is NOT Drift. I don't mean to diss but I think a lot of you FWD guys have the wrong opinion about what Drift really is.

NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-17-2003, 10:15 AM
the video of the Civic "drifting" basically shows what a FWD drift is

its not stylish and its looks horrible so there's no point to it

but

if you download the Top Gear - Car of the year - ford puma video

you get to see a FF car go almost completely sideways like a FR at the hands of Tiff Needle

altho he faints and drives really hard to get it to do so and there's loads of space.

Tony
06-17-2003, 11:19 AM
I wasn't saying it was a giant ass drift, or a linked one, but you try finding some good turns around this place, there isn't any. My only reason for posting this is to show that it is possible, if you definition of a drift is staying sideways through a series of turns, you have a narrow point of view on it, but I thank you BOOSTD for not sounding like an ass and giving me a more logical reason for why you don't think a FWD can drift rather than "ALL FWD CAN DO IS ASS DRAG!! FWD CANNOT DRIFT!!!" Those people are the really narrow minded and just refuse what is possible. If you definition of drift is that, thats fine, I'm not tryin to change it. A drift is just a controlled slide, after you simplify the definition, and no i don't mean take out words that make a big difference. Therefore a drift can either be a big series of controlled slides, or just one little controlled slide.

Also, NSX I thank you for saying a FWD can drift, but giving some reason as to why many people don't do it. I agree, a RWD drift looks a hell of a lot better than a FWD drift, but just because of that, it doesn't mean a FWD cannot drift. That is what a lot of people are thinking. Because a RWD can stay sideways a lot longer than a FWD can, its automatic that a FWD cannot drift.

NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-17-2003, 11:47 AM
i think i wrote somewhere else that they can't but

thats my view on the matter because there were FF drift cars in D1 but the performance of FR is alot better so the FF's can't perform as good as drifts.

Suislide
06-17-2003, 11:58 AM
just to clarify: in my viewpoint, i don't believe that FF simply CAN'T drift. they can get sideways, as you've shown, and in ways, it looks like/is sort of like drifting. but in the truest sense of the word, and under my definition (which i'm too lazy to type out right now), they just can't do it. that's just what i think, and will probably always think. i have much respect for an FF guy that can drift and make it look as good as an RWD car, but as of yet, i just haven't seen that.

Tony
06-17-2003, 12:34 PM
See that is fine Iketani, I think a lot of the FR people are taking the FF people wrong. Im thinking a lot of them are just assuming that when we say a FF can drift we mean just as good, or better than a FR, but we don't. The only reason FF argue about this is just to get mainly to get some of you to admit a FF can drift, but we aren't trying to make you say it can drift just as good as a FR or better, because it has to take a shitload of skill to make a FF drift look anything close to a FR drift. So see, we aren't trying to turn you into FF drifting freaks, just trying to get some of you to admit that it can drift, just not as good as a FR. Thats it.

2strokebloke
06-17-2003, 12:35 PM
I think people are confusing drifting with drifting competitively. It's two completely different things, FF can drift, perhaps not competitively against an FR car.
And anybody who says you have to use the E-brake to get a FWD car to drift is a complete moron, that should get out of their Daihatsu Charade and try driving something else. I feel that alot of people are simply stating that front wheel drive cars can't drift because it's what has been fed to them by other people and they'll just believe them because they don't like proving things for themselves.

mmcc
06-18-2003, 01:54 AM
My opinion of a drift is when a FR has its rear wheels spinning and thus having less traction while going sideways round a corner/roundabout etc. The rear wheels are spinning and the amount of drift is controleed by the throttle. The drift can be of a long distance. There are many techniques eg. Feint, Side, Shiftlock, Power over etc..

I am sure a FF car can go sideways, to be honest any car can. It is the control and technique that earns it the name drift. The word "skidding" could have been used, but this is controlled and thus called drift.

The question is, can a person put a car sideways ON PURPOSE and be in control of the car throughout the CORNER, no matter how long that corner is.

If i am wrong, please let me know. This is just my 5 cents.

P.S. I am driving a 4WD. My car can't drift, but 4WD can drift, ALL 4 WHEELS (JUN EVO 5). I will be selling my car for a S14 Silvia to drift. ;)

Ragnarok043
06-18-2003, 05:26 AM
exactly Tony i think some of you guys are taking it wrong, we all know that RWDs can drift better than FWDs, we're not trying to argue that. we're just saying it possible to drift an FWD, hell you drift anything that can keep its balance through a corner. there are basically 3 types of drifting, power over, lock and inertial. just about any type of vehicle are capable of lock drifting and inertial drifting. its just that only RWDs are capable of power over drifting. so far the only arguments ive heard against FWD drifting are just opinions, facts are can inertial drift anything, you cant deny that.

NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-18-2003, 07:27 AM
EVERYONE SHUT UP ABOUT FF Drifting

its pointless arguing SO CAN WE GET BACK TO SOME DECENT THREADS ??????????????????:comprage1

DriftAE86
07-07-2003, 08:22 AM
a true DRIFT is when you lite up the rears and keep the car moving by using the throttle to control angle and speed through the turn. if its not rear wheel drive, its not a real drift. even some rear wheel drives cant do real drifts unless it has an LSD.

im sick of FF drivers crying about "we can drift too" thats BS. get over it and just learn how to grip. i had a civic EF and it was fun. FF can still have fun without pretending to drift. just dont do it with neon lights and euro tails, for the love of god.

NSX-R-SSJ20K
07-07-2003, 02:46 PM
SHUT UP JUST SHUT UP

TAKE THIS TO THE DRIFTING FORUM IF YOU WANT TO MOAN

NO MORE DISCUSSION ABOUT FF DRIFT PLEASE


D1 accepts FF cars isn't that a good enough reason to believe they can drift? You wanna know why there aren't any? Cuz they can't compete they are no where near as good at pulling mental slides.

LOSNIT
09-22-2003, 10:04 AM
Yes FWD can drift even without using the hand brake. Although this manouvre requires skill. You will only drift in a FWD when you are taking turns at about +80 kmh and appling the footbrake at the right time. I first realised this when i was taking a turn at about 90kmh and the back end just slid out and went vertical with the gutter. It was crazy!!!

JeffForSale!
09-22-2003, 04:42 PM
Yes FWD can drift even without using the hand brake. Although this manouvre requires skill. You will only drift in a FWD when you are taking turns at about +80 kmh and appling the footbrake at the right time. I first realised this when i was taking a turn at about 90kmh and the back end just slid out and went vertical with the gutter. It was crazy!!!
FWD cannot drift, sure D1 accepts them but there are none now are they? What would you say to a guy that asked why tehre were no Integras in the D1? Because they cant drift...

Tony
09-23-2003, 09:57 AM
FWD cannot drift, sure D1 accepts them but there are none now are they? What would you say to a guy that asked why tehre were no Integras in the D1? Because they cant drift...


Yo, this thread died along time ago, we all agreed that if you believe a FF can't drift, then find, keep it to yourself. But for all those open minded people who still believe in the lost art, don't be intimidated by all those narrow minded people who will never believe a FF can drift just because it can't pull show drifts like a FR.

See the reason why most people claim a FF cannot drift is because they have grown used to the Show Drift, and claim that is the only form of a drift. For anyone who keeps up with Auto-X you will know that FF do drift in it. Sure its not as giant as in D1, but its still a drift, it is a controlled slide.

Now that is as far as I am going into it. Either you believe they do, or you don't. Don't bring this arguement up again, we see it way too much and we killed it once before, so let it stay that way.

scourge2u
09-23-2003, 10:37 AM
God god! Oh how the FF people all want to be part of the new drifting fad that they'll make up some BS line about how FF cars can actually drift. :shakehead You people just can't stand being left out after spending so much money on an inferior platform (for drifting that is) that you just can't stand it.

No, its not opinion - FF cars simply cannot drift. They can get sideways. They can mimic drifting. They can be fun as hell to drive. But, at the end of the day, a FF car simply cannot drift. It has nothing to do with style, it has to do with ability. That is why drifters in Japan (you knw, the people all the Americans want to be like) simply never choose FF.

I know people get all passionate about this, just like christians who claim that jesus was real despite any smigeon of evidence to support it, and I'm not gloating about stepping on any toes. Its just that I take it upon myself to inform the masses of the truth. Its painful after investing so much time and money in a project to just let it go, but thats just life.

For anyone who thinks that FF cars can drift, string together at least 2 (more than that will make it so much more embarassing) curves going in opposite directions and see if the FF car can maintain, if not gather momentum, and be able to drift around each corner. As someone who has seen hours and hours and hours of videos, I am yet to see one do it even with experienced drivers. The physics cannot be overcome in a FF platform.

If you want to join this new fad so you can be uber cool in front of your friends, then you need to right equipment. That, or you can focus on something that FF can and does excel at and thats called grip racing tohge style. But then, there is no anime, magazine, or racing series out there hyping grip so there is no bandwagon to jump on. However, FF is an excellent platform to drive in the mountains because the weight is over the drive wheels.

But again, since its not cool to drive grip, my suggestion will be ridiculed and overlooked......

ahutson03
09-23-2003, 02:28 PM
Ok my opinion might be a little biased because I believe that there is very little use for front driven wheels in a performance car. This said, Tony, you could be one of the least knowledgeable people about car physics that I have ever met. What you describe here is a basic oversteer situation. And yes rally drivers drift FF cars IN THE MUD.

Ragnarok043
09-23-2003, 05:24 PM
God god! Oh how the FF people all want to be part of the new drifting fad that they'll make up some BS line about how FF cars can actually drift. :shakehead You people just can't stand being left out after spending so much money on an inferior platform (for drifting that is) that you just can't stand it.

No, its not opinion - FF cars simply cannot drift. They can get sideways. They can mimic drifting. They can be fun as hell to drive. But, at the end of the day, a FF car simply cannot drift. It has nothing to do with style, it has to do with ability. That is why drifters in Japan (you knw, the people all the Americans want to be like) simply never choose FF.

I know people get all passionate about this, just like christians who claim that jesus was real despite any smigeon of evidence to support it, and I'm not gloating about stepping on any toes. Its just that I take it upon myself to inform the masses of the truth. Its painful after investing so much time and money in a project to just let it go, but thats just life.

For anyone who thinks that FF cars can drift, string together at least 2 (more than that will make it so much more embarassing) curves going in opposite directions and see if the FF car can maintain, if not gather momentum, and be able to drift around each corner. As someone who has seen hours and hours and hours of videos, I am yet to see one do it even with experienced drivers. The physics cannot be overcome in a FF platform.

If you want to join this new fad so you can be uber cool in front of your friends, then you need to right equipment. That, or you can focus on something that FF can and does excel at and thats called grip racing tohge style. But then, there is no anime, magazine, or racing series out there hyping grip so there is no bandwagon to jump on. However, FF is an excellent platform to drive in the mountains because the weight is over the drive wheels.

But again, since its not cool to drive grip, my suggestion will be ridiculed and overlooked......

Please :rolleyes: you can have the spotlight if you want, i could care less. you "Elitest Racers" just feel threaten that FF Racers "Ricers" might rain on your precious drifting. no one here ever said that a FWD can drift better than a RWD nor is it practical, just that its possible. you cant even open your narrow mind to the posibility, just jumping on the band wagon ragging on FWDs to make yourselfs feel better.

Yosh Asher
09-23-2003, 11:48 PM
Hey guys, can't you see that you are arguing because you don't have the same definition of drifting?

scourge2u
09-24-2003, 03:11 AM
Usually, its normal for children to have their fantasies but when you grow up, you need to let go.

Please you can have the spotlight if you want, i could care less. you "Elitest Racers" just feel threaten that FF Racers "Ricers" might rain on your precious drifting.

Hahahahaha! I don't even drift here in Japan. I prefer grip as I think its more fun. My car is not set up for drift and I am surrounded by several Japanese who can kick my ass without even trying hard. I am far from elitist....just realistic. I am not threatened at all by FF kiddies who now want to live the Initial D fad after having gone through the clear tail lights, Altezza tail lights, The Fast and The Furious, and now are riding the drift bandwagon so they can feel cool with the "in crowd."

You can't rain on drifting because you simply cannot do it. I love you FF people trying to justify your choice in an inferior platform. Its so personal to you. :shakehead

no one here ever said that a FWD can drift better than a RWD nor is it practical, just that its possible.

But, its simply not. Come to Japan sometime instead of living on the internet. People don't try to drift FF because they aren't as stylish. Japanese don't use FF simply because it simply cannot drift. To prove so, go find to opposite corners and try to "drift" around both without ass dragging. Hell, for fun, string together 3 or more and see just how far you get. Its not about opinion, its about physics.


If FF kids here can videotape and prove that a FF can actually take 3 or more corners in a row while drifting then it will no longer be about physics either. THey will have done something that experts in Japan have tried a long time ago and failed. I am not being sarcastic when I say that if a FF driver can actually drift 3 or more corners, they will become quite famous in a very short time.



you cant even open your narrow mind to the posibility, just jumping on the band wagon ragging on FWDs to make yourselfs feel better.

I am already better....but for other reasons than just a car. I don't put my "coolness factor" in my car. And, I don't take these discussions nearly as serious as you people do. I don't NEEEEEEEEEEED to be part of this fad like you kids do. I'm already here and its just not that big a deal to me. I do enjoy watching kids trying to defend the indefensible. Its not about being open minded or not, its about physics. And, I simply cannot call white, black or black, white, just to pacify the tender sensibilities of kids who made the wrong choice but who now want to be in the latest fad.

You can post crap all day long online but the fact remains that when you come to the track, you will get your ass handed to you. Perhaps APC needs to sell an excuse meter for kids to install. :shakehead

Tony
09-24-2003, 11:52 AM
For one, you don't even know who you are speaking with. You act like I am some 16 yr old who, as you say is just jumping on the bandwagon, because you just found this thread after the release of Initial D over in the U.S. Therefore, your little narrow minded brain automatically assumes I'm a kid who just wants to be cool. Yea, sure I was like that when I was 16, but I grew out of it and don't give a shit what people think. Now, sure I gave a story of me "drifting" one corner, but that doesn't mean I am planning on setting my car up to go to some D1 competitions. Sure I love drifting just as much as the next person, but as you have said, if you wish to drift, and by your definition of drift you mean D1 competition drift, get the right platform.

One person has already said the reason why we are argueing, its because we have different definitions of a drift. You are arguing because you only have 1 type of drift, the D1 Drift, the nice and pretty show drift. But you overlook a different type of racing, like a lot of people do, and never release that people drift in it also, just not on near as big of a scale as D1. Its called Auto-X, sure they don't get completely sideways and hold it, they just slide the back out a little bit to get a better angle for the turn, which is still a controlled slide because they mean to do it, and they control every second of it.

And for me now knowing simple car physics, apparently you know less than me. Yes I know the difference between understeer and oversteer, probably much like yourself. But do you actually have any clue how to help over come understeer in a FF? That could be the big difference right there, and even if you do know, have you ever tried it? That is the problem with alot of people no days, they just automatically assume things without even trying them.

ahutson03
09-24-2003, 01:16 PM
Who said anything about understeer. Road and Track's automotive dictionary(a VERY credible source) states that a drift is A handling term describing a car cornering with its front and rear tires sliding in a controllable manner. The driver uses bothe throttle and steering to keep the car on a prescribed path. It later goes on to say in a precise manner that oversteer is a condition which the rear tires are at a larger slip angle than the fronts This describes the situation you were describing. In your situation the front wheels still had traction. Also comparing drift to grip is like comparing drag racing to road racing there just arent that many similarities. Also you might not want to "tell" someone something when youve never experienced it yourself. A few of us are experienced competitive drivers and its kind of offensive when someone like you trys to spread falsehoods in the name of looking cool.

Ragnarok043
09-24-2003, 03:07 PM
do you any of you ever think for youselfs and come up with an original idea instead of passing others people opinion as facts. i keep hearing the same argument, you need to string more than 1 drift inorder to be a real drift. by that definition accel off, braking, and feint arent really drifting at all only power over. you cant pick and choose whats drifting, its either none or all. i also keep hearing you guys say that its physically impossible that its only a RWD can drift. the truth is that you can drifting anything that can keep its stability through a corner, i dare you to go up to a Physics Professor tell him that only an RWD vehicle can drift.

scourge2u
09-24-2003, 06:25 PM
You keep telling yourself what you want. Thats ok. Fanatics of all stripes cannot face reality so you are not alone. Arguing with a fanatic is a waste of time unless its only for entertainment. You keep thinking that FF cars can drift so you can fell all better about yourself....mmmmmkay.

But, reality will pass you by as FF cars simply cannot drift. You might not be 16 physically but you are in other ways. I dare you to come to Japan and tell professional drifters that FF cars can drift. You'll get your ass laughed at and if you tried to take your FF car on the track you'll get your ass handed to you. Interesting how the FF guys always avoid talking about going o a track. Well, not really because they know if they address this they will have to face the weakness of their choice in cars and so they.... :crying:

Ragnarok043
09-24-2003, 10:00 PM
You keep telling yourself what you want. Thats ok. Fanatics of all stripes cannot face reality so you are not alone. Arguing with a fanatic is a waste of time unless its only for entertainment. You keep thinking that FF cars can drift so you can fell all better about yourself....mmmmmkay.

But, reality will pass you by as FF cars simply cannot drift. You might not be 16 physically but you are in other ways. I dare you to come to Japan and tell professional drifters that FF cars can drift. You'll get your ass laughed at and if you tried to take your FF car on the track you'll get your ass handed to you. Interesting how the FF guys always avoid talking about going o a track. Well, not really because they know if they address this they will have to face the weakness of their choice in cars and so they.... :crying:

I use to be just like you automotically taking the opinions of "profressionals" as facts. just because a Japanese Drifter is good at drifting doesnt mean what ever they say is right. Tony and I didnt start out as FF fanatics as you might assume. we used to accept the idea that FWDs cant drift and knew they were inferior to RWDs. then i actually did some research myself and Tony was open minded enough to listen to what i found. why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth, i have never said that a FWD can out drift a RWD nor is a FWD a superior platform. im not fucking stupid, no shit a FWD will get its ass handed to it :rolleyes: . i also noticed that you did not address my any of my points you just keep dodging it using the same arguement over and over again. some "professional" said that its impossible, its very tiring. do you ever think for yourself and actually go do the research yourself or atleast try play devils advocate. you can never prove some thing is impossible, time and time again the greatest minds have been proven wrong.

Tony
09-25-2003, 02:57 PM
Thank you Ragnorak. Like I have said time and time again, its all a matter of opinion. For those open minded, yes a FF can perform a form of drift. For those that are closed minded, no a FF cannot drift and will never be able to, even though they have been told time and time again that FF used to compete. I'm tired of arguing to a rock, if you don't believe a FF can drift, never could, and never will, thats fine, so be it. But for others that are still open minded about the situation, let them do some research instead of just trying to force them into believing a FF can't drift. You have no facts other than a FR can perform a much better drift, that is your only fact. We never said a FF can drift as well as a FR or ever will be able to, but we don't rule out the fact that a FF can drift.

Alright, sure my story at the beginning of this page, I shouldn't really call that a drift, all I was pointing out was the fact that you can get the back to break loose with a some skill and knowledge, and not the E-brake. The problem with everyone was that all they can believe is a FF can only have understeer, therefore can never get the back loose without the E-brake. All my point was that you can, and with actually having money to perform some suspension modes, you can get a FF to drift.

Like I said, I am done arguing with a rock, if you wish to continue to argue about it go for it....even though I don't know how a rock speaks or types.

RACER D12
09-25-2003, 07:08 PM
In a drift you should be able to do it in a stright line and for as long as you want. In a FF you can only do it for short time and to me thats a slid.

MDiGiamm
09-25-2003, 07:40 PM
I am another firm believer in FWD cannot drift. In a drift you should be able to control the slide angle and speed with the throttle. This cannot be done in a FWD. In a FWD all you can do is ride along. Maybe turn the wheel to adjust your angle but other than that you are not in control(you cannot control your speed while sliding). You cannot control anything with the throttle. You just have to hope you have enough speed to slide around the corner, not drift. Tony, according to you, anything with 2 wheels can drift. All you have to do is get the rear tires to slide out a little bit. So that includes motorcycles, bicycles, go karts.. etc. That is not drifting, it is a state of uncontrolled oversteer. Try to tell me otherwise, I don't care. To me this does sound like FWD guys trying to hop on the new drifting fad. The only way a FWD can drift, is if you make up your own definition of drifting. Which is exactly what you did in trying to get on the band wagon. According to you as long as my rear tires slide around the corner i drifted. Foolish.

scourge2u
09-25-2003, 10:44 PM
Preach it brother MDiGiamm! Its NOT about opinion, its about fact. Its about how FF guys see this new fad that they cannot be a part of yet feel they must find soooooome way to do so.

It was mentioned earlier about talking to a physicist. Talk about relying on experts.... :rolleyes: These guys can only drift by making up bullshit definitions that let them think they can do what they simply cannot. Ask a physicist about drifting and he'll tell you its possible? Hell, ask a physicist if String Theory is possible and he will tell you yes. No go prove it! Therein lies their greatest weakness. They simply cannot drift in reality. Its not dodging by pointing out this fact.

Silly kids wanting to be cool in the latest fad. :rolleyes:

Layla's Keeper
09-26-2003, 12:59 PM
All right, scourge, I usually try to keep my FR nose out of FF business like this (1970 MGB GT driver) but as someone who has been involved in autocross and club racing for a lot longer than "drifting" has been a performance buzzword I think it's time I came in and said what is what.

Now, for starters, let's put one thing to rest: D1. D1 type drifting, to quote Car & Driver magazine, is the automotive equivalent of surfing. It's not about fast, it's about style. I respect that, I've tried it, and I've enjoyed it. And, for that purpose, an FF chassis layout is not beneficial, however drifting comes into play in other forms of motorsport.

In autocross, for instance, snap oversteer is nearly a necessity. I know many guys with Golf GTi's and ACR Neons who have figured out how to set up their chassis to achieve this. By dialing in a certain amount of rear toe-in (don't ask me how much, I don't deal with that sort of thing thanks to a solid rear axle and leaf springs), increasing tire pressure to its utmost limit, setting the springs ultra stiff, and dialing out camber, you can achieve a very tail-happy FF car. This is also evident on many 80's hot hatches, not the least of which is the 1985 Dodge Omni GLH which combined an ultra-stiff rear suspension with radical torque steer to achieve an oversteering FF chassis.

It still does not make up for power-on oversteer such as what Miata's or my BGT can do, but it is easier to recover from and does a lot of good in chicanes. I helped a friend dial a similar, but not quite as radical, setup into his Mirage Coupe and it did the car a world of good in merely quelling understeer.

Notice, thus far I have not mentioned the handbrake. Merely ways through thoughtful suspension setup to encourage oversteer in an FF chassis.

Also, you continously mention "come to Japan and you'll see what drifting is all about". I'm very happy that you live in Japan and I'm sure you have every reason to be proud of your local drift scene. However, it's hardly a thought-provoking argument. All the further I've needed to go to truly understand drifting is Rossburg, Ohio to see the King's Royal at Eldora Speedway; America's second richest night of short track racing, after the Historical Big One (also at Eldora). When you see a methanol-burning, 410ci small-block powered sprint car hurtle itself sideways around a 33 degree banked 1/2mile dirt speedway in 12seconds, then you know drifting.

There's more to this hobby than the traction limitations of old Corollas, perhaps that's something you need to learn.

RACER D12
09-26-2003, 02:43 PM
One more thing does D1 ACCEPT Fwd or have they just not made rule against it because no one does it.

scourge2u
09-26-2003, 07:51 PM
I need to learn that its more than about old Corollas? :rolleyes: D1 is hype. Those guys are not the best drifters in Japan. And, I have said before and I wil lsay again, oversteer alone in not drifting. I know you were trying to help Racer D12, but you post really didn't add anything.

RACER D12
09-26-2003, 08:23 PM
Oh well Im just post whoring it up

scourge2u
09-26-2003, 08:34 PM
Hahahaha! Well said. I liked your comments about Auto-X though. FWD car can excel at Auto-X but there isn't any new bandwagon to jump on for it. It doesn't have its own manga/anime or video game and its not "Yo dawg, that chit is sooo JDM type, YO!" Auto-X is USDM so its not as cool. :loser:

Instead of focusing on the strengths of FWD*, kids continue to try to get into something they simply cannot. Its like kids wanting to play football without a football. You wanna play? You're going to need to right equipment.


*I know of a Skyline owner who has over 800hp. No FWD will play with him at drag racing. But, he won't play with Honda Civics driving grip in the mountains. They own their turf and he owns his. Americans need to learn that.

Ragnarok043
09-26-2003, 09:08 PM
I am another firm believer in FWD cannot drift. In a drift you should be able to control the slide angle and speed with the throttle. This cannot be done in a FWD. In a FWD all you can do is ride along. Maybe turn the wheel to adjust your angle but other than that you are not in control(you cannot control your speed while sliding). You cannot control anything with the throttle. You just have to hope you have enough speed to slide around the corner, not drift. Tony, according to you, anything with 2 wheels can drift. All you have to do is get the rear tires to slide out a little bit. So that includes motorcycles, bicycles, go karts.. etc. That is not drifting, it is a state of uncontrolled oversteer. Try to tell me otherwise, I don't care. To me this does sound like FWD guys trying to hop on the new drifting fad. The only way a FWD can drift, is if you make up your own definition of drifting. Which is exactly what you did in trying to get on the band wagon. According to you as long as my rear tires slide around the corner i drifted. Foolish.

the conditions you just described only applies to "power over" drifting. then how do you explain brake, accel off shift lock and feint drift. theres more than one way to controling a drift such as with braking, the steering wheel and weight transfer.

Ragnarok043
09-26-2003, 09:21 PM
Preach it brother MDiGiamm! Its NOT about opinion, its about fact. Its about how FF guys see this new fad that they cannot be a part of yet feel they must find soooooome way to do so.

appearently it is a matter of opion cuz it seem that only power over drifting applies.

It was mentioned earlier about talking to a physicist. Talk about relying on experts.... :rolleyes: These guys can only drift by making up bullshit definitions that let them think they can do what they simply cannot. Ask a physicist about drifting and he'll tell you its possible? Hell, ask a physicist if String Theory is possible and he will tell you yes. No go prove it! Therein lies their greatest weakness. They simply cannot drift in reality. Its not dodging by pointing out this fact.

Silly kids wanting to be cool in the latest fad. :rolleyes:

well it looks like you havent actually read anything that i wrote which is not surprising. my whole point wasnt based on relying on Physicist, it was based on you inconsistent defination of a true drift. and yes they cant prove the Super String Theory because its just that a "THEORY!!!!!!!"

i dont know about the rest of you but to me a Physics Professor is more reliable than a Japanese Drifter unless he happens to be a Physics Professor

Ragnarok043
09-26-2003, 09:23 PM
All right, scourge, I usually try to keep my FR nose out of FF business like this (1970 MGB GT driver) but as someone who has been involved in autocross and club racing for a lot longer than "drifting" has been a performance buzzword I think it's time I came in and said what is what.

Now, for starters, let's put one thing to rest: D1. D1 type drifting, to quote Car & Driver magazine, is the automotive equivalent of surfing. It's not about fast, it's about style. I respect that, I've tried it, and I've enjoyed it. And, for that purpose, an FF chassis layout is not beneficial, however drifting comes into play in other forms of motorsport.

In autocross, for instance, snap oversteer is nearly a necessity. I know many guys with Golf GTi's and ACR Neons who have figured out how to set up their chassis to achieve this. By dialing in a certain amount of rear toe-in (don't ask me how much, I don't deal with that sort of thing thanks to a solid rear axle and leaf springs), increasing tire pressure to its utmost limit, setting the springs ultra stiff, and dialing out camber, you can achieve a very tail-happy FF car. This is also evident on many 80's hot hatches, not the least of which is the 1985 Dodge Omni GLH which combined an ultra-stiff rear suspension with radical torque steer to achieve an oversteering FF chassis.

It still does not make up for power-on oversteer such as what Miata's or my BGT can do, but it is easier to recover from and does a lot of good in chicanes. I helped a friend dial a similar, but not quite as radical, setup into his Mirage Coupe and it did the car a world of good in merely quelling understeer.

Notice, thus far I have not mentioned the handbrake. Merely ways through thoughtful suspension setup to encourage oversteer in an FF chassis.

Also, you continously mention "come to Japan and you'll see what drifting is all about". I'm very happy that you live in Japan and I'm sure you have every reason to be proud of your local drift scene. However, it's hardly a thought-provoking argument. All the further I've needed to go to truly understand drifting is Rossburg, Ohio to see the King's Royal at Eldora Speedway; America's second richest night of short track racing, after the Historical Big One (also at Eldora). When you see a methanol-burning, 410ci small-block powered sprint car hurtle itself sideways around a 33 degree banked 1/2mile dirt speedway in 12seconds, then you know drifting.

There's more to this hobby than the traction limitations of old Corollas, perhaps that's something you need to learn.

i believe ownage is in order

Ragnarok043
09-26-2003, 09:29 PM
Hahahaha! Well said. I liked your comments about Auto-X though. FWD car can excel at Auto-X but there isn't any new bandwagon to jump on for it. It doesn't have its own manga/anime or video game and its not "Yo dawg, that chit is sooo JDM type, YO!" Auto-X is USDM so its not as cool. :loser:

Instead of focusing on the strengths of FWD*, kids continue to try to get into something they simply cannot. Its like kids wanting to play football without a football. You wanna play? You're going to need to right equipment.


*I know of a Skyline owner who has over 800hp. No FWD will play with him at drag racing. But, he won't play with Honda Civics driving grip in the mountains. They own their turf and he owns his. Americans need to learn that.

this only proves how narrow minded and prejudice, you are. you cant even participate in reasonable debate with out resorting to childish name calling. how i pitty you.

2strokebloke
09-26-2003, 09:37 PM
Hmmmm, this topic is still going? Perhaps if some people decided to think for themselves, and actually find facts, rather than listen to "information" that "those who know" spew, they'd know perfectly well that a FF car can drift. Perhaps not as prettily, or easily a RWD car - but still get sideways (and how sideways may surprise you)
There seems to be alot of people who think that a drift can only be accomplished by overpowering the rear wheels and breaking traction, in short order - powersliding. However, outside of this concept and in the real world there are plenty of ways to initiate a drift. Since this topic has been played out so much, and there will always be those who are too ignorant and close minded to see the whole picture, I'll just leave you this quote, from when FWD was in it's infancy...

...you may find yourself lifting your foot off of the accelerator. For such faint-heartedness you will pay. Your rear end may start trying to catch your front end...

Such warnings were common about driving early FWD cars, until engineers began to make them handle like (you guessed it) FR cars! With understeer etc.

EDIT: I shouldn't have, but I decided to read the entire thread - my what ignorance. How are people going to get at the facts, if they choose to blatantly ignore them?
Please, will a moderator just close this thread so we can get past this?
I've owned FWD and RWD (in fact I still own both front engined and ear engined cars) and I can say from my own experience that alot of you people should actually find stuff out for yourselves, from real experience, rather than regurgitate unmitigated horse feces as truth.

scourge2u
09-26-2003, 11:37 PM
But the thing is-is that WE HAVE FOUND OUT. FWD cars simply cannot drift...period. Its only Americans who have dumped a lot of money into their FF platform but now want to jump on board this new "JDM tyte yo" bandwagon who are making up this fantasy that they can be a part of it.

I love how the FWD guys consistently fail to offer a video...ANY VIDEO of FWD cars drifting especially more than just one corner. We all know why no one has been able to provide such a video....they simply do not and cannot exist. The only problem is the FWD kids who fail to face reality. Its not about being open minded, its about beian able to accept the facts instead of the wishful thinking of a bunch of kids.

Yes, FWD cars can get sideways but they are not in control. They are simply sliding....not drifting. Nothing can change that.

Ragnarok043
09-27-2003, 01:50 AM
the reason why you dont see much videos of FWDs drifting is because its very hard to master and takes alot of dedication. anyone that wants to seriously drift is obviously gonna choose an RWD platform, its much easier to master the power over technique than its is to master left foot braking. when you say "WE HAVE FOUND OUT", have you gone and actually tried to drift an FWD with the left foot braking technique. your continous attempt to sidetrack my point by belittling me into an childish argument of FR vs. FF has not phazed me one bit. i also seriously doubt that even a video can even convince you, youve obviously got you mind set. i no longer see any point in trying to debate with someone who is arrogant, prejudice, stereotypical, uncivil, and unwilling to reason. this will be my last and final post in this thread, ive already presented my point. i encourage anybody thats open minded enough to research my idea themselves, if theres any question you can PM me.

ill even let you have the last word before a mod closes this thread, then you can get back on your pedistal.

scourge2u
09-27-2003, 02:09 AM
People can research your idea from now till eternity...butthey simply cannot produce tangible results IRL. You can have your theory all you want...right along with String Theory. You're wrong about FWD drift videos. They do exist showing FWD cars TRYING to drift. Even pro Japanese FWD drivers fail....FAIL to complete more than one corner because FWD is simply not a suitable platform for drifting.

Its not about being open minded, its about the ability to accept reality and recognize wishful thinking for what it is. You can call that uncivil all you want, but you will remain wrong on this issue. I tried drfting my FWD car for months but all you do is slide and hope you got the correct angle. You cannot steer the car and keep sliding at the same time.

It reminds me ofthe Color Me Bad song back about 11 years ago, "Dream on......Dream away...." You obviously feel a need to be part of this new drifting fad yet you don't want to use the right equipment. You are nothing more than an internet drifter inventing definitions to make you feel better.

I told you before that I am not a drifter and I am not talking from the standpoint of some drift god. I just accept reality. Its not about FWD lacking style points. Its about FWD lacking ability. I gave you an example of something FWD cars can and do excel at yet, since this is not the new bandwagon for you to jump on, you simply ignore it. FWD drifting exists only in the minds of American kids who want to ride this new fad so they can feel cool. How... :loser:

Tony
09-27-2003, 08:26 AM
Alright I am having this thread closed, the facts are layed out....or theories, whichever you prefer to call them. People can make up their own mind. The whole purpose of this thread was to help get some facts out there to prove FWD is possible with some knowledge.....depending on your definition of a "drift." I have never once said I was planning on creating a FWD drift, because I know that a FF cannot keep up with FR when it comes to whateveryone knows as drifting, which is D1. None of us fighting for the FF have sayed we are going to create a FF drifter, we are just laying out facts to let people decide on their own. If you are unwilling to budge on your point of view, fine then, I don't go around trying to change a minister's religion, because its about the same. Since I don't believe in the same thing as you do, I am wrong. I'm sorry I have different points of view.

Layla's Keeper, I thank you for putting exactly what I was trying to say in better words, maybe people will understand your words better than mine, but I could never agree with you more.

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