What is drifting?

I'm going to pose as an ignorant noob and ask "what is drifting" because somebody's going to ask sooner or later and it should make an interesting thread (which if it turns out good you can direct the real ignorant noobs to - let's just hope they don't read the ignorant part)

So, I want to know what Drifting is.

drifting, in short, is using a RWD car to create a lack of traction to the rear wheels (the drive wheels) and power through a series of corners sideways, using inputs of throttle to the rear wheels to keep on course. drifting is NOT getting sideways for half a second around a corner. drifting is the art of stringing many corners together into one long seamless run. it can be described as "artful recklessness", as basically you're out of control, but in control at the same time. you're trying to keep your level of out-of-control-ed-ness under control, if that makes sense.

and yes, in my opinion, ONLY RWD cars can drift. like i said, drifting relys on the lack of traction in the rear wheels to power through the corner crossed up. if you have a front wheel drive car, you can get sideways, but a) you won't be able to hold the drift for as long because your back wheels will be locked up (from using the e-brake) and will naturally want to slide back into line) and b) you won't be able to go as fast, since you'll be using a form of braking. also, since it's the front wheels being used to power the car through the corner, they have traction it's just not the same, and i don't consider it drifting at all. there are people who do, though. FWD "drifting", i call it "ass-dragging".

so there you go, a simple definition.

Originally posted by S13_Iketani
drifting, in short, is using a RWD car to create a lack of traction to the rear wheels (the drive wheels) and power through a series of corners sideways, using inputs of throttle to the rear wheels to keep on course. drifting is NOT getting sideways for half a second around a corner. drifting is the art of stringing many corners together into one long seamless run. it can be described as "artful recklessness", as basically you're out of control, but in control at the same time. you're trying to keep your level of out-of-control-ed-ness under control, if that makes sense.

and yes, in my opinion, ONLY RWD cars can drift. like i said, drifting relys on the lack of traction in the rear wheels to power through the corner crossed up. if you have a front wheel drive car, you can get sideways, but a) you won't be able to hold the drift for as long because your back wheels will be locked up (from using the e-brake) and will naturally want to slide back into line) and b) you won't be able to go as fast, since you'll be using a form of braking. also, since it's the front wheels being used to power the car through the corner, they have traction it's just not the same, and i don't consider it drifting at all. there are people who do, though. FWD "drifting", i call it "ass-dragging".

so there you go, a simple definition.

And what a perfect one it is.

Wow well put. IHMO FWD can drift it's not as good but i think it's still a drift. You put the "art" of drifting into words well congrats.

Originally posted by S13_Iketani
and yes, in my opinion, ONLY RWD cars can drift.

What about AWD?

Originally posted by dayna240sx


What about AWD?

i was just about to ask that. Although i have never done it, im sure it can be done on AWD. I would imagine it would be much easier it if was less than 50/50 power spread though

Good definition. 'controlling the state of out-of-control-ness' :iceslolan

Yes AWD can drift. not all AWD give 50/50 though making drifting easier like on my dads subie when you step on the gas you get like 90 to the back 10 the front.

Originally posted by S13_Iketani

and yes, in my opinion, ONLY RWD cars can drift. like i said, drifting relys on the lack of traction in the rear wheels to power through the corner crossed up. if you have a front wheel drive car, you can get sideways, but a) you won't be able to hold the drift for as long because your back wheels will be locked up (from using the e-brake) and will naturally want to slide back into line) and b) you won't be able to go as fast, since you'll be using a form of braking. also, since it's the front wheels being used to power the car through the corner, they have traction it's just not the same, and i don't consider it drifting at all. there are people who do, though. FWD "drifting", i call it "ass-dragging".

so there you go, a simple definition.

But are you not forgetting that you do not need to use the e-brake to cause a loss of traction to the rear wheels of an FF car? (and therefor the rear wheels will not be locked up) And that so long as you do not apply power to the front wheels the rear end will not go back into line?
Otherwise a very good explanation.

Originally posted by 2strokebloke


But are you not forgetting that you do not need to use the e-brake to cause a loss of traction to the rear wheels of an FF car? (and therefor the rear wheels will not be locked up) And that so long as you do not apply power to the front wheels the rear end will not go back into line?
Otherwise a very good explanation.

but if you don't apply power, the car will lose forward momentum alot quicker, whereas RWD cars can power around loooong corners, staying in the drift the entire time. and you're right, you don't HAVE to use the e-brake...but unless the surface is slippery, it's a bit harder to throw the "dead" back end of an FWD car out.

AWD cars can drift...but it requires more skill. i'm not too well-learned on this topic as i'm a RWD drift freak.

Originally posted by S13_Iketani


but if you don't apply power, the car will lose forward momentum alot quicker, whereas RWD cars can power around loooong corners, staying in the drift the entire time. and you're right, you don't HAVE to use the e-brake...but unless the surface is slippery, it's a bit harder to throw the "dead" back end of an FWD car out.

AWD cars can drift...but it requires more skill. i'm not too well-learned on this topic as i'm a RWD drift freak.

But if you apply power, you only going to have to use the brake to make the turn, therefore lifting off of the throttle to induce oversteer to allow making a sharper corner will still save time - also believe me or not, there are plenty of RWD cars out there that are harder to coax into oversteer than some FWD cars (My '82 FWD Tercel will oversteer easily, but you really have to go at it to get a RWD Corolla from the same year to turn like that! - if you can manage at all)

I drift my dads fwd ED all the time, but it is alot easier in the rain. but it is possible. FYI drifting in japan started with fwd cars until rwd came into affect and the fwd cars couldnt compete.

Originally posted by 180driftking
I drift my dads fwd ED all the time, but it is alot easier in the rain. but it is possible. FYI drifting in japan started with fwd cars until rwd came into affect and the fwd cars couldnt compete.

there were RWD cars a long time before there were FWD cars, so i don't believe this at all.

Ok, once more this fantasy notion of overpowering the rear tires as drifting comes into play. That's only one type of drifting. Most "drifters" out there who claim FWD cars can't drift are the ones who simply overpower the rear tires to lose traction. A FWD cannot do this, and has to rely on inertia to break the tires loose.

The simple definition of drifting, is overcoming the lateral traction of the tires, whether through inertia, overpowering, or locking up the brakes. This means putting more force on the tires sideways than they can handle, making you slide in the direction you inertia is carrying you.

Since a car has 4 wheels, you can classify 3 basic categories of drifting.

Understeer, where the front wheels lose traction before the rear wheels. This happens if you get on the gas too much in a corner, but aren't applying enough power to lose rear traction. The front end will push out towards the outside of the corner, and the drive has to back off the throttle. Almost all cars are factory tuned for understeer for safety reasons.

Oversteer, where the rear wheels lose traction before the front wheels. This is the most common form of drifting on the street. When this happens, the front end of the car points to the inside of the corner, and the rear end slides behind. It can be induced by many means, and is easily induced by using the throttle to keep the rear wheels spinning in a RWD car after breaking traction. Countersteering, or steering in the direction opposite the corner(turning the wheel to the right in a left hand corner) is usually necessary to maintain an oversteering drift.

Four wheel drift, which is when all four wheels have lost traction, and the car moves sideways, instead of changing it's yaw angle, as it does with understeer or oversteer. If you watch vintage racing from the 40s and 50s, you will see lots of this. This is also what you see in Rally racing, it's simply using your inertia to overcome the traction of your tires, as you can maintain a much higher speed if you don't slow to the cornering limit of the tires.

That said, there are many different ways of breaking traction to initiate a drift. Most people use the e-brake or a clutch kick, but the underlying principle of drifting is weight transfer. When a car is at it's cornering limit, a small transfer of weight/inertia between front and rear will make the difference between understeer, oversteer and four wheel drift. You can feel weight transfer when you brake, and you feel like you are being pushed forward, that is weight transferring to the front of the cars, directly onto the front wheels giving them more traction, and taking that weight and traction away from the rear wheels.. You can also feel it under acceleration, when you are pushed back into the seat. This is putting weight onto the rear wheels, giving them more traction, again at the expense of weight and traction of the front wheels. You also see this during cornering, when you feel pushed to the side of the car on the outside of the turn. When this happens, weight is being transferred or "loaded" onto that side. Often in production car racing with relativly stock suspension, you'll see the inside rear wheel lift enitrely off the ground under cornering, because it doesn't have enough weight over it to keep it on the ground.

That said, let's examine a few of these techniques.

E Brake - This is simply using the E-brake to lock up the rear wheels. It scrubs speed quickly, and isn't that good a technique to use. Of course, nearly all cars have a parking/emergency brake, and it's right there, making this one of the easiest techniques.

Braking Drift - This technique is more advanced, and relies on weight transfer. You continue braking for a short time after you turn into the corner, which loads up the front wheels with lots of weight, causing the rear tires to exceed their traction threshhold through inertia. This drift can be continued by overpowering the rear tires, or by skillful management of the cars inertia through left foot braking. This is most useful in medium and high speed corners, where you have lots of inertia to work with.

Power Oversteer - Pretty simple, using the power of a rear wheel drive, or heavy rear biased all wheel drive car to overpower the rear tires, exceeding their longitudinal traction, which makes their lateral traction threshhold very low. This is useful in low speed corners, where you can't rely on inertia alone to drift the car.

Clutch Kick - This is a technique very similar to power oversteer, it involves disengaging the clutch, building higher RPMs, and dropping the clutch to send an extra jolt of power to the rear tires. This actually has a twofold effect, not only does it overpower the rear tires, but the sudden lifting of the throttle results in less weight transfer to the rear wheels.

Throttle Off - Also known as Kansei drifting in Japan, this is an age old technique for cars with a fairly neutral suspension balance. Lifting the throttle mostly or completely during cornering causes the weight that was on the rear wheels from acceleration to transfer to the front wheels, resulting in a high speed drift of a slight angle, making higher cornering speed possible in some corners. This is very effective when combined with heavy braking to transfer weight to the front wheels. If you watch Rally racing on pavement, this form of drifting is fairly common. This is also the form of drifting used in the anime series Initial D :smile:

There is also a technique called "Shift Lock", but I'm not too familiar on it, so I can't comment. :confused:

Some cars can't use all of these techniques. Rear wheel drive cars can, but front wheel drive cars are limited to E-Brake, Braking Drift and Throttle Off drifting. The only way to drift a FWD car, aside from keeping the E-Brake locked the whole time(Ass Dragging :biggrin: ) is to carefully manage the weight transfer, to keep the rear end lighter than the front end, and keep an oversteering balance.

All Wheel drive cars can use all of these techniques, but maintaining a full drift in an AWD car usually requires overpowering of all four tires, with a few notable exceptions being the Skyline GTR because of it's advanced ATESSA E-TS system, and cars with permanant high bias to the rear wheels, such as the Porsche 911 Turbo.

Hope this clears up the issue for some of you out there.

IT is possible to assdrag FWD cars, I do it a lot on grass....

basically all you have to do is overcome your inertia, on grass/dirt its very easy to loose traction. So if you want some oversteer, you have to do just that.

I could talk about the scientific babble of this but I'll just let you think about it lol......


lets not forget most rally cars now are AWD, basically the natural tendancy of AWD is understeer.....


it is possible but on concrete, a RWD car will hold the drift a lot longer, go faster, and look cooler

:bigthumb:

Shift lock is a technique that involves letting the engines RPM fall in between a downshift, then quickly releasing the clutch. The engines inertia will rapidly slow, or completely lock up the tires, inducing a drift.

There are other less practicle means of inducing a drift as well, such as the dirt drift, where the driver drops his rear wheels off of the pavement before a turn in order to easily slide the rear wheels.

well i guess i'm one of those guys that mostly believes in overpowering then. :icon16:

i knew all of those other techniques existed though...but a couple of them aren't compatible with FWD as well, like clutch kicking. feinting and left foot braking might do the trick though. but personally, i still don't consider an FWD to be able to "drift" in the real sense of the word. guess that's just who i am.

I agree, FWD's SLIDE, not DRIFT. I own both FWD and RWD, when they slide, you can't compare the RWD to the FWD.

What is drifting?


Automotive ballet.

site i found with drifting diagrams:bigthumb: pretty intresting

http://www.driftclub.com/driftdiagrams.htm

forget to explain the heel and toe technique:bigthumb: kinda hard from what i've seen...anyone ever use it or know how:confused:

if you're talking about heel and toe braking i can explain that. it's a technique for double-clutching/matching revs when you downshift. it combines the braking and double-clutching into one step. the idea is to use the toe of your right foot to apply the brakes, and your heel to blip the throttle to match revs (or vice versa with the heel and toe). some cars have the pedals placed so you can use the left side of your foot for the brake and the right side for the throttle, otherwise you need some sort of pedal extensions to do it this way.

for a much better and more in-depth explanation go to www.driversedge.com/dblcltch.htm

Pretty close, but not quite, it doesn't have to do with double clutching (a different technique). Simply heel toe shifting is making use of all three pedals in a manual car, with only two feet. This is used to keep from upsetting the balance of the car while at traction limits in a corner. Example: you enter a corner at high speed but low rpm, in order to acheive top exit speed you need to downshift. Regular two foot shifting will either force you to give up control of the brakes or the throttle. A two foot downshift, however, will upset the balance of the car (since giving up the throttle will make it impossiblt to match rpm's and the wheel and engine rpm's are different, the engine will slow the wheels). Since you are already at your traction limit, changing the balance of the car could cause you to loose control. Therefor, when you downshift in such a situation, you enter the corner braking and controlling the throttle with one foot, clutch with the other. This way you are able to maintain brakes, while downshifting and matching rpm's in order to keep the cars balance. Just note that double clutching is an unrelated technique.

The attached file is a picture that shows this maneuver. The actual orientation of the drivers foot doesnt actually matter, only that he is controlling both pedals. I place my foot entirely sideways.

No offense, don't mean to sound like the asshole who has to contradict you, you were mostly right, just wanted to clear it up a little bit.

no offense taken. we were almost talking about the same thing, but i didn't know how it was used for drifting.

Well, I consider drifting overcoming the lateral traction of the tires ;)

A FWD car can do this through inertia, which would be a "true" drift... Many don't consider powersliding drifting, myself included. It is as important a skill for yaw control in low speed corners however, IMO :)
:biggrin2: :sunglasse :lol:

came across the term yaw while playing GT3....can u explain what that is:smile:

should also make this thread a sticky :wink:

I came accross the term yaw when I was 11 and wanted to fly a plane lol....


yaw is basically

picture your airplane pointed dead north

now without the wings BANKING you can take the rudder and just kick the nose to a flattish turn to either left or right......

so yaw in a car would be which way the nose is pointing and how its changing degrees.

theres more scientifical defintions....... if u need more let me know and Ill copy and paste somethun lol.

yeah i need more scientifical defintions.....

i searched google and yahoo but couldn't fin the "history" of drifting....like itz origins and what not...is there such a thing documented:confused:

S13_Iketani, are you a drifter?

:wink:

Originally posted by Scott 02
S13_Iketani, are you a drifter?

:wink:

not yet. i don't have a drift-worthy car yet. i am very interested in the culture surrounding drifting, and also very interested in the car, but no, i am not a drifter yet because i have only ever done it once and i sucked at it. as soon as i get my 240SX (within the next 3 weeks) and start modifying it for drifting, then i will start to learn how.

Can I ask what modifications you will do to your car? Also I am a bit confused with all the talk on the 240SX. Living in Australia we do not get this model but I have seen a picture of a 240SX and it looked like our S14 200SX (silvia). The models we get are S13 Silvia (import), 180SX (import), S14 200SX (not import) and S15 200SX (only 1999 can be imported, the rest are local). Cheers.

Originally posted by BOOSTD
Can I ask what modifications you will do to your car? Also I am a bit confused with all the talk on the 240SX. Living in Australia we do not get this model but I have seen a picture of a 240SX and it looked like our S14 200SX (silvia). The models we get are S13 Silvia (import), 180SX (import), S14 200SX (not import) and S15 200SX (only 1999 can be imported, the rest are local). Cheers.

we got the 180SX, the S13 Silvia, and the S14 Silvia. in North America, all of them were named 240SX. this is because North America got shafted. instead of the SR20DET or even the CA18DET, all we got was the KA24E 2.4 litre 12 valve SOHC inline-4 or the KA24DE 16 valve DOHC inline 4, producing 140hp and 150hp respectivley. both were non-turbo-charged, as you can see. our "S13" 240SX Coupes were sold with the 180SX face on the coupe body, so essentially, all North American S13 Coupes are technically One-Vias. the 180SX looked exactly the same, except we did not get the Kouki version. our S14 bodies look exactly the same. we did not get the S15.

as for mods, i'm getting a fastback 180SX-body-style S13 240SX. i love Sileighties, so i plan to put an S13 front end on it. engine-wise, i have plans to stick an S14 SR20DET in there, and build it up to around 350hp. Tein or JIC coil-overs, as well as many other assorted suspension pieces, Kaaz LSD, wangan wing, Kouki tails, Trust DD exhaust, Bride seats, blue paint, carbon hood, and many many other undecided parts are on the list too.

Originally posted by S13_Iketani


we got the 180SX, the S13 Silvia, and the S14 Silvia. in North America, all of them were named 240SX. this is because North America got shafted. instead of the SR20DET or even the CA18DET, all we got was the KA24E 2.4 litre 12 valve SOHC inline-4 or the KA24DE 16 valve DOHC inline 4, producing 140hp and 150hp respectivley. both were non-turbo-charged, as you can see. our "S13" 240SX Coupes were sold with the 180SX face on the coupe body, so essentially, all North American S13 Coupes are technically One-Vias. the 180SX looked exactly the same, except we did not get the Kouki version. our S14 bodies look exactly the same. we did not get the S15.



didnt canada get the 200sx with a ca20e single cam and a ca18et single cam turbo? these were s13 i think. Also i think that one came with a V6 but im not sure. i came across this while looking in the shop manual for s13 (since it was the only 240 one that they had in the library.

Originally posted by S13_Iketani


as for mods, i'm getting a fastback 180SX-body-style S13 240SX. i love Sileighties, so i plan to put an S13 front end on it. engine-wise, i have plans to stick an S14 SR20DET in there, and build it up to around 350hp. Tein or JIC coil-overs, as well as many other assorted suspension pieces, Kaaz LSD, wangan wing, Kouki tails, Trust DD exhaust, Bride seats, blue paint, carbon hood, and many many other undecided parts are on the list too.

thats mad doh, man. if you can get good prices email me.

Originally posted by drftk1d


didnt canada get the 200sx with a ca20e single cam and a ca18et single cam turbo? these were s13 i think. Also i think that one came with a V6 but im not sure. i came across this while looking in the shop manual for s13 (since it was the only 240 one that they had in the library.

nope. you're thinking of the S12 Silvia, which was sold over here as the 200SX in the '80s.

oh yeah, and instead of making one post after another, use the little "edit" button at the bottom corner of the first post if you have something to add to it. :smile:

Hello everyone ;-) i am new here but i found myself very interested in this drifting topic....

what i want to say is that no matter what are you guys saying here i think (and know of course) that FWD drift i possible!!!

check this out

http://www.thezcresource.com/gallery/albums/album02/drift.thumb.gif

Yeah, that's a really nice drift but don't bother trying to convince the D1 elitists that front wheel drive cars can drift. It's a waste of time. They're just going to say "oh that's just ass dragging".

Other than that.. enjoy the forum! :smile:

not bad.

and Corey, it IS ass dragging. the wheels are just being dragged sideways. that's just what i call it. doesn't mean i don't have respect for it. that vid was alot better then the one of the guy in the green Civic coupe.

but PLEASE, let's NOT start another FF vs. FR war in this thread. :frown:

Its actualy possible to induce a FWD car into oversteer with out useing the hand brake.

A very hard rear suspension set up, and lots of rear brake bias can actualy make it quite easy to cause the back end to step out upon turn in under heavy braking, at which point its angle relative to the direction of travel can be easily controlled with the throttle. The same can also be done by driving hard into a corner and lifting off the throttle mid corner, in a properly set up car the back will step out, and can then be controlled with the throttle and steering, even to the point of being able to string 2 or more corners together in succesion.

Its very similar to the set up used on a RWD drift car, just taken to a slightly greater extreme.
Clearly being able to over power the back wheels to induce a drift makes it a lot easier, and is the reason RWD drift cars are more common, and are considered more spectacular to watch.

There is also an old fashioned and somewhat ignorant opinion that seems to have reared its ugle head in the world of drifting. Its the false idea that RWD is better than FWD. At extremly high levels of motorsport such as F1, or Le-Mans then RWD has its advantages, but with lower levels, such as drifting when street or lighlty modfied street cars are used then FWD can actualy offer advantages that RWD can not. Such as light weight, and less drive train power loss.

and of course a final point, a RWD drift car tends to more praticle, since the suspension modifcations required are less radical they can be used as a daily driver far easier than a FWD drift car, which will generaly require such radical rear suspension work that it can become dangerous to use for anything but drifting.


Quite simply there is more than one way to cause a car to enter a drift, and in all the videos of Drifting in Japan I have seen the drivers have used several differnt methods during a race, from lift off over steer, to late braking, to over powering the drive wheels.
All the different techiques work well on differnt corners, and allow them to use differnt lines, and show an ablity to use differnt styles, all of which show the driver has more skill and is better driver than someone who has to rely solely on only overpowering the rear wheels.


Now, for those of you who have an urge to get all upset and start ranting that FWD cars can't drift, and that RWD is better, or that only Nissan Silvias/180sxs/200sx/240sx's can drift then stop for a moment, and re-read at least twice what I have written, then go away and think about it.
If you still feel the need to rant your false opinion for the rest of us to roll our eyes at then feel free.
But be warned. If I see it I will Nuke it.

Don't they do drifting in those sprintcars down in Tennesee? they've been 'doriftoing' since the 60's.

Originally posted by ugly kid jon
Don't they do drifting in those sprintcars down in Tennesee? they've been 'doriftoing' since the 60's.

don't even start with that. we're talking about drifting, the singular motorsport in Japan where all they do is drift and are judged for their style and how well they execute the drift.

other motorsports may use drifting in some forms, but that stuff belongs in it's respective forums.

so they have judges with score cards, like figure skating.

You should be banned for even comparing drifting to figure skating.

Originally posted by Sluttypatton
You should be banned for even comparing drifting to figure skating.

Why? It's kind of a good comparison. Speed Skating may be faster, but figure skating looks "better"

O.K. so maybe it's not the greatest comparison...

Originally posted by Sluttypatton
You should be banned for even comparing drifting to figure skating.

please forgive me, I will try to be more narrow-minded from now on

Originally posted by ugly kid jon


please forgive me, I will try to be more narrow-minded from now on

maybe take the racoon out of your ass while you're at it?

it's not all style. it takes alot of skill to get your car completely sideways around a corner and grab it back again. drifting is a mini-motorsport in itself, which is used in other forms of motorsport, but there IS a series and a HUGE following that centres JUST around drifting, and that's mostly what this forum is about. it's not about being narrow-minded, it's about keeping to the topic at hand. other forms of motorsport, while they may use drifting, have their own forums. don't be a prick and we won't be pricks back. :bigthumb:

how about...drifting is to autocross(anytype of track racing) as moto freestyle is to motocross....i think that would be the best one

It is really a strange venture. The goal is not to beat any opponents to a finish line. It is about controlling a car past the normal limits. In a drift, the driver has to use all their ability in an attempt to keep their cars on the road. The sport predominantly involves taking turns at high speeds. The challenge lies in taking the turns sideways. Spinning the rear tires while balancing the clutch, brake, and handbrake is involved. A drifter can take a turn at a ninety-degree angle, power his way through it, and come out the other side perfectly. While not too popular in the US, it is very popular in Japan. Enthusiasts watch drifters for the thrill of the senses. Seeing this high-powered car do unconventional things while hearing the tires screech as the back end looses contact with the pavement is what the sport is all about. The Silvia is ideal for drifters. It is small, light, rear-wheel drive, and has an excellent weight distribution. The driver should beware though. Drifts put a great deal of stress on the car. The transmission takes a particular beating. Maintaining the car and driving properly is necessary. Athough still not popular in the US the comeback of rear-wheel drive cars should induce a newfound interest in this field. The more people interested, the better.

the comeback of RWD :confused: where did it go :screwy: